No manual trans = Garbage
06-02-2018, 07:37 PM
#161
So, it may NOT give you a better performance but that is not relevant to using paddles. Therefore, they should definitely be included on a DCT car and there is no reasonable argument to remove them.
Last edited by gthal; 06-02-2018 at 07:40 PM.
06-02-2018, 07:38 PM
#162
Racer
I hope so
100% correct.
Ferrari stopped making 3 pedal cars because their take rate was even more skewed...over 90% of Ferraris were being ordered with automatics. BUT....
20% of Corvettes is a BIG number in the sports car world and hard to ignore.
Just because Car and Driver says no manual doesn't mean ANYTHING. They have been wrong plenty (just look at the render that graced their cover).
Ferrari stopped making 3 pedal cars because their take rate was even more skewed...over 90% of Ferraris were being ordered with automatics. BUT....
20% of Corvettes is a BIG number in the sports car world and hard to ignore.
Just because Car and Driver says no manual doesn't mean ANYTHING. They have been wrong plenty (just look at the render that graced their cover).
Though I knew he was not interested in talking about the C8, I told him that I would be thrilled if the ME 8 had a manual option.
And additionally I would have no problems if there it was a line item charge for it.
He looked at me as if I just flew in from Mars.
I hope I am wrong.
Though I am sure the new auto trans will be spectacular and the better performer, I simply prefer the engagement with a manual trans.
06-02-2018, 08:35 PM
#163
Le Mans Master
I know how to do this in a MT, how do you do this in a DCT?
There are plenty of situations where one does not want the fastest possible gear change, some where you want an extended disengaged interval, and others where the time of engagement is extended. How does one do this in a DCT?
06-02-2018, 08:59 PM
#164
Melting Slicks
Let us postulate a situation where you want to engage the clutch over a period of 1.0+ second(s) in order to avoid spinning out on wet/frozen tarmac. A situation where you may need to feel the point of slippage and then push the pedal back in a bit and try again.
I know how to do this in a MT, how do you do this in a DCT?
There are plenty of situations where one does not want the fastest possible gear change, some where you want an extended disengaged interval, and others where the time of engagement is extended. How does one do this in a DCT?
I know how to do this in a MT, how do you do this in a DCT?
There are plenty of situations where one does not want the fastest possible gear change, some where you want an extended disengaged interval, and others where the time of engagement is extended. How does one do this in a DCT?
06-02-2018, 10:02 PM
#165
Race Director
Had an opportunity to speak with Harlan at the Bash last month.
Though I knew he was not interested in talking about the C8, I told him that I would be thrilled if the ME 8 had a manual option.
And additionally I would have no problems if there it was a line item charge for it.
He looked at me as if I just flew in from Mars.
I hope I am wrong.
Though I am sure the new auto trans will be spectacular and the better performer, I simply prefer the engagement with a manual trans.
Though I knew he was not interested in talking about the C8, I told him that I would be thrilled if the ME 8 had a manual option.
And additionally I would have no problems if there it was a line item charge for it.
He looked at me as if I just flew in from Mars.
I hope I am wrong.
Though I am sure the new auto trans will be spectacular and the better performer, I simply prefer the engagement with a manual trans.
After all the heart attacks on this forum from unofficial rumors that no manual transmission is on the horizon for the c8 ...
Maybe the reason Harlan looked at you as if you were from Mars..it’s because GM plans on having the c8 come standard with a manual transmission and then charge thousands more for its new dct transmission.
This pattern allows GM to offer a lower base msrp and gets the consumer spending loading on the options...
Since 77 percent of corvette s were sold with an added extra cost automatic transmission...GM is able to advertise a low base msrp for the car and then ship out their c8s with that option list checked off...
Harlan looked at you crazy because he knows the manual will be standard and 77 percentage of customers will have to start checking off the extra cost options to get their new dct.
Porsche charges around 4grand for it’s dct.
06-02-2018, 10:45 PM
#166
Racer
If Tadge really said this, and believes this, then that silly "little stick to put an automatic into gear" should go, too. Not needed. It's all electronically controlled. You can just use a touch screen, a button, or even gesture control to put it into gear. That auto trans shift lever is just taking up space on the console.
CONSOLE SHIFTER NEEDS TO GO.
Also "grabbing a little paddle to change gears is a mundane process", too. We hear over and over and over that the manual is not needed, because it is slower than the automatic (see above for example). If that's the justification for abandoning the manual, then the paddle shifters need to go, too. Chevy has already proven that the fastest way around the track is to just leave it Drive. Chevy is setting track records with it in Drive. The computers are so good, they shift better than people, even without a DCT. People are just slowing the car down with the paddles.
PADDLE SHIFTERS NEED TO GO.
CONSOLE SHIFTER NEEDS TO GO.
Also "grabbing a little paddle to change gears is a mundane process", too. We hear over and over and over that the manual is not needed, because it is slower than the automatic (see above for example). If that's the justification for abandoning the manual, then the paddle shifters need to go, too. Chevy has already proven that the fastest way around the track is to just leave it Drive. Chevy is setting track records with it in Drive. The computers are so good, they shift better than people, even without a DCT. People are just slowing the car down with the paddles.
PADDLE SHIFTERS NEED TO GO.
06-02-2018, 10:56 PM
#167
Porsche will kill the MT soon too 
There is no MT option on a number of their higher performing models... guess they don't like "enthusiasts" either. That's the thing, liking a clutch pedal has NOTHING to do with being an "enthusiast." It's just a preference on the type of transmission... like the choice on spider vs. coupe... black vs. red. It's subjective and personal yet people who live by the MT transmission think it makes them an "enthusiast" 
Chest thumping aside, someone who prefers an MT is no more an "enthusiast" than someone who prefers a DCT.
But, you are right, if there is no MT on the C8 you could buy a lower performing Porsche with an MT or spend WAY more money for a similarly performing Porsche to buy the right to push a clutch pedal. Until Porsche also ends MT transmissions across their car lineup at some point.
Again, don't get me wrong... I love my MT cars and hope GM offers it on the C8. I also really like the character and performance of a DCT. No chest thumping, false enthusiast mentality, macho BS from me regardless as to which type of car I'm driving that day
There is no MT option on a number of their higher performing models... guess they don't like "enthusiasts" either. That's the thing, liking a clutch pedal has NOTHING to do with being an "enthusiast." It's just a preference on the type of transmission... like the choice on spider vs. coupe... black vs. red. It's subjective and personal yet people who live by the MT transmission think it makes them an "enthusiast" Chest thumping aside, someone who prefers an MT is no more an "enthusiast" than someone who prefers a DCT.But, you are right, if there is no MT on the C8 you could buy a lower performing Porsche with an MT or spend WAY more money for a similarly performing Porsche to buy the right to push a clutch pedal. Until Porsche also ends MT transmissions across their car lineup at some point.
Again, don't get me wrong... I love my MT cars and hope GM offers it on the C8. I also really like the character and performance of a DCT. No chest thumping, false enthusiast mentality, macho BS from me regardless as to which type of car I'm driving that day
Last edited by Stingcan; 06-03-2018 at 09:29 PM.
06-02-2018, 10:58 PM
#168
Let us postulate a situation where you want to engage the clutch over a period of 1.0+ second(s) in order to avoid spinning out on wet/frozen tarmac. A situation where you may need to feel the point of slippage and then push the pedal back in a bit and try again.
I know how to do this in a MT, how do you do this in a DCT?
There are plenty of situations where one does not want the fastest possible gear change, some where you want an extended disengaged interval, and others where the time of engagement is extended. How does one do this in a DCT?
I know how to do this in a MT, how do you do this in a DCT?
There are plenty of situations where one does not want the fastest possible gear change, some where you want an extended disengaged interval, and others where the time of engagement is extended. How does one do this in a DCT?
Last edited by gthal; 06-02-2018 at 11:09 PM.
06-03-2018, 12:13 AM
#169
Le Mans Master
Last edited by lt4obsesses; 06-03-2018 at 09:23 AM.
06-03-2018, 12:39 AM
#170
Safety Car
Speaking of transmissions, remember when two people posted that the ME was not coming with a DCT, but with the A10, here is one-media’s short rebuttal to the A10 postulation.
Originally Posted by CorvetteOnLine
It could very well be the 10-speed automatic al la the ZL1, but we’ve now heard the ME in action and the shifting seems very much different from the 10L90. It would appear that Chevrolet may release the C8 with its very first dual-clutch transmission (DCT).
Last edited by elegant; 06-03-2018 at 12:42 AM.
06-03-2018, 05:02 AM
#171
Burning Brakes
Member Since: Jan 2017
Location: Saint Clair Shores Michigan
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I'm seeing some random posts in this thread along the lines of "manual sales are dwindling" and/or decreasing; demand is down, etc. I think once the dust settles, you can pretty much say that about most things (Super NES, the iPhone, etc), including C7 Corvette sales overall in 2018 compared to 2014.
I think a factor that needs to be put into the equation is that after 4-5 years of being in dealerships, everyone who wanted a C7 in a manual transmission has already bought one at this point, particularly the enthusiasts. I would look at the 2014/2015 model years just for initial production numbers when people wanted to get the C7 at its peak:
2014 Corvette Stingray Manual Production Numbers:
13210 / 37288 = 35%
2015 Corvette Stingray Manual Production Numbers:
6484 / 25587 = 25%
2015 Corvette Z06 Manual Production Numbers:
4467 / 8653 = 51%
Overall initial:
24161 / 71528 = 33% or 1 out of 3
So versus looking at 1 out of 5 (which is still good), I'd look at the sales you could generate when the vehicle is released, which is actually greater than all manual transmission sales in the US market 30 years ago (That Z06 number is way too good to ignore). I would also look at dealer allocated orders vs actual customer orders. That should play a huge role in determining the trend of the Corvette specific market going forward.
I think a factor that needs to be put into the equation is that after 4-5 years of being in dealerships, everyone who wanted a C7 in a manual transmission has already bought one at this point, particularly the enthusiasts. I would look at the 2014/2015 model years just for initial production numbers when people wanted to get the C7 at its peak:
2014 Corvette Stingray Manual Production Numbers:
13210 / 37288 = 35%
2015 Corvette Stingray Manual Production Numbers:
6484 / 25587 = 25%
2015 Corvette Z06 Manual Production Numbers:
4467 / 8653 = 51%
Overall initial:
24161 / 71528 = 33% or 1 out of 3
So versus looking at 1 out of 5 (which is still good), I'd look at the sales you could generate when the vehicle is released, which is actually greater than all manual transmission sales in the US market 30 years ago (That Z06 number is way too good to ignore). I would also look at dealer allocated orders vs actual customer orders. That should play a huge role in determining the trend of the Corvette specific market going forward.
The following users liked this post:
Shaka (06-03-2018)
06-03-2018, 08:48 AM
#172
Race Director
I'm seeing some random posts in this thread along the lines of "manual sales are dwindling" and/or decreasing; demand is down, etc. I think once the dust settles, you can pretty much say that about most things (Super NES, the iPhone, etc), including C7 Corvette sales overall in 2018 compared to 2014.
I think a factor that needs to be put into the equation is that after 4-5 years of being in dealerships, everyone who wanted a C7 in a manual transmission has already bought one at this point, particularly the enthusiasts. I would look at the 2014/2015 model years just for initial production numbers when people wanted to get the C7 at its peak:
2014 Corvette Stingray Manual Production Numbers:
13210 / 37288 = 35%
2015 Corvette Stingray Manual Production Numbers:
6484 / 25587 = 25%
2015 Corvette Z06 Manual Production Numbers:
4467 / 8653 = 51%
Overall initial:
24161 / 71528 = 33% or 1 out of 3
So versus looking at 1 out of 5 (which is still good), I'd look at the sales you could generate when the vehicle is released, which is actually greater than all manual transmission sales in the US market 30 years ago (That Z06 number is way too good to ignore). I would also look at dealer allocated orders vs actual customer orders. That should play a huge role in determining the trend of the Corvette specific market going forward.
I think a factor that needs to be put into the equation is that after 4-5 years of being in dealerships, everyone who wanted a C7 in a manual transmission has already bought one at this point, particularly the enthusiasts. I would look at the 2014/2015 model years just for initial production numbers when people wanted to get the C7 at its peak:
2014 Corvette Stingray Manual Production Numbers:
13210 / 37288 = 35%
2015 Corvette Stingray Manual Production Numbers:
6484 / 25587 = 25%
2015 Corvette Z06 Manual Production Numbers:
4467 / 8653 = 51%
Overall initial:
24161 / 71528 = 33% or 1 out of 3
So versus looking at 1 out of 5 (which is still good), I'd look at the sales you could generate when the vehicle is released, which is actually greater than all manual transmission sales in the US market 30 years ago (That Z06 number is way too good to ignore). I would also look at dealer allocated orders vs actual customer orders. That should play a huge role in determining the trend of the Corvette specific market going forward.
You are right first year and scind year sales numbers show the actual demand by consumers..
GM is definitely going to have a manual standard but is quiet on all new vehicle specs A) because it’s corporate policy to not discuss upcoming model shows at all..
And
B) because if knuckle head consumers think the existing generation could be the last manual GM will sell more existing models
So overall the entire discussion of no manual being available is just internet bullcrap...
Remember we are enjoying the idea that the sky is falling....
Manual will be available on the c8.
Especially looking at your data on 2015 and 2015 model years when consumers actually placed the orders..
Suppliers will convince GM to make a manual available quite easily as well..
Suppliers need th unit sales of manual transmission as well..
GM needs unit sales and the percentages are huge...way beyond even Porsche’s 911 percentages which are 85percent dct and 15percent manuals...
Porsche has the manual standard and the dct as a 4 grand option...
Sounds good to me and I don’t pay the 4 grand for a corvette dct and I made a cheap sob...
Many corvette enthusiasts demand manuals and many of us manual drivers want a dct and no time a torque converter automatic...in our next new corvette.
Computers activating the clutch pedal that’s no longer needed is all that’s missing..
Dam computers just do it faster and more consistently perfect...
That said..manuals will be available as standard for the c8 ..
06-03-2018, 09:10 AM
#173
Le Mans Master
After all the heart attacks on this forum from unofficial rumors that no manual transmission is on the horizon for the c8 ...
Maybe the reason Harlan looked at you as if you were from Mars..it’s because GM plans on having the c8 come standard with a manual transmission and then charge thousands more for its new dct transmission.
This pattern allows GM to offer a lower base msrp and gets the consumer spending loading on the options...
Since 77 percent of corvette s were sold with an added extra cost automatic transmission...GM is able to advertise a low base msrp for the car and then ship out their c8s with that option list checked off...
Harlan looked at you crazy because he knows the manual will be standard and 77 percentage of customers will have to start checking off the extra cost options to get their new dct.
Porsche charges around 4grand for it’s dct.
Maybe the reason Harlan looked at you as if you were from Mars..it’s because GM plans on having the c8 come standard with a manual transmission and then charge thousands more for its new dct transmission.
This pattern allows GM to offer a lower base msrp and gets the consumer spending loading on the options...
Since 77 percent of corvette s were sold with an added extra cost automatic transmission...GM is able to advertise a low base msrp for the car and then ship out their c8s with that option list checked off...
Harlan looked at you crazy because he knows the manual will be standard and 77 percentage of customers will have to start checking off the extra cost options to get their new dct.
Porsche charges around 4grand for it’s dct.
06-03-2018, 09:10 AM
#174
Le Mans Master
Originally Posted by JerriVette
After all the heart attacks on this forum from unofficial rumors that no manual transmission is on the horizon for the c8 ...
Maybe the reason Harlan looked at you as if you were from Mars..it’s because GM plans on having the c8 come standard with a manual transmission and then charge thousands more for its new dct transmission.
This pattern allows GM to offer a lower base msrp and gets the consumer spending loading on the options...
Since 77 percent of corvette s were sold with an added extra cost automatic transmission...GM is able to advertise a low base msrp for the car and then ship out their c8s with that option list checked off...
Harlan looked at you crazy because he knows the manual will be standard and 77 percentage of customers will have to start checking off the extra cost options to get their new dct.
Porsche charges around 4grand for it’s dct.
Maybe the reason Harlan looked at you as if you were from Mars..it’s because GM plans on having the c8 come standard with a manual transmission and then charge thousands more for its new dct transmission.
This pattern allows GM to offer a lower base msrp and gets the consumer spending loading on the options...
Since 77 percent of corvette s were sold with an added extra cost automatic transmission...GM is able to advertise a low base msrp for the car and then ship out their c8s with that option list checked off...
Harlan looked at you crazy because he knows the manual will be standard and 77 percentage of customers will have to start checking off the extra cost options to get their new dct.
Porsche charges around 4grand for it’s dct.
06-03-2018, 09:42 AM
#175
I'd look at the sales you could generate when the vehicle is released, which is actually greater than all manual transmission sales in the US market 30 years ago (That Z06 number is way too good to ignore). I would also look at dealer allocated orders vs actual customer orders. That should play a huge role in determining the trend of the Corvette specific market going forward.[/QUOTE]
The buyer at my dealership only orders autos for stock. His thought is someone walking in wanting a manual will buy an auto, but someone wanting an auto wont buy a manual. The fact he has never driven a manual might have some influence.
The buyer at my dealership only orders autos for stock. His thought is someone walking in wanting a manual will buy an auto, but someone wanting an auto wont buy a manual. The fact he has never driven a manual might have some influence.
06-03-2018, 02:03 PM
#176
I've always had manuals.
Back in the old days when automatics were rightfully derided as "slush boxes", there was a definite performance advantage with a manual. These days, despite much improved automatics, I buy a manual mostly because it's cheaper and I'd rather spend that money on some other cool options.
If the ME only comes with a DCT, I'll be happy to try it. If it comes with a base manual and optional DCT, I may be tempted but it will depend on the upcharge.
I always thought I'd end up with a DCT when buying a GTI (when I get too old to climb in and out of sports cars) but experiencing it in a brand new Corvette would be highly acceptable alternative.
Back in the old days when automatics were rightfully derided as "slush boxes", there was a definite performance advantage with a manual. These days, despite much improved automatics, I buy a manual mostly because it's cheaper and I'd rather spend that money on some other cool options.
If the ME only comes with a DCT, I'll be happy to try it. If it comes with a base manual and optional DCT, I may be tempted but it will depend on the upcharge.
I always thought I'd end up with a DCT when buying a GTI (when I get too old to climb in and out of sports cars) but experiencing it in a brand new Corvette would be highly acceptable alternative.
06-03-2018, 02:25 PM
#177
Drifting
I am making the conversion from 53 clutched manuals in a row to the DCT. Times change and engineering advances, and so I am going to do likewise.
I like what Tadge once said, “imagine if the automatic came first, and someone asked would you like to change to a slower car with its extra pedal?”
I like what Tadge once said, “imagine if the automatic came first, and someone asked would you like to change to a slower car with its extra pedal?”
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Michael A (06-03-2018)
06-03-2018, 02:49 PM
#178
Safety Car
Correct, and all 1954’s were Powerglides also. And while we know that the manual was introduced for 1955’s, until the middle of that model year, all V8’s also only came with an automatic trans.
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Michael A (06-03-2018)
06-03-2018, 02:56 PM
#179
Le Mans Master
The Corvette manual people are very dedicated to their transmissions. If Chevy drops the manual in the Corvette, I would not want to be on the receiving end of all the complaints. I wouldn't be surprised to see protests and marches out in front of the plant.
Last edited by Michael A; 06-03-2018 at 03:10 PM.
06-03-2018, 03:01 PM
#180
Le Mans Master
That's my point exactly. How far are we going to take this before the car is driving itself? I still want to drive. That's why I turn off all the nannies if I am in the mood to drive, and I shift and clutch the car.