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Hi, John. I think the guys are bluffing. The percentage under $70K is probably more like 40-50%. Take look at this chart from the BASH on 2017 sales. Almost 80% of 2017 sales were Stingrays or Grand Sports. Only 17% are verts, (which sell for a bit more). I am guessing the average Stingray sold for $65K or less, and the average GS sold for $75K or less. That means that probably ~70% of sales had to have been $75K or less, making room for the dudes who bought ALL the goo-gaa's and paid "the big potato". The Z06's probably sold for about $85-90K on average, so they raise the total average a bit, but they only represent about 20% of total sales.
It is not what it sold for, but what the MSRP of the vehicle sold was - that is the benchmark for C8 pricing. Many people got 12-20% off MSRP for 2017-2019. No one got much off of MSRP for 2014, and none will for early C8 production.
Other than a 1LT Grand Sport Coupe with zero options, no Grand Sport has an MSRP of less than $70k; similarly, no Z51 stingray with an A8 and 2LT or above has an MSRP under $70k; no convertible besides a Base Stingray has an MSRP of under $70k - so 20-25% seems a lot closer than 40-50%.
And your point is ? The ZL1 Camero has almost 200 more horsepower and yet the Grand Sport is within .12 seconds ! Put a Lingenfelter cam in the Grand Sport for $9K and it's no contest. This a comparison of a great chassis GT car with a 650 HP engine in a 4000# stock car.
if you use your logic, nobody should be buying Porsche 911 GT3's either, since the ZL1 is likely faster than it. The problem with the ZL1 is it's a brute. It is about as useful on the street as a NASCAR stocker because it will knock your fillings out in the first mile. On top of that it is butt ugly, inside and out. There are a lot of reasons people buy cars - lap times really don't rank that high with most. If you really want to compare Camaro ZL1 to a Corvette, look to a Z06. In today's market, the difference in price is only about $5K.
Like the original poster implied, and GM's actions have indicated: 'The ZL1 gets it done, and it is a good value'.
Yes, GM has successfully gone out if its way to wring out the Camaro numbers, lousy ride and all.
Last edited by johnglenntwo; 06-25-2018 at 09:11 PM.
It is not what it sold for, but what the MSRP of the vehicle sold was - that is the benchmark for C8 pricing. Many people got 12-20% off MSRP for 2017-2019. No one got much off of MSRP for 2014, and none will for early C8 production.
Other than a 1LT Grand Sport Coupe with zero options, no Grand Sport has an MSRP of less than $70k; similarly, no Z51 stingray with an A8 and 2LT or above has an MSRP under $70k; no convertible besides a Base Stingray has an MSRP of under $70k - so 20-25% seems a lot closer than 40-50%.
I paid $62K cash for my Z51 Stingray in 2013 which included 2LT interior, MSRC, trick exhaust, eDiff and a few other widgets. This was right at MY2014 MSRP. The price was only a few dollars higher than the MY2013 C6 Z51 model, however at that time C6's were heavily discounted. The C7 Stingray MSRP went up $5K for MY2015 because of demand.
As you so succinctly point out, most 2017 and newer C7's are selling for at least $10K off MSRP. As a car model ages, MSRP becomes more and more fictional. My point is these sales prices are more important for setting both the C8 Introductory MSRP and sale prices than people realize - GM HAS TO HAVE good sales in YEAR ONE. As a result, C8 introductory pricing may be lower than many people think.
Having watched the market closely in 2013, it was apparent to me that a lot of high-end buyers were content to wait until the Z06 was introduced, (the MY when the higher-end models would become available was unknown at the time), as were many who waited for a Grand Sport body style. But since the base Stingray and Z51 were the ONLY models available in the first year, many buyers held off. GM was also trying to sell a bunch of C6 427 convertibles for about the same price as the C7 Z51. The same could very well happen next year, if the only C8 available is the base model, and GM continues to sell the C7 Stingray, Z06 and ZR1.
PRICE is not COST. It is set at what the market will bear. The C8 ME has great appeal for a lot of us, BUT AT LEAST as many buyers may be put off by issues such as no manual transmission, or no rear hatchback for luggage space, or even taillights. The first year is key to the marketing success of the new model, however, so early buyers may very well get a better deal than those who wait. Of course if you wait long enough (say MY2024+) you may get an even better discount, but then many of us will have become fertilizer by then.
Why does a maxed out ZR1 cost $85,000 more than a base StingRay at $58,000? Is it because the base Stingray is ugly/
Does anyone really believe that it costs GM $85,000 more to build a ZR1 vs a base StingRay?
Yes, I believe it. It's called the learning curve slope. For a product like a car with sales volume of 30,000 - 40,000 a year, that slope is about 65%. For a car that sells 1,500 units a year, that slope is more like 90%. That explains why GM can sell a car with 90% of the content of the top of the line for 1/2 the cost. It is also why GM can sell a high end ME coupe for ~1/3 what Ferrari or McLaren can - sales volume alone creates value via "the economies of scale" which, in manufacturing, is mathematically defined by the learning curve slope.
See these illustrations for why building 10 times as many sports cars as any one else in the business is so important to understanding GM's Corvette pricing strategy:
OK, the reason the learning slope ITSELF is greater for a high volume car like a Stingray is that the fixed start-up costs are amortized over many, many more units. For a car like the ZR1, (which may have required 60-80% of the original Stingray's engineering resources for the LT5 and the other changes required to make the car perform like a GTLM car), these costs will be amortized over a much smaller # of units, perhaps as few as 3000 total.
Last edited by dcbingaman; 06-27-2018 at 03:31 AM.
Reason: to add a point
Yes, I believe it. It's called the learning curve slope. For a product like a car with sales volume of 30,000 - 40,000 a year, that slope is about 65%. For a car that sells 1,500 units a year, that slope is more like 90%. That explains why GM can sell a car with 90% of the content of the top of the line for 1/2 the cost. It is also why GM can sell a high end ME coupe for ~1/3 what Ferrari or McLaren can - sales volume alone creates value via "the economies of scale" which, in manufacturing, is mathematically defined by the learning curve slope.
See these illustrations for why building 10 times as many sports cars as any one else in the business is so important to understanding GM's Corvette pricing strategy:
OK, the reason the learning slope ITSELF is greater for a high volume car like a Stingray is that the fixed start-up costs are amortized over many, many more units. For a car like the ZR1, (which may have required 60-80% of the original Stingray's engineering resources for the LT5 and the other changes required to make the car perform like a GTLM car), these costs will be amortized over a much smaller # of units, perhaps as few as 3000 total.
Why does a maxed out ZR1 cost $85,000 more than a base StingRay at $58,000? Is it because the base Stingray is ugly/
Does anyone really believe that it costs GM $85,000 more to build a ZR1 vs a base StingRay?
Corvette is GMs highest profit margin car. A base model Corvette only costs GM about 5K more to produce than an Impala. Price is also based on yearly units produced.
And your point is ? The ZL1 Camero has almost 200 more horsepower and yet the Grand Sport is within .12 seconds ! Put a Lingenfelter cam in the Grand Sport for $9K and it's no contest. This a comparison of a great chassis GT car with a 650 HP engine in a 4000# stock car.
if you use your logic, nobody should be buying Porsche 911 GT3's either, since the ZL1 is likely faster than it. The problem with the ZL1 is it's a brute. It is about as useful on the street as a NASCAR stocker because it will knock your fillings out in the first mile. On top of that it is butt ugly, inside and out. There are a lot of reasons people buy cars - lap times really don't rank that high with most. If you really want to compare Camaro ZL1 to a Corvette, look to a Z06. In today's market, the difference in price is only about $5K.
Your thinking of a ZL1 1LE that has a harsh ride. The ZL1 is about 20 K cheaper than a ZO6 MSRP vs MSRP. Bang for buck on the street is a ZL1 with the 10 speed auto and watch it hang right with a 1LZ ZO6 and not overheat. The C7 is definitely a looker, but the non 1LE ZL1 isn't to far behind the vette in the looks department.
I have never driven one, but I was going by what the Car & Driver reviewers. "Great car for the track. but rides better on the trailer than on the street."
The Z06 thermal problems are over-blown (sorry for the awful pun). 95% of the problem has been addressed by GM already, and the rest can be addressed by investing in a good aftermarket truck transmission cooler, a supplemental engine cooler and some new plumbing. The Corvette is also ~500 points lighter. The Camaro is much more of a NASCAR-style stock car that is barely streetable than a pure sports or GT car.
As for looks, "Beauty is skin deep, but ugly goes right down to the bone". It is relatively easy to make a Corvette or a Camaro fast enough with aftermarket dod-dads to beat just about anything stock out there, but you'll NEVER make a Camaro look like a sports car. When it comes to tracking, all one has to do is spend three days with Ron Fellows in Nevada, and put a new set of Hoosier slicks on a Z51 Stingray, and you can beat both the ZL1 and the Z06 around most tracks on their stock tires, (Pilot Sport Cup2 tires being an exception).
It comes down to what your goals are. The Camaro ZL1 is a well-engineered car and an over-achiever at the track, but it still comes with a lot of baggage. It is definitely a specialty item - you won't see many at your local Chevy dealer, and you'll probably pay close to MSRP due to it's limited availability.
I second the engineering and research cost of the ZR1, as to why its almost twice as much as a base Stingray.
1. The extensive use of carbon fiber. The Carbon 65 Z06 isn't that much cheaper than the ZR1, only about $16,000, which lessens the gap if you add the Z07 package.
2. The ZR1, is the only 200MPH Corvette. It was sad that for a few years, the CTS-V was GMs only 200MPH car.
I had the occasion to be at my local Chevrolet dealer just yesterday. They had a Camaro (Convert.) and a Corvette (Convert.) side by side. There is not comparison in design! No comparison in the effect the cars just sitting there plays on the viewer. The Corvette is hands down a better looking car.
and the Camaro is old and tired "looking"... it has all the tech... but there are so many on the road...they need to refresh the looks... the tech is all there under the skin... but a complete new look...with same mechanicals... and they have the "low end Vette"... I know its not a Vette but the FE "hero product". and then a ME hero product in the Vette...rounds out the price structure...
the camaro has been getting uncomfortably close to the Vette in the FE configuration for the past few years (performance and price wise)...
It is not. At least when measured against similar high end, low production cars.
C4: 13 years
C5: 8 years
C6: 8 years
C7: 5 years and counting
Jaguar F-Type: 6 years and counting
Mitsubishi 3000GT: 9 years
Nissan GTR: 10 years
Viper (Gen 1): 11 years
Viper (Gen 2): 8 years
Viper (Gen 3): 5 years
Mercedes SL (R230): 11 years
Acura NSX (original): 16 years
Ending the C7 with the 2021 model year would make sense, especially when weighed against that engine estimate report that got leaked a few months back.
If they bring the ME to market in 2019 as a 2020 model, that gives them 2 more years to recoup investment on the ZR1 and then introduce a new front engine C8 in 2021 as a 2022 model. We'll probably see the Z06 get dropped before then though. Maybe the Stingray too. I'd have to go pull the numbers, but I think most of the 2012-2013 C6 sales were Grand Sports rather than base models.
C6 was produced for 9 model years, not 8 (2005--2013).
I had the occasion to be at my local Chevrolet dealer just yesterday. They had a Camaro (Convert.) and a Corvette (Convert.) side by side. There is not comparison in design! No comparison in the effect the cars just sitting there plays on the viewer. The Corvette is hands down a better looking car.
and this is why I think the C7 is the end of the front-engine Corvette. It makes sense for GM to diversify the Corvette and Camaro nameplates to not only allow for the Corvette to open the envelope for more performance and even bolder design, but it also opens up the Camaro to be more adventurous in it's design without worrying about stepping on the Corvette's toes. I see the performance car breakdown of GM as follows:
Chevrolet:
Camaro: Front Engine Muscle/Sport Coupe - $25k-$70k
Corvette: Mid Engine Sport/Supercar - $60k-$150k
Cadillac:
[Unknown Name]: Front Engine Luxury Sports Coupe - $90k-$150k
and this is why I think the C7 is the end of the front-engine Corvette. It makes sense for GM to diversify the Corvette and Camaro nameplates to not only allow for the Corvette to open the envelope for more performance and even bolder design, but it also opens up the Camaro to be more adventurous in it's design without worrying about stepping on the Corvette's toes. I see the performance car breakdown of GM as follows:
Chevrolet:
Camaro: Front Engine Muscle/Sport Coupe - $25k-$70k
Corvette: Mid Engine Sport/Supercar - $60k-$150k
Cadillac:
[Unknown Name]: Front Engine Luxury Sports Coupe - $90k-$150k
Interesting times
this is on point and insightful... especially with what we're seeing the trend of the ford eco boost and chevy turbo 4cyls.... providing very high performance in a small package.. we may see a downsizing of the camaro..with a turbo v6 being the top end.. and keeping prices down.. as well as the ME Vette moving up in price.. separating the 2 more... I know its a corvette forum.. but in a marketing sense.. the top end camaro ZL1 is basically a corvette "numbers" car... chevy is prolly losing sales of Vette to the top end camaros... and a separation will actually breathe some life into both models.. this turbo trend is really interesting and exciting...
I just read this thread and found it very interesting. I don't see a ME as a replacement for the FE C8 but rather as an addition. Corvette has the low end sports car market to itself. Why would they want to abandon that place in the market. Right now there is a huge range of prices for Corvette enthusiasts. There are folks like me who need to keep the price on the low end and those who can and will part with the big bucks for a truly special high end sports car. Corvette's reputation is one of a great value. I don't see them giving that away. It wouldn't make any sense.
What I really find astounding is the hatred here for the Camaro. I drive a 2016 Stingray (LT1). It is a daily driver for me. I really love my car and wouldn't trade it for anything. It is a bare bones Stingray without many options.
My husband just bought a Camaro ZL1 as a daily driver. Both are great cars in their own right but they are not the same car. My husband doesn't like how low the Corvette is. He does not find the ride in the Camaro punishing but he does not have the track package. I have heard the ride is more punishing with the track package. He also likes all the creature comforts that came in the Camaro for a lower price than my Stingray. While the sticker price on the Camaro was about the same as my Stingray, the price out the door was lower. The Camaro is plenty fast and handles well enough for daily driving.
I am not understanding the hatred here. The reason there are so many cars on the market is that there are lots of different people who like different things.
06-25-2018, 07:43 AM
and this is why I think the C7 is the end of the front-engine Corvette. It makes sense for GM to diversify the Corvette and Camaro nameplates to not only allow for the Corvette to open the envelope for more performance and even bolder design, but it also opens up the Camaro to be more adventurous in it's design without worrying about stepping on the Corvette's toes. I see the performance car breakdown of GM as follows:
