The 4.2L, 2020 Corvette ME’s Motor
#201
Safety Car
Thread Starter
Here is why he is saying that, and what he is not saying:
1) He can not talk about any future GM product (GM has fired several staff already this year for talking about future product) — especially as GM has not acknowledged there will be a mid engine Corvette at any point in time.
2) GM escaped with their financial life on the ignition switch debacle, and thus they learned to never again make even a one-tiny-part change in a product and give it the same part number.
3) We have seen Corvette CAD drawings and they show actual exhaust headers — which the Cadillac motor doesn’t have. Additionally, the Caddy motor has a “Hot V” set up and the Corvette equivalent does not (again per the CAD drawings).
4) de Nysschen will never admit that a lowly Chevy, albeit a Corvette, has the same internals as a Cadillac motor, for he is trying to image-wise, return Cadillac to its many decades, world leading status. He is trying to woo BMW, and Mercedes and Audi and similar buyers to the brand, so he will never admit that 95+% of the internals of the Cadillac motor will be the same as the Corvette motor.
5) Cadillac can not now afford to build an exclusive 4.2L twin turbo , 32 valve, DOHC motor for just 3,000 CT6’s. Even if they later sell half that number of 2021 Escala’s, a 4,500 unit run for a $1B motor doesn’t financially cut the mustard.
Here’s one more major thing to consider (comparing the two) motors:
Cadillac = 4.2L, 32V, DOHC, V8;
Corvette = 4.2L, 32V, DOHC, V8*
*Source: 2016-2024 Markit Engine Forecast which states that just for 2019, in the Y2 Corvette platform (the Y1 is the C7), there will be 19,000 of those 4.2L, 32V, DOHC, V8’s— with that same number for 2021, 2021, and a few more.
de Nysschen, you may have convinced some; not me and many others.
Last edited by elegant; 03-28-2018 at 10:10 PM.
#202
Race Director
That what’s he said. And de Nysschen is telling the truth, for that engine with its exhaust manifolds and its “Cadillac stamped” top lid will not be going into the ME. It will have a unique Cadillac part number [P/N]. All accurate.
Here is why he is saying that, and what he is not saying:
1) He can not talk about any future GM product (GM has fired several staff already this year for talking about future product) — especially as GM has not acknowledged there will be a mid engine Corvette at any point in time.
2) GM escaped with their financial life on the ignition switch debacle, and thus they learned to never again make even a one-tiny-part change in a product and give it the same part number.
3) We have seen Corvette CAD drawings and they show actual exhaust headers — which the Cadillac motor doesn’t have. Additionally, the Caddy motor has a “Hot V” set up and the Corvette equivalent does not (again per the CAD drawings).
4) de Nysschen will never admit that a lowly Chevy, albeit a Corvette, has the same internals as a Cadillac motor, for he is trying to image-wise, return Cadillac to its many decades, world leading status. He is trying to woo BMW, and Mercedes and Audi and similar buyers to the brand, so he will never admit that 95+% of the internals of the Cadillac motor will be the same as the Corvette motor.
5) Cadillac can not now afford to build an exclusive 4.2L twin turbo , 32 valve, DOHC motor for just 3,000 CT6’s. Even if they later sell half that number of 2021 Escala’s, a 4,500 unit run for a $1B motor doesn’t financially cut the mustard.
Here’s one more major thing to consider (comparing the two) motors:
Cadillac = 4.2L, 32V, DOHC, V8;
Corvette = 4.2L, 32V, DOHC, V8*
*Source: 2016-2024 Markit Engine Forecast which states that just for 2019, in the Y2 Corvette platform (the Y1 is the C7), there will be 19,000 of those 4.2L, 32V, DOHC, V8’s— with that same number for 2021, 2021, and a few more.
de Nysschen, you may have convinced some; not me and many others.
Here is why he is saying that, and what he is not saying:
1) He can not talk about any future GM product (GM has fired several staff already this year for talking about future product) — especially as GM has not acknowledged there will be a mid engine Corvette at any point in time.
2) GM escaped with their financial life on the ignition switch debacle, and thus they learned to never again make even a one-tiny-part change in a product and give it the same part number.
3) We have seen Corvette CAD drawings and they show actual exhaust headers — which the Cadillac motor doesn’t have. Additionally, the Caddy motor has a “Hot V” set up and the Corvette equivalent does not (again per the CAD drawings).
4) de Nysschen will never admit that a lowly Chevy, albeit a Corvette, has the same internals as a Cadillac motor, for he is trying to image-wise, return Cadillac to its many decades, world leading status. He is trying to woo BMW, and Mercedes and Audi and similar buyers to the brand, so he will never admit that 95+% of the internals of the Cadillac motor will be the same as the Corvette motor.
5) Cadillac can not now afford to build an exclusive 4.2L twin turbo , 32 valve, DOHC motor for just 3,000 CT6’s. Even if they later sell half that number of 2021 Escala’s, a 4,500 unit run for a $1B motor doesn’t financially cut the mustard.
Here’s one more major thing to consider (comparing the two) motors:
Cadillac = 4.2L, 32V, DOHC, V8;
Corvette = 4.2L, 32V, DOHC, V8*
*Source: 2016-2024 Markit Engine Forecast which states that just for 2019, in the Y2 Corvette platform (the Y1 is the C7), there will be 19,000 of those 4.2L, 32V, DOHC, V8’s— with that same number for 2021, 2021, and a few more.
de Nysschen, you may have convinced some; not me and many others.
Add in different sheetmetal for each brand and we could add in different transmissions...the ten speed torque converter for the Cadillac and the corvette could use either a manual and a dct.
For many decades now GM was criticized for badge engineering. This discussion could lead to a lineup better suited to differentiate the brands on the same basic platform
#203
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I've heard two statements...
1) This engine isn't going in a Corvette.
2) This engine will only be used in Cadillac automobiles.
While Mr. Elegant eloquently validates the possibility that the ME engine could indeed be the recently revealed Cadillac engine with the obvious adaptations necessary for the ME application, there is also another possibility that I think should also be on the table.
What if the ME doesn't have the name "Corvette" on it? Or, taking it a step further, what if the ME is released with a name like "Zora" for instance under the Cadillac line instead of the Chevrolet line? The Corvette is a Chevrolet, but you don't see Chevrolet emblems on the Corvette. In the same manner, you could have a Cadillac Zora and not put Cadillac emblems on it.
Personally, I'm not convinced the ME is going to be revealed under the Corvette name. And I'm almost certain it's not going to be the 8th Generation Corvette. But like I always say, time will tell.
1) This engine isn't going in a Corvette.
2) This engine will only be used in Cadillac automobiles.
While Mr. Elegant eloquently validates the possibility that the ME engine could indeed be the recently revealed Cadillac engine with the obvious adaptations necessary for the ME application, there is also another possibility that I think should also be on the table.
What if the ME doesn't have the name "Corvette" on it? Or, taking it a step further, what if the ME is released with a name like "Zora" for instance under the Cadillac line instead of the Chevrolet line? The Corvette is a Chevrolet, but you don't see Chevrolet emblems on the Corvette. In the same manner, you could have a Cadillac Zora and not put Cadillac emblems on it.
Personally, I'm not convinced the ME is going to be revealed under the Corvette name. And I'm almost certain it's not going to be the 8th Generation Corvette. But like I always say, time will tell.
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LT1 Z51 (04-02-2018)
#204
Le Mans Master
Yeah, but a Cadillac always has been a Sled! ;)
I've heard two statements...
1) This engine isn't going in a Corvette.
2) This engine will only be used in Cadillac automobiles.
While Mr. Elegant eloquently validates the possibility that the ME engine could indeed be the recently revealed Cadillac engine with the obvious adaptations necessary for the ME application, there is also another possibility that I think should also be on the table.
What if the ME doesn't have the name "Corvette" on it? Or, taking it a step further, what if the ME is released with a name like "Zora" for instance under the Cadillac line instead of the Chevrolet line? The Corvette is a Chevrolet, but you don't see Chevrolet emblems on the Corvette. In the same manner, you could have a Cadillac Zora and not put Cadillac emblems on it.
Personally, I'm not convinced the ME is going to be revealed under the Corvette name. And I'm almost certain it's not going to be the 8th Generation Corvette. But like I always say, time will tell.
1) This engine isn't going in a Corvette.
2) This engine will only be used in Cadillac automobiles.
While Mr. Elegant eloquently validates the possibility that the ME engine could indeed be the recently revealed Cadillac engine with the obvious adaptations necessary for the ME application, there is also another possibility that I think should also be on the table.
What if the ME doesn't have the name "Corvette" on it? Or, taking it a step further, what if the ME is released with a name like "Zora" for instance under the Cadillac line instead of the Chevrolet line? The Corvette is a Chevrolet, but you don't see Chevrolet emblems on the Corvette. In the same manner, you could have a Cadillac Zora and not put Cadillac emblems on it.
Personally, I'm not convinced the ME is going to be revealed under the Corvette name. And I'm almost certain it's not going to be the 8th Generation Corvette. But like I always say, time will tell.
A Sled even with an improved chassis is still a Sled!
Last edited by johnglenntwo; 03-29-2018 at 12:46 AM.
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jagamajajaran (03-29-2018)
#205
Instructor
At this point, what do people think of "Zerv" leaks?
In his last post on 3/18, he specifically stated the Corvette engine lineup would be:
LT1, 4.6TT and 5.4TT.
In his last post on 3/18, he specifically stated the Corvette engine lineup would be:
LT1, 4.6TT and 5.4TT.
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Shaka (03-29-2018)
#206
Not sure why there is a controversy regarding this 4.2L TT...wherever it goes, it seems like the right kind of engine for the future.
Of course, YMMV.
Of course, YMMV.
#207
Le Mans Master
Marketing the GT2 RS makes it more valuable, sort of how GM labeled C6 Z06 vs. ZR1. But what if both companies said you have choice on the left and choice on the right. I bet people would think: let the boosted car handle the records in print but give me the one that's fun on the street and tireless on a road course.
Wild guess but most head improvements in the 90's and early 2000's were due to the emergence of computer assisted a,b,c,d. There was lots to gain in that period by testing things virtually. Today we start with that in every engine from scratch. GM is going to look at it and say: "Why would I keep head flow which impacts emissions and fuel efficiency off the table today for tomorrow, there may not be IC tomorrow!"
As far as I understand it it is pretty much the same engine, including heads! The intake and exhaust and tuning that goes with it is the main difference in output, that's why torque is nearly identical at peak but drops off at high rpm. Imagine if your work truck was as obnoxious as your Corvette, how many people buy a truck with that kind of racket?
The other bit is that for a truck they apparently would like to sacrifice high rpm torque for low rpm torque, hence the manifold difference. Then since they killed power up top with a restrictive intake, exhaust, and manifold, they decided to cut the redline since it doesn't breathe up there anymore anyway.
I think that GM basically did use the LT1 in the trucks, changing a few auxiliaries and tuning the manifold for the truck hood line and need to tow is not really making a new engine. Same bottom end, same compression, same heads, it's the same freaking thing.
The other bit is that for a truck they apparently would like to sacrifice high rpm torque for low rpm torque, hence the manifold difference. Then since they killed power up top with a restrictive intake, exhaust, and manifold, they decided to cut the redline since it doesn't breathe up there anymore anyway.
I think that GM basically did use the LT1 in the trucks, changing a few auxiliaries and tuning the manifold for the truck hood line and need to tow is not really making a new engine. Same bottom end, same compression, same heads, it's the same freaking thing.
Last edited by lt4obsesses; 03-29-2018 at 03:55 AM.
#208
Team Owner
I've heard two statements...
1) This engine isn't going in a Corvette.
2) This engine will only be used in Cadillac automobiles.
While Mr. Elegant eloquently validates the possibility that the ME engine could indeed be the recently revealed Cadillac engine with the obvious adaptations necessary for the ME application, there is also another possibility that I think should also be on the table.
What if the ME doesn't have the name "Corvette" on it? Or, taking it a step further, what if the ME is released with a name like "Zora" for instance under the Cadillac line instead of the Chevrolet line? The Corvette is a Chevrolet, but you don't see Chevrolet emblems on the Corvette. In the same manner, you could have a Cadillac Zora and not put Cadillac emblems on it.
Personally, I'm not convinced the ME is going to be revealed under the Corvette name. And I'm almost certain it's not going to be the 8th Generation Corvette. But like I always say, time will tell.
1) This engine isn't going in a Corvette.
2) This engine will only be used in Cadillac automobiles.
While Mr. Elegant eloquently validates the possibility that the ME engine could indeed be the recently revealed Cadillac engine with the obvious adaptations necessary for the ME application, there is also another possibility that I think should also be on the table.
What if the ME doesn't have the name "Corvette" on it? Or, taking it a step further, what if the ME is released with a name like "Zora" for instance under the Cadillac line instead of the Chevrolet line? The Corvette is a Chevrolet, but you don't see Chevrolet emblems on the Corvette. In the same manner, you could have a Cadillac Zora and not put Cadillac emblems on it.
Personally, I'm not convinced the ME is going to be revealed under the Corvette name. And I'm almost certain it's not going to be the 8th Generation Corvette. But like I always say, time will tell.
If so, look at the cross flag emblem on the nose, and you will plainly see the gold bowtie that is a registered Chevrolet trademark. That gold bowtie identifies the Corvette as a Chevrolet, just as the gold bowtie on the nose of a Bolt also identifies it as a Chevrolet. Do you see Chevrolet spelled out on the Bolt, or the Silverado, or the Cruze, etc? That bowtie is a Chevrolet emblem.
Last edited by JoesC5; 03-29-2018 at 08:05 AM.
#209
Le Mans Master
Close - but their different; but, Thank You! ;)
Some of you guys complain about my writing!? At least I keep the word numbers down.
https://mechanics.stackexchange.com/questions/25236/how-does-intake-manifold-runner-length-effect-the-power-curve-of-a-car
Exhaust back pressure makes low end torque!
I have thought about this before...kind of knew!
And
The LT1 was Benchmarked.
The new motor was Benchmarked.
The transaxle thing was Benchmarked.
The ME is Benchmarked!
THEY DON'T REDESIGN THE WHEEL!
(And yes our cell phones were Benchmarked!)
https://mechanics.stackexchange.com/questions/25236/how-does-intake-manifold-runner-length-effect-the-power-curve-of-a-car
Exhaust back pressure makes low end torque!
I have thought about this before...kind of knew!
And
The LT1 was Benchmarked.
The new motor was Benchmarked.
The transaxle thing was Benchmarked.
The ME is Benchmarked!
THEY DON'T REDESIGN THE WHEEL!
(And yes our cell phones were Benchmarked!)
Last edited by johnglenntwo; 03-29-2018 at 05:08 PM.
#210
Safety Car
Absolutely, and the popularity of the Grand Sport is strong evidence to back this up.
Exactly, and look how fast technology moves today. I mean, if you're last in line for the latest I-Phone, it only means your first in line for the next one. Technological advancement, especially in computer and software design is exponential. Advancement in one area can lead to advancement in a dozen others. Perhaps you're correct, and they put it all out there with the LT1 in 2014. But a lot can happen in four years in the tech world. Of course, that same tech might also render the LTx engines obsolete.
I think you're exactly right on this one. The truck engine serves a completely different purpose. Just like the LS engines, the architecture of the LT engines follows the same principal. Base them all on the same foundation and build them to suit for their individual purpose in the most cost effective way. A truck needs to be able to haul and tow, and do it a lot for a long time. A Corvette just needs to able to haul a$$ and do it for a long time.
Exactly, and look how fast technology moves today. I mean, if you're last in line for the latest I-Phone, it only means your first in line for the next one. Technological advancement, especially in computer and software design is exponential. Advancement in one area can lead to advancement in a dozen others. Perhaps you're correct, and they put it all out there with the LT1 in 2014. But a lot can happen in four years in the tech world. Of course, that same tech might also render the LTx engines obsolete.
I think you're exactly right on this one. The truck engine serves a completely different purpose. Just like the LS engines, the architecture of the LT engines follows the same principal. Base them all on the same foundation and build them to suit for their individual purpose in the most cost effective way. A truck needs to be able to haul and tow, and do it a lot for a long time. A Corvette just needs to able to haul a$$ and do it for a long time.
#211
Race Director
Member Since: Jun 2006
Location: Lawton, OK
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Do you have a Corvette?
If so, look at the cross flag emblem on the nose, and you will plainly see the gold bowtie that is a registered Chevrolet trademark. That gold bowtie identifies the Corvette as a Chevrolet, just as the gold bowtie on the nose of a Bolt also identifies it as a Chevrolet. Do you see Chevrolet spelled out on the Bolt, or the Silverado, or the Cruze, etc? That bowtie is a Chevrolet emblem.
If so, look at the cross flag emblem on the nose, and you will plainly see the gold bowtie that is a registered Chevrolet trademark. That gold bowtie identifies the Corvette as a Chevrolet, just as the gold bowtie on the nose of a Bolt also identifies it as a Chevrolet. Do you see Chevrolet spelled out on the Bolt, or the Silverado, or the Cruze, etc? That bowtie is a Chevrolet emblem.
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LT1 Z51 (04-02-2018)
#212
Le Mans Master
Some of you guys complain about my writing!? At least I keep the word numbers down.
https://mechanics.stackexchange.com/...curve-of-a-car
Exhaust back pressure makes low end torque!
I have thought about this before...kind of knew!
And
The LT1 was Benchmarked.
The new motor was Benchmarked.
The transaxle thing was Benchmarked.
The ME is Benchmarked!
THEY DON'T REDESIGN THE WHEEL!
(And yes our cell phones were Benchmarked!)
https://mechanics.stackexchange.com/...curve-of-a-car
Exhaust back pressure makes low end torque!
I have thought about this before...kind of knew!
And
The LT1 was Benchmarked.
The new motor was Benchmarked.
The transaxle thing was Benchmarked.
The ME is Benchmarked!
THEY DON'T REDESIGN THE WHEEL!
(And yes our cell phones were Benchmarked!)
http://www.epi-eng.com/piston_engine...technology.htm
This page describes it pretty well for the exhaust system.
A couple of challenges that manufacturers face are of course emission compliance as well as noise and vibration control. Put a set of headers on an OHV engine and you hear the "sewing machine" clicking of the rockers very clearly, combine that with the injector tick, and people would constantly be bringing their cars back for "engine noise" when nothing is wrong.
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235265283... (04-01-2018)
#213
#214
Race Director
Keep the Cadillac twin turbo nonsense with either 500 or 550 hp..
That's a good competitor for AMG Mercedes products..
You can pay your inflated pricing ...buy that AMG GTS....
Nobody is stopping you...
Cadillac will offer or most probably offer up a rear mid engine with a 10 speed automatic and one of these twin turbo hot V v8 s for anyone to buy..l
Offer up a rear mid engine corvette with cool sweet ohv 6.2 or forced induction 6.2 ohv and watch that competitor blow the german and Italian hyper pricing out of the water on the track...
Oh wait..the present grand sport, z06 and soon to be zr1 ohv forced induction rape those fancy Dohc twin turbos and that's in a front engine corvette..
Why do we have to want to give up the best proven power plant..just to get a dct or manual mid rear engine corvette....?
Ymmv
That's a good competitor for AMG Mercedes products..
You can pay your inflated pricing ...buy that AMG GTS....
Nobody is stopping you...
Cadillac will offer or most probably offer up a rear mid engine with a 10 speed automatic and one of these twin turbo hot V v8 s for anyone to buy..l
Offer up a rear mid engine corvette with cool sweet ohv 6.2 or forced induction 6.2 ohv and watch that competitor blow the german and Italian hyper pricing out of the water on the track...
Oh wait..the present grand sport, z06 and soon to be zr1 ohv forced induction rape those fancy Dohc twin turbos and that's in a front engine corvette..
Why do we have to want to give up the best proven power plant..just to get a dct or manual mid rear engine corvette....?
Ymmv
Last edited by JerriVette; 03-29-2018 at 02:10 PM.
#215
Team Owner
Keep the Cadillac twin turbo nonsense with either 500 or 550 hp..
That's a good competitor for AMG Mercedes products..
You can pay your inflated pricing ...buy that AMG GTS....
Nobody is stopping you...
Offer up a cool sweet ohv 6.2 or forced induction 6.2 ohv and watch that competitor blow the german and Italian hyper pricing out of the water on the track...
Oh wait..the present grand sport, z06 and soon to be zr1 ohv forced induction rape those fancy Dohc twin turbos and that's in a front engine corvette..
Why do we have to want to give up the best proven power plant....to get a dct mid rear engine corvette....?
Ymmv
That's a good competitor for AMG Mercedes products..
You can pay your inflated pricing ...buy that AMG GTS....
Nobody is stopping you...
Offer up a cool sweet ohv 6.2 or forced induction 6.2 ohv and watch that competitor blow the german and Italian hyper pricing out of the water on the track...
Oh wait..the present grand sport, z06 and soon to be zr1 ohv forced induction rape those fancy Dohc twin turbos and that's in a front engine corvette..
Why do we have to want to give up the best proven power plant....to get a dct mid rear engine corvette....?
Ymmv
#218
Safety Car
Backpressure is a misleading term. It's not actually back pressure, it's pulse wave scavenging. For the intake, it's when that high velocity air meets the back of the intake valve and travels back up the runner, until it meets resistance, the air in the intake, and goes back down the runner. The idea is that it get back to the valve just as it is opening, this increases the volumetric efficiency. It's much the same principle for the exhaust, only you want to time that return pulse to hit the back of the valve just before it opens, then it creates a vacuum which will pull the next pulse out of the cylinder. This is the idea behind the Tri-Y and stepped headers.
http://www.epi-eng.com/piston_engine...technology.htm
This page describes it pretty well for the exhaust system.
A couple of challenges that manufacturers face are of course emission compliance as well as noise and vibration control. Put a set of headers on an OHV engine and you hear the "sewing machine" clicking of the rockers very clearly, combine that with the injector tick, and people would constantly be bringing their cars back for "engine noise" when nothing is wrong.
http://www.epi-eng.com/piston_engine...technology.htm
This page describes it pretty well for the exhaust system.
A couple of challenges that manufacturers face are of course emission compliance as well as noise and vibration control. Put a set of headers on an OHV engine and you hear the "sewing machine" clicking of the rockers very clearly, combine that with the injector tick, and people would constantly be bringing their cars back for "engine noise" when nothing is wrong.
Thanks, nice post. Old article in the link. Old Chevy firing order dates it. NASCAR changed that. With the advent of modern CAD with a bunch of add ons, including materials modulus, stress/strain and CFD PiPs, etc, makes designing easy. Well only easy for really great engineers. Competitive creativity will assure that IC engines are in their infancy. My thesis was a V4 DOHC way back in 68. It was a far cry from what engineers learn today although, some of the formulas are still over 300 years old. Slide rules ruled and our CFD was reference material.
A single turbo charger in the st 6 is king. Plenum chambers and turbo chargers have changed the thinking that was prevalent in the article you posted. Useful with a Lamborghini Huracun I suppose.
This Caddy hot V V8 is just not the way to go. Twin turbo, bi-turbo, multi or split turbines, compounding , etc, are history.
A 6 cylinder like the Ford and F1 cars are the most efficient at all levels, mechanically and thermodynamically speaking. St 6 is even better with one turbo.
Even pulses are critical to drive the compressor for a number of reasons. Faster spool up and even pulses to the compressor are esencial. Cam overlap becomes critical, not only for scaviging with a turbo but also pulsation and pressure stability to the compressor. Caddy thinks this engine will work. I think it is just a packaging exercise which is not going to end well.
2018 Honda V6 F1 engine with compressor at one end and a shaft driven turbine at the other.
#219
Safety Car
Part b of the argument is quite obvious but here it goes, small blocks appear in many no-name car startups and swaps. You can't really put a luxury badge on something so commonly used.
Last edited by SBC_and_a_stick; 03-30-2018 at 06:38 PM.
#220
Team Owner
AMG already has a chassis(and damn good one) with a rear mounted transmission. 7:10 at the Ring with only 577 HP isn't shabby. Their chassis must be doing something right(even if it does have those old fashioned coil springs) instead of those high tech leaf springs.
Your part b was my point. Kind of difficult to ask top dollar for your if your car isn't a top dollar product.
Your part b was my point. Kind of difficult to ask top dollar for your if your car isn't a top dollar product.
Last edited by JoesC5; 03-30-2018 at 07:21 PM.