ME Engine Musings and other Whispers
03-15-2018, 08:51 PM
#1
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ME Engine Musings and other Whispers
I've been hearing things again... and not in a good way.
So the documents for the two TT V8's were correct. GM has abandoned doing a large NA Flat Plane Crank V8 from what I can gather. This makes me sad, I wanted to see a naturally aspirated flat plane instead of two run of the mill DOHC V8 Twin Turbos.
The 4.4L TT V8 is the base engine, and the other TT V8 (I forget the displacement right now) is the high end. Looks like the lower end engine is looking to be a Z06 replacement (making 600 something horsepower) and the larger one will be in the 800 horsepower range.
I know for a while there was a rumor that an LT1 (or the next gen version of that) would be stuck in the ME and offer a manual option. I don't think this is the case anymore with that engine being saved for the C8 front engine car (which continues the Stingray line)
I don't think the transmission is a DCT, with cars like the M5 going back to traditional automatics GM might have been on the forefront using a robust version of the regular torque converter automatic. Early on Allison was brought in to consult, and they do heavy truck traditional automatics.
Anyway, that's what I hear, sorta disappointing for me as I was hoping the ME would have something unique instead it looks to just be your average run of the mill mid-engine low end super car.
My interest now shifts to the front engine C8 and the successor to the LT1. Which should come out in 2021 as a 2022 MY.
So the documents for the two TT V8's were correct. GM has abandoned doing a large NA Flat Plane Crank V8 from what I can gather. This makes me sad, I wanted to see a naturally aspirated flat plane instead of two run of the mill DOHC V8 Twin Turbos.
The 4.4L TT V8 is the base engine, and the other TT V8 (I forget the displacement right now) is the high end. Looks like the lower end engine is looking to be a Z06 replacement (making 600 something horsepower) and the larger one will be in the 800 horsepower range.
I know for a while there was a rumor that an LT1 (or the next gen version of that) would be stuck in the ME and offer a manual option. I don't think this is the case anymore with that engine being saved for the C8 front engine car (which continues the Stingray line)
I don't think the transmission is a DCT, with cars like the M5 going back to traditional automatics GM might have been on the forefront using a robust version of the regular torque converter automatic. Early on Allison was brought in to consult, and they do heavy truck traditional automatics.
Anyway, that's what I hear, sorta disappointing for me as I was hoping the ME would have something unique instead it looks to just be your average run of the mill mid-engine low end super car.
My interest now shifts to the front engine C8 and the successor to the LT1. Which should come out in 2021 as a 2022 MY.
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03-18-2018, 10:25 AM
3 Flavors, LT1, 4.6TT & 5.4TT
LT1 will transition to N/A Dohc at some point down the line
Attachment 48353772
DCT only Made by TREMEC
Attachment 48353773
Current ZL-1 10 speed is potentially being evaluated for trans-axle re-config
LT1 will transition to N/A Dohc at some point down the line
Attachment 48353772
DCT only Made by TREMEC
Attachment 48353773
Current ZL-1 10 speed is potentially being evaluated for trans-axle re-config
03-15-2018, 09:09 PM
#2
Melting Slicks
ME will have a dual clutch, that is what I been told and I trust my engeneiring resource. M5 is front engine sedan makes sense for BMW to save money and use the same trans throughout the 5 series line.
All manufactures are going T or TT to meet regulations. Only few P. GT3, lambo and the Audi R8 use NA motors. If their is a Front engine C8 corvette, it would have a TT.
All manufactures are going T or TT to meet regulations. Only few P. GT3, lambo and the Audi R8 use NA motors. If their is a Front engine C8 corvette, it would have a TT.
Last edited by fasttoys; 03-15-2018 at 09:10 PM.
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elegant (03-16-2018)
03-15-2018, 09:22 PM
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ME will have a dual clutch, that is what I been told and I trust my engeneiring resource. M5 is front engine sedan makes sense for BMW to save money and use the same trans throughout the 5 series line.
All manufactures are going T or TT to meet regulations. Only few P. GT3, lambo and the Audi R8 use NA motors. If their is a Front engine C8 corvette, it would have a TT.
All manufactures are going T or TT to meet regulations. Only few P. GT3, lambo and the Audi R8 use NA motors. If their is a Front engine C8 corvette, it would have a TT.
Regarding what people call a DCT and what ACTUALLY is a DCT, a quick shifting manually selectable automatic doesn't have to be a DCT. In fact there are actually very few DCTs outside of the VW group and BMW (I'm struggling to think who else has one). Maybe the Ford GT? Regardless all those are built by Getrag, I think only VW does one in house. Most other ones are a type of sequential box (single clutch) or are actually REALLY fast shifting automatics. There are also the "multi-clutch" automatics out there like the Ford Focus transmission, but those are not really the DCTs people talk about when then think of sports cars.
I'm not going to be surprised if I'm wrong (DCTs in my opinion are better), but I'd think you'd hear about a DCT by now because it's something GM would buy not make (and if you're buying you are buying from Getrag). You don't develop a transmission for one car. And buying things causes a lot more leaks than making things. Remember GM just did a joint venture for 9-Speed FWD and 10-Speed RWD transmissions with Ford and that was for mainstream cars (basically the entire GM portfolio). So it doesn't make sense to pay for by your self a DCT.
03-15-2018, 09:49 PM
#4
Le Mans Master
Ferrari, Lamborghini, Bugatti, Aston Martin, Mercedes AMG,.....
03-15-2018, 09:53 PM
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Almost all those guys are using Getrag (so is BMW). It's the same transmission (well variants of the same one).
I think McLaren doesn't, they got someone unique. Some of the VW ones are build by BorgWarner, except Porsche which is ZF.
Either way, those guys are all buying (except VW), but VW has, as anyone knows, massive economies of scale.
I think VW only designs them, they still buy the completed unit from a supplier. Anyway, that market is pretty small. So you'd hear about it if GM was knocking on Getrag or BorgWarners door.
I guess that's my point, this would have gotten out. Based on the leaks so far for ZERV, its the most unkept secret ever. I'm shocked GM can't fix the leaky siv they have going on.
I think McLaren doesn't, they got someone unique. Some of the VW ones are build by BorgWarner, except Porsche which is ZF.
Either way, those guys are all buying (except VW), but VW has, as anyone knows, massive economies of scale.
I think VW only designs them, they still buy the completed unit from a supplier. Anyway, that market is pretty small. So you'd hear about it if GM was knocking on Getrag or BorgWarners door.
I guess that's my point, this would have gotten out. Based on the leaks so far for ZERV, its the most unkept secret ever. I'm shocked GM can't fix the leaky siv they have going on.
Last edited by LT1 Z51; 03-15-2018 at 09:57 PM.
03-16-2018, 10:00 AM
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Personally, I'm glad they dumped the flat plane crank idea, given how they're shaking themselves to pieces in the GT 350.
GM doesn't need a reliability issue on its new mills. And it doesn't need a FP to attain its perf goals.
GM doesn't need a reliability issue on its new mills. And it doesn't need a FP to attain its perf goals.
03-16-2018, 11:07 AM
#9
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The Audi R8 isn't terribly expensive ($165k). Huracan also isn't that outlandish ($200k). The old Ford GT also wasn't terribly expensive ($150k new, that would be $188k adjusted for inflation).
The Alfa 4C is positively cheap, granted it has a 4 banger.
So If it drops in at $150k, it's pretty run of the mill to me. Porsche 911 Turbos also cost around that ($160k).
The Alfa 4C is positively cheap, granted it has a 4 banger.
So If it drops in at $150k, it's pretty run of the mill to me. Porsche 911 Turbos also cost around that ($160k).
03-16-2018, 11:07 AM
#10
Melting Slicks
DOHC or TT don't fit in a front engine Corvette. This is why the C7 uses a OHV and Supercharged engines. These things can't change as the hood profile is what it is. Since the front engined C8 is more or less a refreshed C7 it's going to have the same constraints.
Which could be a reason after 2022 they go ME only. The car would need to be redesinged.
Regarding what people call a DCT and what ACTUALLY is a DCT, a quick shifting manually selectable automatic doesn't have to be a DCT. In fact there are actually very few DCTs outside of the VW group and BMW (I'm struggling to think who else has one). Maybe the Ford GT? Regardless all those are built by Getrag, I think only VW does one in house. Most other ones are a type of sequential box (single clutch) or are actually REALLY fast shifting automatics. There are also the "multi-clutch" automatics out there like the Ford Focus transmission, but those are not really the DCTs people talk about when then think of sports cars.
Wong. Ferrari uses a dual clutch in the 458 & the new 488. Started it in the California & has migrated to all their lines. Lambo, P, Audi & Buggati are all under VW. Which all use simular variarients of a DCT box. I have owned all those brands except the Buggati, Been in one and its fast. IMO its just over the top. Stupid money. The Veyron's seven-speed, twin-clutch Ricardo automatic costs over $120,000 to replace. When it first came out: The Veyron uses special Michelin PAX tires found on no other car. They were designed specifically for the Bugatti's capabilities and can only be removed from the wheels in France, a process that costs $70,000. The tires themselves cost $17,000 per set
I'm not going to be surprised if I'm wrong (DCTs in my opinion are better), but I'd think you'd hear about a DCT by now because it's something GM would buy not make (and if you're buying you are buying from Getrag). You don't develop a transmission for one car. And buying things causes a lot more leaks than making things. Remember GM just did a joint venture for 9-Speed FWD and 10-Speed RWD transmissions with Ford and that was for mainstream cars (basically the entire GM portfolio). So it doesn't make sense to pay for by your self a DCT.
Which could be a reason after 2022 they go ME only. The car would need to be redesinged.
Regarding what people call a DCT and what ACTUALLY is a DCT, a quick shifting manually selectable automatic doesn't have to be a DCT. In fact there are actually very few DCTs outside of the VW group and BMW (I'm struggling to think who else has one). Maybe the Ford GT? Regardless all those are built by Getrag, I think only VW does one in house. Most other ones are a type of sequential box (single clutch) or are actually REALLY fast shifting automatics. There are also the "multi-clutch" automatics out there like the Ford Focus transmission, but those are not really the DCTs people talk about when then think of sports cars.
Wong. Ferrari uses a dual clutch in the 458 & the new 488. Started it in the California & has migrated to all their lines. Lambo, P, Audi & Buggati are all under VW. Which all use simular variarients of a DCT box. I have owned all those brands except the Buggati, Been in one and its fast. IMO its just over the top. Stupid money. The Veyron's seven-speed, twin-clutch Ricardo automatic costs over $120,000 to replace. When it first came out: The Veyron uses special Michelin PAX tires found on no other car. They were designed specifically for the Bugatti's capabilities and can only be removed from the wheels in France, a process that costs $70,000. The tires themselves cost $17,000 per set
I'm not going to be surprised if I'm wrong (DCTs in my opinion are better), but I'd think you'd hear about a DCT by now because it's something GM would buy not make (and if you're buying you are buying from Getrag). You don't develop a transmission for one car. And buying things causes a lot more leaks than making things. Remember GM just did a joint venture for 9-Speed FWD and 10-Speed RWD transmissions with Ford and that was for mainstream cars (basically the entire GM portfolio). So it doesn't make sense to pay for by your self a DCT.
ME: Will happen unless the economy/GM tanks or a asteroid hits the earth.
DCT: Will happen, they increase the price to absorb the cost.
Manual: Not sure, Wish
FE: after 2023 not sure FE could be toast
ME Engine: Will have T or a TT. A NA motor I am not sure We can only hope. Would not make sense if they have two TT motors then create another way to mount a NA motor unless it was the same motor without the TT. Engine mounting points and size constraints in a ME frame is a pain to engineer around.
Last edited by fasttoys; 03-16-2018 at 11:28 AM.
03-16-2018, 11:11 AM
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Read some of my post, not sure which one. There is an article about GM going to one of the trans manufactures using a off the shelf DCT for the next ME. It will be a 7 speed DCT acording to what i read. Not sure they can fit the larger gear version in the new ME plus its starts getting heavy which is counter productive in a sports car. Torq converters in a ME I not sure that has ever been made before. Need someone to find one I am not sure that would make any sense or could be done.
ME: Will happen unless the economy/GM tanks or a asteroid hits the earth.
DCT: Will happen, they increase the price to absorb the cost.
Manual: Not sure, Wish
FE: after 2023 not sure FE could be toast
ME: will have T or a TT. A NA motor I am not sure could only hope.
ME: Will happen unless the economy/GM tanks or a asteroid hits the earth.
DCT: Will happen, they increase the price to absorb the cost.
Manual: Not sure, Wish
FE: after 2023 not sure FE could be toast
ME: will have T or a TT. A NA motor I am not sure could only hope.
I disagree on the lack of a C8 FE, it will happen eventually. Worst case, GM extends the life of the C7 Stingray (dropping the Z06 and ZR1) a few more years once the ME car comes out. We already know there is a 2020 and 2021 planned for the C7.
I just can't see the ME coming in that much under $100k for the base engine, with the "real" engine being $150k.
No one does a T V8, all of them are TT, so saying T unless you talk about a V6 is redundant.
Last edited by LT1 Z51; 03-16-2018 at 11:12 AM.
03-16-2018, 11:28 AM
#12
Drifting
I haven't seen your DCT post, like I said, I haven't heard anything but my transmission contacts are pretty thin. So if they are buying an off the shelf Getrag, that makes sense. You'd think there would be more chatter, but maybe GM is not having them change anything so it's just a purchasing discussion.
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elegant (03-16-2018)
03-16-2018, 12:12 PM
#13
I haven't seen your DCT post, like I said, I haven't heard anything but my transmission contacts are pretty thin. So if they are buying an off the shelf Getrag, that makes sense. You'd think there would be more chatter, but maybe GM is not having them change anything so it's just a purchasing discussion.
I disagree on the lack of a C8 FE, it will happen eventually. Worst case, GM extends the life of the C7 Stingray (dropping the Z06 and ZR1) a few more years once the ME car comes out. We already know there is a 2020 and 2021 planned for the C7.
I just can't see the ME coming in that much under $100k for the base engine, with the "real" engine being $150k.
No one does a T V8, all of them are TT, so saying T unless you talk about a V6 is redundant.
I disagree on the lack of a C8 FE, it will happen eventually. Worst case, GM extends the life of the C7 Stingray (dropping the Z06 and ZR1) a few more years once the ME car comes out. We already know there is a 2020 and 2021 planned for the C7.
I just can't see the ME coming in that much under $100k for the base engine, with the "real" engine being $150k.
No one does a T V8, all of them are TT, so saying T unless you talk about a V6 is redundant.
I believe that the ubiquitous OHV LT series V8 will live on in the FME corvette stingray, however long the life-cycle lasts in parallel with the ME Corvette.
It is possible that a large displacement small block V8 could fit under the hood of the current C7, with minor changes. The monster Mercury 7.0 SB4 DOHC V8 has a lower overall height than the LT4, is LS7 based, is slightly longer than an LS7, and only slightly wider. Just a pipe dream, I know, but it could fit.
03-16-2018, 12:16 PM
#14
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The transmission/transaxle pictured in the CAD drawing is almost identical in external appearance to an existing ZF unit (as far as can be determined from blowing up the CAD and looking at it), right down to the number of bolts and fastener placement on the top cover. There's a big thread where it was discussed, from external appearances it looks like a variant of the ZF PDK.
But, I thought Porsche not ZF owned the design and therefore ZF couldn't sell it to others. The 7-speed manual Porsche uses is also based on the PDK box.
03-16-2018, 01:11 PM
#15
Drifting
Well I can see Tadge wanting the Porsche Transmission, he already has a Porsche steering gear (many components are shared).
But, I thought Porsche not ZF owned the design and therefore ZF couldn't sell it to others. The 7-speed manual Porsche uses is also based on the PDK box.
But, I thought Porsche not ZF owned the design and therefore ZF couldn't sell it to others. The 7-speed manual Porsche uses is also based on the PDK box.
It might also be a way to get both a manual and a DCT option into the C8 with minimal effort, as Porsche did.
https://www.corvetteforum.com/forums...post1596312478
https://www.corvetteforum.com/forums...post1596318499
Last edited by RedLS6; 03-16-2018 at 01:14 PM.
03-16-2018, 04:02 PM
#16
Melting Slicks
I haven't seen your DCT post, like I said, I haven't heard anything but my transmission contacts are pretty thin. So if they are buying an off the shelf Getrag, that makes sense. You'd think there would be more chatter, but maybe GM is not having them change anything so it's just a purchasing discussion.
I disagree on the lack of a C8 FE, it will happen eventually. Worst case, GM extends the life of the C7 Stingray (dropping the Z06 and ZR1) a few more years once the ME car comes out. We already know there is a 2020 and 2021 planned for the C7.
I just can't see the ME coming in that much under $100k for the base engine, with the "real" engine being $150k.
No one does a T V8, all of them are TT, so saying T unless you talk about a V6 is redundant.
I disagree on the lack of a C8 FE, it will happen eventually. Worst case, GM extends the life of the C7 Stingray (dropping the Z06 and ZR1) a few more years once the ME car comes out. We already know there is a 2020 and 2021 planned for the C7.
I just can't see the ME coming in that much under $100k for the base engine, with the "real" engine being $150k.
No one does a T V8, all of them are TT, so saying T unless you talk about a V6 is redundant.
Four years ago, Chevrolet Corvette manual-transmission supplier Tremec aspired to achieve greater global reach. Instead of reinventing the helical gear to enter the thriving dual-clutch automatic transmission (DCT) business, this Mexico-based manufacturer simply shopped for a company that already possessed the expertise it needed. Tremec was drawn to Hoerbiger Drivetrain Mechatronics because of that Belgian firm’s proven relationships with Mercedes-AMG, Ferrari, and McLaren. A deal was cut and Tremec now owns Hoerbiger lock, stock, and gear hobber. The prodigy from these two parental units is Tremec’s TR-9007 family of dual-clutch automatics that can be assembled in rear-drive, all-wheel-drive, and transaxle configurations. Prototypes of the mid-engine 2019 Chevrolet Corvette in light camouflage captured by our photographers are evidence of the testing for drivability and durability of the Tremec transaxles slated for customer delivery in 2018. TREMEC TR-9007 Dual Clutch Automatic Transmission Tremec engineering documents show a 9000-rpm maximum input speed and a 664-lb-ft torque capacity, both of which should cover C8 Corvette needs quite nicely. The TR-9007’s die-cast aluminum housing contains seven forward gears, three of which are overdrive ratios, and a 5.6:1 ratio spread. Tremec describes the twin engagement devices as “virtually dry wet clutches.” DCTs use helical gears instead of a conventional automatic’s planetary gears. Because hydraulic and friction losses are generally lower than other automatics, DCTs can improve efficiency. There is no interruption of torque delivery during upshifts, so DCTs typically beat the stick-shift alternative in acceleration. Our suspicion is that General Motors will not follow our suggestion to Save the Manuals due to the cost and complexity of offering two transmissions. In other words, Tremec’s TR-9007 seven-speed DCT will be the one and only transmission available when the 2019 Corvette arrives in less than two years.
Last edited by fasttoys; 12-19-2017 at 03:07 AM.
03-16-2018, 04:17 PM
#17
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The problem is torque:
http://www.tremec.com/anexos/Literat...ansmission.pdf
Even the 7009 tops out at 900 Nm (663 ft-lb). What's the ZR1 throwing down? 751 (ft-lb)!
But GM has gotten the TR-6070 which when designed only supported 700 Nm (516 ft-lb). Apparently by changing the gear ratio they can up the Torque
http://www.tremec.com/anexos/Literat...EC_TR-6070.pdf
http://www.tremec.com/anexos/Literat...ansmission.pdf
Even the 7009 tops out at 900 Nm (663 ft-lb). What's the ZR1 throwing down? 751 (ft-lb)!
But GM has gotten the TR-6070 which when designed only supported 700 Nm (516 ft-lb). Apparently by changing the gear ratio they can up the Torque
http://www.tremec.com/anexos/Literat...EC_TR-6070.pdf
03-16-2018, 07:41 PM
#18
Tremec is just now firing up the wilxhom plant for 9007 DCTs. They are going into the 2019 GT500 as well.
Remember the Torque specs are rated at GRVW
Remember the Torque specs are rated at GRVW
Last edited by conceptmachine; 03-16-2018 at 07:46 PM.
03-16-2018, 08:31 PM
#19
It's not the Tremec:
http://www.tremec.com/anexos/File/TR...R-9007.DCT.pdf
The 9007 is for front engine vehicles. Transaxle means the trans at the back with the engine at the front, like the corvette, not mid engine. It's not possible to have one transmission be configurable for both situations; the packaging constraints are completely different.
http://www.tremec.com/anexos/File/TR...R-9007.DCT.pdf
The 9007 is for front engine vehicles. Transaxle means the trans at the back with the engine at the front, like the corvette, not mid engine. It's not possible to have one transmission be configurable for both situations; the packaging constraints are completely different.
03-16-2018, 08:38 PM
#20
Race Director
Porsches manual transmission and PDK share many components.
I'd suggest the corvette will offer both a dct and a manual without question.
Technology today allows interruption of power between shifts saves many transmissions.
I'd suggest the corvette will offer both a dct and a manual without question.
Technology today allows interruption of power between shifts saves many transmissions.