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I definitely don't fit the typical Vette owner profile that's for sure.
I definitely think that trend is changing though. I know a ton of import guys that are going to the trio that is Camaro, Corvette and Mustang. These cars are undeniable as some of the remaining, somewhat analog track machines left. Not to mention, C5/6's are getting affordable to the level that LSx swapping something costs more than just buying a Corvette and going to town.
I built forced induction systems for Honda/DSM/Nissan platforms for a long time. I've had supercharged Z06's that can't touch some Honda's and DSM's I've built over the years (going straight...road course gets a bit more in the Corvettes favor).
As a person who was as submerged into import culture as one could be (I organized annual import meets, had multiple shops, etc) we called "ricers" those who had mods that were functionless and solely aesthetic in nature. If the mod is supported by function and calculable result though, no "rice" results.
As usual. you have your "facts" backwards. Jim Perkins(head of Chevrolet) did not like run flats and ALL ALONG, the C5 was designed to have non run flats as standard and run flats as an option(like the 1996 C4). The center cubbyhole was designed to hold a mini-spare from day one. That was why Goodyear had both a non run flat and a run flat tire for the C5 on day one that it was released as they had to develop both to get the C5 contract. Oh, and that huge rear butt on the C5, you should actually compare it to the butt on the C7 as to which is larger.
Jim retired in December, 1996, and the C5 was fully designed/developed at that time. The new head of Chevrolet made the decision to have the run flat as standard equipment, which was no big deal, as the car as designed from day one to have a run flat as an option, so making it standard did not affect any '***' end designs of the C5.
As for the Aztek design, the body panels had mothing to do with what platform the vehicle was using. At the exact same time, the Buick Rendezvous was designed as a sister SUV using the EXACT SAME PLATFORM as the Aztek. Using the same exact platform , the Buick was designed to appeal to a more mature audience than what the Aztek was designed for. Peters carried over the Aztek's styling to the C7 to appeal to a less mature audience than what the C6 was deigned to appeal to.
The Buick version didn't have all the crappy looking black cladding, etc as did it's sister, the Aztek. As soon as the Aztek became the laughing stock of the automotive world, Pontiac, eliminated all the tacky black cladding, replacing it with body colored cladding, etc, but while it helped, the ugly Aztek's basic styling was still there. Long after the Aztek was sent to the garbage dump, the Rendezvous remained in production as it was selling as it's styling wasn't a huge turnoff to the American car buying public.
In a poll in the off topic section, as to what is your least favorite generation Corvette, the respondents say the C7 is 3 times less liked than the C6. In fact, the C7 is the least liked of all 7 generations(except maybe the C4 which isn't in the poll). I'm hoping GM is paying attention to what people think.
I just hope, for the survival of the Corvette, that the next generation gets away from the "boy racer" styling and into a more sophisticated design.
Well, Joe. As usual, we disagree.
The gestation of the Aztec is as I said it is and that is FACT. The C5's big butt and the turning of the mufflers to accommodate a spare is fact. Look up ANY pics you want of the early C5 mock ups and you will see the rear end is completely different, and not nearly as out of whack in terms of the balance of the design. All those mock ups were done under Jim Perkins' leadership. As far as the butt comparison between the C5 and C7....the C7 may indeed be wider in inches (the whole car is wider), but the rear end of the C7 is much more in balance with the car than the C5. Put the 2 cars side by side and ask a hundred people which butt looks bigger and out of proportion.
If you can provide ANY info to refute what I've typed beyond your NEED to be right, now's the time. The Motor Trend piece in this very thread shoots down your assertion that Tom Peters' was responsible for the black cladding on the Aztec.
For the C5 muffler answer, go buy a copy of James Schefter's great book, "All Corvettes are red", published in 1996, about the C5's long and tortuous road to production.
Just as the title asks, is there anyone in the design studio of GM working on the C8 that was working on the C7? Just saw my first c7 ZR1 and it is disgusting!!!! If GM really plans on making cars that look like that, then I think Mitsu's EVO plant or Subi's WRX plant can probably work in some production days for GM...............
Absolutely horrid what GM did to the Stringray. Mid engine design has so many possibilities, but I am now thinking GM can completely screw it up.
Flame suit is on for those C7 ricers that will post negatives towards my comment.
You are correct, the new ZR1 looks terrible. A giant Hot Wheels. Unfortunately, it is mostly the same crew designing the new car as well.
Well, Joe. As usual, we disagree.
The gestation of the Aztec is as I said it is and that is FACT. The C5's big butt and the turning of the mufflers to accommodate a spare is fact. Look up ANY pics you want of the early C5 mock ups and you will see the rear end is completely different, and not nearly as out of whack in terms of the balance of the design. All those mock ups were done under Jim Perkins' leadership. As far as the butt comparison between the C5 and C7....the C7 may indeed be wider in inches (the whole car is wider), but the rear end of the C7 is much more in balance with the car than the C5. Put the 2 cars side by side and ask a hundred people which butt looks bigger and out of proportion.
If you can provide ANY info to refute what I've typed beyond your NEED to be right, now's the time. The Motor Trend piece in this very thread shoots down your assertion that Tom Peters' was responsible for the black cladding on the Aztec.
For the C5 muffler answer, go buy a copy of James Schefter's great book, "All Corvettes are red", published in 1996, about the C5's long and tortuous road to production.
Yes, with the required chubby hole for the space saver spare, the mufflers were moved to the outboard positions. I didn't say they were not.
But, they didn't design the exhaust system first an then the body next. In fact there is plenty of room, even using the stock C5 mufflers to make the *** narrower, but that wasn't in the plans, as the body was designed first and then the exhaust system designed to fit in the available space.
Take a good look at the C5's exhaust and notice it doesn't even quite come out to the end of the vents in the rear fascia. There is plenty of room to make the rear fascia narrower, if GM had wanted to, to make the *** end of the C5 smaller
I bet any competent engineer that designs mufflers for a living, could decrease the length of the muffler housing on the C5, and still meet ALL of GM's noise suppression specs, if GM had wanted the C5's *** end to be smaller/narrower.
Love to take an age poll on of those who dislike the C7's vs C6 styling. Bet some interesting trends would come out.
Like, maybe those who prefer the more "mature" less racy styling of the C6 are also in the age group GM is trying to get below for median Corvette buyers. I'm 51 years old and I think the C7 ZR1 is functional beauty to behold. I actually wish they make an even more extreme version as the send off of the front engine. Kinda like Buick did back in 1987. Took the already potent Grand National and made the last 542 of them into the even more badass GNX.
Just as the title asks, is there anyone in the design studio of GM working on the C8 that was working on the C7? Just saw my first c7 ZR1 and it is disgusting!!!! If GM really plans on making cars that look like that, then I think Mitsu's EVO plant or Subi's WRX plant can probably work in some production days for GM...............
Absolutely horrid what GM did to the Stringray. Mid engine design has so many possibilities, but I am now thinking GM can completely screw it up.
Flame suit is on for those C7 ricers that will post negatives towards my comment.
Judge the C7 on the original (clean) design, not on all the permutations that followed. The ZR1 is not as attractive because of the application of internal and external aerodynamics to the problem of cooling the LT5 755 HP motor and keeping the car from flying off the track. One could argue that the C7.R is better looking and at least as functional, but that is beside the point. The most potent sports car on the planet is Porsche 919 which looks more like a skateboard with a half-teardrop on top. That is what aerodynamic forces want. That is NOT want stylists want. For an ME, the ideal is the Ferrari 458. Everything else is something of a kludge.
Can Bennion and the C7 guys improve on the 458 ? Based on the C7, I think than can, but we shall see.
The C5 rear is distinctive and iconic...the C7 rear is distinctive...but much in the same way the Aztec is.
What is quite funny is the people that bitched about the size of the C5's butt, and then added a tall spoiler on top to make it even larger. Kind of like the C7's designers did with their huge spoilers stuck on top of an already large SringRay butt, and then C7 owners complain about the size of a stock C5's butt.
C7 owner...."Honey, does this tall spoiler on the *** of my C7 make it look larger than a C5's butt?" LOL
Tom Peters...."Hey, I have an idea. Why don't we make the C7's butt 3 inches wider and also stick a really huge spoiler on it and call it a Z06 and a ZR1. Everybody loves a big butt on a Corvette except for Jimmy".
I bet any competent engineer that designs mufflers for a living, could decrease the length of the muffler housing on the C5, and still meet ALL of GM's noise suppression specs, if GM had wanted the C5's *** end to be smaller/narrower.
No competent chassis engineer would have - camber gain in droop. So much grip is lost on the inside tires with the C5,6 and 7 because of this geometry.
Hey Joe,
You fancy yourself as an expert (on the sound deadening of a 1964 at least), if you don't get the reason for big spoiler/big wing on C7 Z06/ZR1, maybe you should STOP arguing with folks and learn that there's more to aero than just a low cd. Or go drive YOUR 1964 at 160MPH and learn the true meaning of LIFT.
The C5 butt is OUT OF PROPORTION to the rest of the car, PERIOD. YOU ADMITTED IT: "People bitched about the size of the C5's butt"..."PEOPLE" which is PLURAL. Obviously I am hardly the first to make that observation. I'm more like the 10 MILLIONTH. If the spare tire well, as you opine, is NOT the reason for the parallel mufflers on the C5, then why doesn't he C6 have the spare tire well? Or parallel mufflers
Right.
You really need to get a hobby. Do you even know WHY you pick these fights? I mean, come on.
PS. I DID NOT order Z51 back in 2014 BECAUSE of the rear spoiler. I think it spoils the lines of the car. Now, putting these things (spoilers/wings) on 650HP/755HP cars make sense, but not on 460HP cars, IMO. There's a reason I never got a C7 GS....
I notice that didn't stop your friend from putting a Z51 spoiler on his BASE C7.
What is quite funny is the people that bitched about the size of the C5's butt, and then added a tall spoiler on top to make it even larger. Kind of like the C7's designers did with their huge spoilers stuck on top of an already large SringRay butt, and then C7 owners complain about the size of a stock C5's butt.
C7 owner...."Honey, does this tall spoiler on the *** of my C7 make it look larger than a C5's butt?" LOL
Tom Peters...."Hey, I have an idea. Why don't we make the C7's butt 3 inches wider and also stick a really huge spoiler on it and call it a Z06 and a ZR1. Everybody loves a big butt on a Corvette except for Jimmy".
No honey, but these unbelievably crappy and cheesy looking "Indy Pace Car" stripes and flags and yellow wheels and yellow seats sure make my C5's butt (and the rest of the car) look EVEN worse than normal.
I don't think you understand what the term "ricer" means.
Pretty funny. Everyone on these forums, years ago, knew that wings and tacked on crap was ricer. The ZR1 is only missing some stickers to complete the look.. Loyalists just don't want to admit what direction GM has taken......Don't want to admit GM may have lost their way with the Vette. The ME could be the savior, if they do it right.
I have very little issue with the C7 Stingray as it originally was offered. Once the Z06 Z07 package was put on the table, it was obvious GM had lost their minds.
I really want a C7 Grand Sport in Admiral Blue, but every time I go look at it in person, I make a lap or two, shake my head, and end up walking away..........Too bad, too, as the interior of the C7 is FANTASTIC!
Wow, almost forgot the most import ricer image......NO HOOD!!! What is that in the center of the $120K plus Chevy.....A hole...........Maybe I missed the sticker option when going through the options list...It must be there.
Last edited by WhiteDiamond; 05-09-2018 at 09:47 AM.
Reason: added
Love to take an age poll on of those who dislike the C7's vs C6 styling. Bet some interesting trends would come out.
Like, maybe those who prefer the more "mature" less racy styling of the C6 are also in the age group GM is trying to get below for median Corvette buyers. I'm 51 years old and I think the C7 ZR1 is functional beauty to behold. I actually wish they make an even more extreme version as the send off of the front engine. Kinda like Buick did back in 1987. Took the already potent Grand National and made the last 542 of them into the even more badass GNX.
Yep, you might be surprised. I am within 4 years of you. I think the ZR1 is, perhaps, the MOST UGLY vehicle offered by GM for sale. This includes that Bolt thing and even the upcoming 2019 Silverado(which is awful). If that is the path GM is taking, I see a great possibility the Vette isn't in my future. I understand there are those who need the flashy, ricer look, but I don't want it. I like clean lines with great performance.
Pretty funny. Everyone on these forums, years ago, knew that wings and tacked on crap was ricer. The ZR1 is only missing some stickers to complete the look.. Loyalists just don't want to admit what direction GM has taken......Don't want to admit GM may have lost their way with the Vette. The ME could be the savior, if they do it right.
We obviously share the same opinion. I really hope the designer has moved away from designing for 10 year olds, as I'll be most disappointed if after all the waiting I have to walk away from the ME.
And I don't think age has anything to do with the appreciation of good design. Maturity maybe.
Oh yeah, now I remember. He was the kingpin in GM spending billions on the Volt, that hasn't done **** in the market place(where the final evaluation of a vehicle is made).
The Volt is a great car. A great achievement. It hasn't captured the public's imagination for reasons that have way more to do with brand than engineering.
Non functional tacked on wings vs real functional aero. There is a big difference.
The ZR1 is designed to meet functional requirements on track. The irony of this is the term ricer was coined to describe tacked on crap which did nothing to enhance the car's performance. Often these were huge rear spoilers which had no function other than looks. Along comes the ZR1 with real functioning aero and the hater crowd yells ricer. It is actually the opposite of rice.
Originally Posted by WhiteDiamond
Pretty funny. Everyone on these forums, years ago, knew that wings and tacked on crap was ricer. The ZR1 is only missing some stickers to complete the look.. Loyalists just don't want to admit what direction GM has taken......Don't want to admit GM may have lost their way with the Vette. The ME could be the savior, if they do it right.
I have very little issue with the C7 Stingray as it originally was offered. Once the Z06 Z07 package was put on the table, it was obvious GM had lost their minds.
I really want a C7 Grand Sport in Admiral Blue, but every time I go look at it in person, I make a lap or two, shake my head, and end up walking away..........Too bad, too, as the interior of the C7 is FANTASTIC!
Wow, almost forgot the most import ricer image......NO HOOD!!! What is that in the center of the $120K plus Chevy.....A hole...........Maybe I missed the sticker option when going through the options list...It must be there.
Non functional tacked on wings vs real functional aero. There is a big difference.
The ZR1 is designed to meet functional requirements on track. The irony of this is the term ricer was coined to describe tacked on crap which did nothing to enhance the car's performance. Ofen these were huge rear spoilers which had no function other than looks. Along comes the ZR1 with real functioning aero and the hater crowd yells ricer. It is actually the opposite of rice.
I totally get that the ZR1 design enhancements are dictated by performance considerations. Like all things Corvette, it's a great engineering achievement. Almost unbelievable it's so good.
But beauty is in the eye of the beholder. I think the C7 is the best looking Vette--by far--since the early C3s. BY FAR.
But the ZR1 looks like a C7 that got whupped with an ugly stick.
Love to take an age poll on of those who dislike the C7's vs C6 styling. Bet some interesting trends would come out.
Like, maybe those who prefer the more "mature" less racy styling of the C6 are also in the age group GM is trying to get below for median Corvette buyers. I'm 51 years old and I think the C7 ZR1 is functional beauty to behold. I actually wish they make an even more extreme version as the send off of the front engine. Kinda like Buick did back in 1987. Took the already potent Grand National and made the last 542 of them into the even more badass GNX.
I keep seeing this argument pop up. I don't think it has any merit. I am part of the younger audience and I am not a fan of the C7. Two gentlemen I know in their 60s are the opposite and love the C7.
What is quite funny is the people that bitched about the size of the C5's butt, and then added a tall spoiler on top to make it even larger. Kind of like the C7's designers did with their huge spoilers stuck on top of an already large SringRay butt, and then C7 owners complain about the size of a stock C5's butt.
I'm of the camp that with most cars, especially Corvettes, you should not modify them except maybe a prettier exhaust. If you do, you cheapen the car. It's like buying a nice pair of jeans and writing all over them with a marker. It messes up the look of the car.
05-07-2018, 01:42 PM
