GM knows how to pack value into the ME
05-26-2018, 10:16 PM
#61
Le Mans Master
That's Scary! ;)
And
I'm afraid you're contradicting yourself when you speak of the ME being the top Vette and their testing the OHV. No wide body big azz tired FME. A 3,200lb buying the old light material mentality still doesn't have to cost.
The GT350R has CF wheels....there's nothing stupendous here. A new domestic chassis, and transaxle!
If it's a heavy dog then that is now part of their business model. That's just stupid!
Last edited by johnglenntwo; 05-27-2018 at 12:38 AM.
05-26-2018, 10:30 PM
#62
Safety Car
They were simply saying that the front engine was best in 2013 because they were releasing a new front engined Corvette at the time. You're reading too much into the sales BS from about 7 years before the ME will be released. What did you expect them to say? The ME is superior and next generation but this will do for now?
I'll ask again: where are the test mules?
You talked about competing with themselves for pricing, they can build a mid engine for the same price they can build a front engine. All that having 2 distinct models would do is raise their production cost of for both models. It would raise the number of molds they have to build, the number of assembly lines they have to operate and train, EPA & crash testing. It would make both models more expensive to produce.
I'll ask again: where are the test mules?
You talked about competing with themselves for pricing, they can build a mid engine for the same price they can build a front engine. All that having 2 distinct models would do is raise their production cost of for both models. It would raise the number of molds they have to build, the number of assembly lines they have to operate and train, EPA & crash testing. It would make both models more expensive to produce.
1) The test mules are being sited weekly, as has been being shown on posts this forum, while tens more unseen IVERS operating daily within Milford Proving Grounds and also at the Yuma test site — where they are not being photographed.
2) There has been, and will be only one assembly line — with both ME’s and FE’s running nose to tail. This will be production and cost super-efficient. No new employees will need be, nor will be hired for the ME.
3) As Tadge announced at the ZR1 Reveal (I was there and heard him), C7 development is over — meaning no more money going into future C7 enhancement, models, etc. (though they will be new colors and some very minor, typical, annual changes).
4) By offering distinctly different from each other FE’s and ME’s the next few years, they will not only retain existing Corvette lovers, but also attract new ones, and since all BGA expansion costs have already been amortized, and the ME’s development costs already made before, put aside, and now being used for that explicit purpose, GM is going to continue to make a lot of money on its Corvettes, in 2020, 2021, and beyond, and we Corvette lovers (again previous ones and new “brand conquests”) are now going to have a second, distinctly different, equally-exciting choice.
Last edited by elegant; 05-26-2018 at 11:20 PM.
05-26-2018, 11:57 PM
#63
Pro
Just facts... Here is what has been happening and what is coming next.
GM is going to continue to make a lot of money on its Corvettes, in 2020, 2021, and beyond, and we Corvette lovers (again previous ones and new “brand conquests”) are now going to have a second, distinctly different, equally-exciting choice.
GM is going to continue to make a lot of money on its Corvettes, in 2020, 2021, and beyond, and we Corvette lovers (again previous ones and new “brand conquests”) are now going to have a second, distinctly different, equally-exciting choice.
05-27-2018, 01:43 AM
#64
Melting Slicks
Did the 65 year corvette legacy and success have everything to do with the engine placement ?
Did price point , maybe help it exist for 65 years?
Did dream car status for the masses help it sell for what appears to be 8 decades ?
Did the fact that a higher percentage of Americans could pull the trigger,and buy it spontaneously and not worry about maintenance costs or exaggerated depreciation help it succeed ?
Or were they all those yellow race cars with skeleton heads running around race tracks that made all the
difference...
Did price point , maybe help it exist for 65 years?
Did dream car status for the masses help it sell for what appears to be 8 decades ?
Did the fact that a higher percentage of Americans could pull the trigger,and buy it spontaneously and not worry about maintenance costs or exaggerated depreciation help it succeed ?
Or were they all those yellow race cars with skeleton heads running around race tracks that made all the
difference...
05-27-2018, 05:31 AM
#66
Le Mans Master
Where are they!? ;)
Skank's Top Vette CAD drawing is made up of, for instance, a TT motor.
But, Skank's got a C8R OHV being tested currently at LS.
He's got high tech this or that going with a top Vette ME being exclusively part of a FE line up, but, lacks that C8R connection.
The truth is that CAD TT could be a small DOHV TT going in the C8R. That tech takes us to the future. The larger OHV's mass might not in reality be robust enough in the street car.
A smaller version OHV TT and not the DOHV sounds good. Cheaper, and it would maintain that low CoG sought racing component. I want it!
But, their racing an invalid tech in a new chassis? Doubtful!
I actually hope there is that connection and that concurrent base model parallel ME.
I want to build my track car with it before they load it up with crap. 500HPTT DSump, 3,100lbs, and PTM, please! I'll turn up the boost in your strong engine!
The good old days are back again, and I know it (The C5 ZO6)!?
But, Skank's got a C8R OHV being tested currently at LS.
He's got high tech this or that going with a top Vette ME being exclusively part of a FE line up, but, lacks that C8R connection.
The truth is that CAD TT could be a small DOHV TT going in the C8R. That tech takes us to the future. The larger OHV's mass might not in reality be robust enough in the street car.
A smaller version OHV TT and not the DOHV sounds good. Cheaper, and it would maintain that low CoG sought racing component. I want it!
But, their racing an invalid tech in a new chassis? Doubtful!
I actually hope there is that connection and that concurrent base model parallel ME.
I want to build my track car with it before they load it up with crap. 500HPTT DSump, 3,100lbs, and PTM, please! I'll turn up the boost in your strong engine!
The good old days are back again, and I know it (The C5 ZO6)!?
- CF Wheels
- Brake upgrade
- Winged aero
- Sport tires
- Adjustable Shocks
Last edited by johnglenntwo; 05-27-2018 at 10:02 AM.
05-27-2018, 05:35 AM
#67
Le Mans Master
Just facts... Here is what has been happening and what is coming next.
1) The test mules are being sited weekly, as has been being shown on posts this forum, while tens more unseen IVERS operating daily within Milford Proving Grounds and also at the Yuma test site — where they are not being photographed.
2) There has been, and will be only one assembly line — with both ME’s and FE’s running nose to tail. This will be production and cost super-efficient. No new employees will need be, nor will be hired for the ME.
3) As Tadge announced at the ZR1 Reveal (I was there and heard him), C7 development is over — meaning no more money going into future C7 enhancement, models, etc. (though they will be new colors and some very minor, typical, annual changes).
4) By offering distinctly different from each other FE’s and ME’s the next few years, they will not only retain existing Corvette lovers, but also attract new ones, and since all BGA expansion costs have already been amortized, and the ME’s development costs already made before, put aside, and now being used for that explicit purpose, GM is going to continue to make a lot of money on its Corvettes, in 2020, 2021, and beyond, and we Corvette lovers (again previous ones and new “brand conquests”) are now going to have a second, distinctly different, equally-exciting choice.
1) The test mules are being sited weekly, as has been being shown on posts this forum, while tens more unseen IVERS operating daily within Milford Proving Grounds and also at the Yuma test site — where they are not being photographed.
2) There has been, and will be only one assembly line — with both ME’s and FE’s running nose to tail. This will be production and cost super-efficient. No new employees will need be, nor will be hired for the ME.
3) As Tadge announced at the ZR1 Reveal (I was there and heard him), C7 development is over — meaning no more money going into future C7 enhancement, models, etc. (though they will be new colors and some very minor, typical, annual changes).
4) By offering distinctly different from each other FE’s and ME’s the next few years, they will not only retain existing Corvette lovers, but also attract new ones, and since all BGA expansion costs have already been amortized, and the ME’s development costs already made before, put aside, and now being used for that explicit purpose, GM is going to continue to make a lot of money on its Corvettes, in 2020, 2021, and beyond, and we Corvette lovers (again previous ones and new “brand conquests”) are now going to have a second, distinctly different, equally-exciting choice.
2) Okay, 1 assembly line. That's reasonable to presume if they just keep building the C7 in it's current form as the development costs are already paid for. It's unreasonable to assume as you claim, that a NEW C8 FE is going to be produced.
3) No **** there is no money going in to the C7. You have a strange way of posting stuff that doesn't support your argument as your 'facts'. Can I assume that you took Tadge's comments as meaning there MUST be a new C8 FE because he said the C7 is over, even though nothing he said indicates anything about a C8 FE?
4) Existing Corvette lovers won't buy a better updated version of the Corvette because why? The engine is better placed? I disagree. If your argument is that 'traditionalist' won't buy the C8, well you might be rightt that iy might appear to 'European' for some. I suggest they look at the Camaro for a very traditional American version of a sports car. (And don't say it's just a muscle car when it's faster around the track than many new Porsches). Can fit your precious golf clubs too, and the walker.
I'd love to be convinced, heck I'v never driven any mid engine car in anger. I like my rear wheel drive, manual trans, FE C6 a great deal. But I see no evidence of GM doing anything beyond possibly just continuing to produce the C7 until interest fades, which imo would take about a year after release of the C8 ME.
Last edited by Suns_PSD; 05-27-2018 at 05:37 AM.
05-27-2018, 07:03 AM
#68
Melting Slicks
Just facts... Here is what has been happening and what is coming next.
2) There has been, and will be only one assembly line — with both ME’s and FE’s running nose to tail. This will be production and cost super-efficient. No new employees will need be, nor will be hired for the ME.
4) By offering distinctly different from each other FE’s and ME’s the next few years,
2) There has been, and will be only one assembly line — with both ME’s and FE’s running nose to tail. This will be production and cost super-efficient. No new employees will need be, nor will be hired for the ME.
4) By offering distinctly different from each other FE’s and ME’s the next few years,
On #4, personally I don't think GM offers two models - it makes zero sense to do so; and especially so if as some have suggested the Base car goes ME and the GS, Z06 & ZR1 stay FE. That will result in GM selling few cars, as no one would want a high performance version of the current car when they know a ME version is coming, and the Base car might not be practical or priced cheap enough to move in volume.
05-27-2018, 07:12 AM
#69
Race Director
Just facts... Here is what has been happening and what is coming next.
1) The test mules are being sited weekly, as has been being shown on posts this forum, while tens more unseen IVERS operating daily within Milford Proving Grounds and also at the Yuma test site — where they are not being photographed.
2) There has been, and will be only one assembly line — with both ME’s and FE’s running nose to tail. This will be production and cost super-efficient. No new employees will need be, nor will be hired for the ME.
3) As Tadge announced at the ZR1 Reveal (I was there and heard him), C7 development is over — meaning no more money going into future C7 enhancement, models, etc. (though they will be new colors and some very minor, typical, annual changes).
4) By offering distinctly different from each other FE’s and ME’s the next few years, they will not only retain existing Corvette lovers, but also attract new ones, and since all BGA expansion costs have already been amortized, and the ME’s development costs already made before, put aside, and now being used for that explicit purpose, GM is going to continue to make a lot of money on its Corvettes, in 2020, 2021, and beyond, and we Corvette lovers (again previous ones and new “brand conquests”) are now going to have a second, distinctly different, equally-exciting choice.
1) The test mules are being sited weekly, as has been being shown on posts this forum, while tens more unseen IVERS operating daily within Milford Proving Grounds and also at the Yuma test site — where they are not being photographed.
2) There has been, and will be only one assembly line — with both ME’s and FE’s running nose to tail. This will be production and cost super-efficient. No new employees will need be, nor will be hired for the ME.
3) As Tadge announced at the ZR1 Reveal (I was there and heard him), C7 development is over — meaning no more money going into future C7 enhancement, models, etc. (though they will be new colors and some very minor, typical, annual changes).
4) By offering distinctly different from each other FE’s and ME’s the next few years, they will not only retain existing Corvette lovers, but also attract new ones, and since all BGA expansion costs have already been amortized, and the ME’s development costs already made before, put aside, and now being used for that explicit purpose, GM is going to continue to make a lot of money on its Corvettes, in 2020, 2021, and beyond, and we Corvette lovers (again previous ones and new “brand conquests”) are now going to have a second, distinctly different, equally-exciting choice.
I’d rather see an evolution to all new corvettes being rear mid engine...but on the others hand who gives a god dam crap...
(I’m kidding of course)
Unit sales of two seat sports cars is minimal..I’d be surprised with two corvettes , one rear mid engine and one front mid engine..
The segment isn’t that big to warrant two entrants from corvette...
Now if you said a corvette cuv like a Porsche macan ..
That I would think was a smart move..
Two 2 seat corvettes? Not so much...
But none of us know until GM announces
05-27-2018, 09:17 AM
#70
Team Owner
Porsche discovered that their customers only wanted ONE model sports car. Oh, wait....they build a mid engine sports car and a rear engine sports car.
Ferrari discovered that their customers only wanted ONE model sports car. Oh, wait....they build a front engine sports car and a mid engine sports car.
Mercedes discovered that their customers only wanted ONE model sports car. Oh, wait, they build front engine sport cars and have a soon to be released mid engine sports car in the wings.
Acura discovered that their customers only wanted ONE model sports car. A mid engine sports car. That's all they offer and look at the dismal sales of Acura's sports cars.
Ford discovered that their customers only wanted ONE model sports car. A mid engine sports car that will be built at the rate of 250 annually for four years. Is that what you want for the Corvette? ONE $400,000 sports car that you have to be a celebrity to purchase, and you can't sell it for two years, that will be out of production three years from now.
Oh, and for the remark about GM not increasing the number of employees...GM entered into an agreement with the State of Kentucky to increase the workforce by ~28%(~ 270 employees) in Bowling Green, in order to get some tax brakes from the state.
You don't double the size of the plant and then increase the number of employees, in order to sell fewer Corvettes at the same price of the previous FE generation(C7).
Ferrari discovered that their customers only wanted ONE model sports car. Oh, wait....they build a front engine sports car and a mid engine sports car.
Mercedes discovered that their customers only wanted ONE model sports car. Oh, wait, they build front engine sport cars and have a soon to be released mid engine sports car in the wings.
Acura discovered that their customers only wanted ONE model sports car. A mid engine sports car. That's all they offer and look at the dismal sales of Acura's sports cars.
Ford discovered that their customers only wanted ONE model sports car. A mid engine sports car that will be built at the rate of 250 annually for four years. Is that what you want for the Corvette? ONE $400,000 sports car that you have to be a celebrity to purchase, and you can't sell it for two years, that will be out of production three years from now.
Oh, and for the remark about GM not increasing the number of employees...GM entered into an agreement with the State of Kentucky to increase the workforce by ~28%(~ 270 employees) in Bowling Green, in order to get some tax brakes from the state.
You don't double the size of the plant and then increase the number of employees, in order to sell fewer Corvettes at the same price of the previous FE generation(C7).
Last edited by JoesC5; 05-27-2018 at 10:06 AM.
05-27-2018, 09:38 AM
#71
Le Mans Master
Corvette is not a brand, it's a single model within a brand.
That brand will continue to offer a FE sports car, an exceptionally good one at that. And several other GTs under the Cadillac name.
Ultimately that's the problem, no longer is there a significant performance difference between the FE Corvette and GM's other FE hi-po cars.
Why are you people so emotionally invested in a FE Corvette?
That brand will continue to offer a FE sports car, an exceptionally good one at that. And several other GTs under the Cadillac name.
Ultimately that's the problem, no longer is there a significant performance difference between the FE Corvette and GM's other FE hi-po cars.
Why are you people so emotionally invested in a FE Corvette?
Last edited by Suns_PSD; 05-27-2018 at 09:41 AM.
05-27-2018, 09:48 AM
#72
Burning Brakes
Even Aston Martin is planning a mid-engine Supercar to go head-to-head with Ferrari, Lamborghini, and McLaren. I’m also anticipating the day Jaguar makes an XJ220 successor.
If there will be a front engine C8, it needs to shift focus slightly towards luxury and comfort. Utilize the Gen 6 DOHC V8s and DCT of the mid-engine Corvettes, but have a softer ride and more plush interiors. Make it feel like an LC500 on the inside. Older customers who want the Corvette power, handling, and style but also want Cadillac interior quality and ride comfort will then have their ideal car. Leave track-focused models and packages for the more capable (mid-engine) configuration.
If there will be a front engine C8, it needs to shift focus slightly towards luxury and comfort. Utilize the Gen 6 DOHC V8s and DCT of the mid-engine Corvettes, but have a softer ride and more plush interiors. Make it feel like an LC500 on the inside. Older customers who want the Corvette power, handling, and style but also want Cadillac interior quality and ride comfort will then have their ideal car. Leave track-focused models and packages for the more capable (mid-engine) configuration.
05-27-2018, 10:00 AM
#73
Burning Brakes
A brand is a name, term, design, symbol, or other feature that distinguishes an organization or product from its rivals in the eyes of the customer
Last edited by Quinten33; 05-27-2018 at 10:01 AM.
05-27-2018, 10:03 AM
#74
Melting Slicks
It's ironic that the all mid engine only crowd most likely have never lived with a mid engined car. I've lived with Ferrari's and understand completely the negative and positive aspects of mid engined ownership. Conversely I've also owned Corvettes earlier in life and can appreciate all the practical aspects of the front engined configuration. Why then would GM, Chevrolet, and Team Corvette ever consider walking away from the configuration that they've massaged, honed, and perfected. Their front engined chassis is clearly the highest performing front engine car in the world today. Even the half million dollar 812 Superfast cannot stick with the ZR1 on the track. GM would be committing marketing suicide if they gave that advantage up after developing the Vette over it's 65 year history. And oh by the way, the most valuable Ferrari's in history are the front engined 250 GTO's by a massive margin.
05-27-2018, 10:03 AM
#75
Team Owner
Even Aston Martin is planning a mid-engine Supercar to go head-to-head with Ferrari, Lamborghini, and McLaren. I’m also anticipating the day Jaguar makes an XJ220 successor.
If there will be a front engine C8, it needs to shift focus slightly towards luxury and comfort. Utilize the Gen 6 DOHC V8s and DCT of the mid-engine Corvettes, but have a softer ride and more plush interiors. Make it feel like an LC500 on the inside. Older customers who want the Corvette power, handling, and style but also want Cadillac interior quality and ride comfort will then have their ideal car. Leave track-focused models and packages for the more capable (mid-engine) configuration.
If there will be a front engine C8, it needs to shift focus slightly towards luxury and comfort. Utilize the Gen 6 DOHC V8s and DCT of the mid-engine Corvettes, but have a softer ride and more plush interiors. Make it feel like an LC500 on the inside. Older customers who want the Corvette power, handling, and style but also want Cadillac interior quality and ride comfort will then have their ideal car. Leave track-focused models and packages for the more capable (mid-engine) configuration.
05-27-2018, 10:37 AM
#76
Melting Slicks
Did the 65 year corvette legacy and success have everything to do with the engine placement ?
Did price point , maybe help it exist for 65 years?
Did dream car status for the masses help it sell for what appears to be 8 decades ?
Did the fact that a higher percentage of Americans could pull the trigger,and buy it spontaneously and not worry about maintenance costs or exaggerated depreciation help it succeed ?
Or were they all those yellow race cars with skeleton heads running around race tracks that made all the
difference...
05-27-2018, 10:49 AM
#77
Team Owner
The 45 year old lady, living in North Hollywood, CA in December 1963 purchased her white 1964 coupe with 300HP, auto transmission, power steering, power brakes, power windows. posi, all tinted glass, and AM/FM radio, leather, did so because she wanted a sports car to drive on the street in North Hollywood, because it was a "race car". I doubt it. I bet the Corvette being raced was the last thing she considered when signing the purchase agreement at John Bohls Chevrolet, Inc. in Beverly Hills, CA on December 27, 1963.
Last edited by JoesC5; 05-27-2018 at 10:59 AM.
05-27-2018, 11:27 AM
#78
Safety Car
The cheapest mid-engine car I'm aware of is the 244hp Alfa Romeo 4C at $59k base price. The Boxster is in the same range. The next step up is the Lotus Evora 400 and base 911 at $90k. I don't think it's any coincidence that GM is benchmarking the ME car against the 911. GM has their work cut out for them if they want to bring this in under 100 and still keep it packed with technology while besting the C7 in performance.
make it cool looking, make it handle right and of course fast!
Everything else is junk beside A/C and a radio!
05-27-2018, 12:07 PM
#79
Safety Car
Question?
How many mid-engine’d Corvette IVERS mules have already been produced? It is one of the following.
1) 8
2) 18
3) 24
4) 30
I understand some wanting to adhere to our comfortable and wonderful Corvette past and present. However, our sun is not circling the earth; in spite of lots of information to the contrary, including the Greek Aristarchus stating as far back as 290 BC that actually the Earth actually rotated around the sun, yet even the much-more-famous Plato, Aristotle, and Ptolemy (and their followers) continued to vigorously state the sun revolved around the earth for the next 14 centuries. For the followers of Plato, Aristotle Ptolemy and others, the 2020 mid-engined GM sports car will not have a V6, nor will it be a Cadillac, nor will it offer a manual transmission, nor will it offer a traditional automatic transmission.
And for those who prefer a long-nosed/short deck, traditional front-engined Corvette, with traditional manual and auto trans options, definitively having two golf club carrying capacity, nothing is going away next year, e.g. a 2020, traditional, gorgeous, outstanding, FE will be continuing to be on sale.
I am curious as to what others’ are thinking is the correct answer to the number of mules already made question, and will post the correct answer no later than tomorrow —sooner if there are first several posted responses.
How many mid-engine’d Corvette IVERS mules have already been produced? It is one of the following.
1) 8
2) 18
3) 24
4) 30
I understand some wanting to adhere to our comfortable and wonderful Corvette past and present. However, our sun is not circling the earth; in spite of lots of information to the contrary, including the Greek Aristarchus stating as far back as 290 BC that actually the Earth actually rotated around the sun, yet even the much-more-famous Plato, Aristotle, and Ptolemy (and their followers) continued to vigorously state the sun revolved around the earth for the next 14 centuries. For the followers of Plato, Aristotle Ptolemy and others, the 2020 mid-engined GM sports car will not have a V6, nor will it be a Cadillac, nor will it offer a manual transmission, nor will it offer a traditional automatic transmission.
And for those who prefer a long-nosed/short deck, traditional front-engined Corvette, with traditional manual and auto trans options, definitively having two golf club carrying capacity, nothing is going away next year, e.g. a 2020, traditional, gorgeous, outstanding, FE will be continuing to be on sale.
I am curious as to what others’ are thinking is the correct answer to the number of mules already made question, and will post the correct answer no later than tomorrow —sooner if there are first several posted responses.
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fasttoys (05-27-2018)
05-27-2018, 12:12 PM
#80
Le Mans Master
Right-on! Smart Platform! ;)
Destroke, lower the deck height and shrink the OHV. TT boost the sheet out of it! A 7500 RPM low CoG race car/Z51 (DOHC the hypo tech)!
Emissions, robustness...Exotic game, Now!
Emissions, robustness...Exotic game, Now!
Last edited by johnglenntwo; 05-27-2018 at 01:22 PM.