Many Corvette Options for the next couple of years
06-04-2018, 03:41 AM
#21
just a quick followup..and sorry so long above...
an inexpensive (relatively) possibility is that gm might stop a year to get us all excited about the new ME Vette and all the possibilities.. they don't need any profit from the old FE version.. all they would have to do is offer the camaro top of the line with a top dollar buy back if you trade it in for a ME Vette when its released.. hell , I might even bite on that one ...or a too good to pass up lease on a ZL1 camaro... that terminates when your Vette arrives with a 10k deposit on the ME Vette as a condition..
they have tons of ways to write programs of market push because the camaro got so close to the FE. gm has. all the cards on this one.. the blue sky is unlimited for them to spin us into a frenzy of ME love and give us a beefy camaro as an appetizer... with just contracts and paper is much cheaper than actually building more FE cars that sit on the lot while people wait out the ME..
an inexpensive (relatively) possibility is that gm might stop a year to get us all excited about the new ME Vette and all the possibilities.. they don't need any profit from the old FE version.. all they would have to do is offer the camaro top of the line with a top dollar buy back if you trade it in for a ME Vette when its released.. hell , I might even bite on that one ...or a too good to pass up lease on a ZL1 camaro... that terminates when your Vette arrives with a 10k deposit on the ME Vette as a condition..
they have tons of ways to write programs of market push because the camaro got so close to the FE. gm has. all the cards on this one.. the blue sky is unlimited for them to spin us into a frenzy of ME love and give us a beefy camaro as an appetizer... with just contracts and paper is much cheaper than actually building more FE cars that sit on the lot while people wait out the ME..
06-04-2018, 12:11 PM
#22
Le Mans Master
If the mid engine is the C8, then it will be the end of the front engine. Why would they continue to build the "old" car, when they have just rolled production on the latest and greatest? It would be like them saying, "We have finally built the ultimate Corvette that we've been dreaming about for 50 years, but we're going to keep building the old one, just in case you don't like it." That is not a winning marketing strategy.
By separating the real sports/super cars from the super GTs they found a willing market for both.
Last edited by MitchAlsup; 06-04-2018 at 12:12 PM.
06-04-2018, 12:49 PM
#23
It's really up to GM if they want to risk competing in the 100K+ market, which can be brutal competition if the vehicle is not priced correctly or seen as undesirable. (Viper/NSX as recent examples) If they do want to price the ME up there, then yea I think they offer a re-skinned FE design as the C8 and update it accordingly.
At around 150K+ you start to compete with the used exotic market as well. A lot of people buying six figure sports cars are interested in prestige, status, rarity, and branding. Performance isn't enough. You're just not going to sell as many Corvettes here as they can at 65K. And GM is just not going to give up on selling 25K-30K+ cars a year.
And let's be honest, GM didn't invest in that new plant to just sell a few thousand ME cars a year. That plant has the potential to put serious volume out there.
At around 150K+ you start to compete with the used exotic market as well. A lot of people buying six figure sports cars are interested in prestige, status, rarity, and branding. Performance isn't enough. You're just not going to sell as many Corvettes here as they can at 65K. And GM is just not going to give up on selling 25K-30K+ cars a year.
And let's be honest, GM didn't invest in that new plant to just sell a few thousand ME cars a year. That plant has the potential to put serious volume out there.
06-04-2018, 07:02 PM
#24
Safety Car
The IHS Markit Engine Forecast lists 2020 Corvette production as 19,000 ME ‘s and 14,000 FE’s.
Last edited by elegant; 06-04-2018 at 07:03 PM.
06-04-2018, 07:11 PM
#25
Melting Slicks
or is it Y1 and Y2?
because if it’s Y1 and Y2 it could mean ,
theres somewhat of a chassis difference and their referring to coupe and convertible.
06-04-2018, 08:26 PM
#26
Safety Car
There are no chassis differences between the convertible and the coupe in the C7 gen. In an of itself, that does not guarantee that this might not occur for the ME.
However, much more importantly, based on some whispering on the side and look at the Markit Forecast closely, I believe that it refers to FE’s as Y1’s and ME’s as Y2’s. Corroborating this, is that there are no more Y1 Corvettes listed in the Markit Forecast after the next few years. (I just checked and confirmed this.)
Clearly the new ME is going to be made in both its coupe or its convertible versions after those few years.
However, much more importantly, based on some whispering on the side and look at the Markit Forecast closely, I believe that it refers to FE’s as Y1’s and ME’s as Y2’s. Corroborating this, is that there are no more Y1 Corvettes listed in the Markit Forecast after the next few years. (I just checked and confirmed this.)
Clearly the new ME is going to be made in both its coupe or its convertible versions after those few years.
Last edited by elegant; 06-04-2018 at 08:42 PM.
06-04-2018, 08:44 PM
#27
Le Mans Master
Originally Posted by dollarbill
It is pretty widely accepted that the C7 FE will be made at Bowling Green at the same time as the C8 for at least 2 years. This means that you can buy a new Stingray starting at about $56k w/460 HP or a new Gran Sport starting at about $65k w/460 HP or a new Z06 starting at about $79k w/650 HP or a new ZR1 starting at about $120k w/755 HP. Each of the previous models come in a convertible with a higher starting price. So with the continuation of the C7 FE there are 8 choices each with various trim levels. Now add the C8 ME and it is speculated there will be at least 2 models one with 600 HP and a twin turbo version with 800 HP. Starting prices are speculated to be under $99k and $150k respectively. This means there will be 10 models of new corvettes available for sale in the near future. Is Corvette headed for its own brand with separate showrooms?
06-04-2018, 08:49 PM
#28
Le Mans Master
Originally Posted by jma242
It's really up to GM if they want to risk competing in the 100K+ market, which can be brutal competition if the vehicle is not priced correctly or seen as undesirable. (Viper/NSX as recent examples) If they do want to price the ME up there, then yea I think they offer a re-skinned FE design as the C8 and update it accordingly.
At around 150K+ you start to compete with the used exotic market as well. A lot of people buying six figure sports cars are interested in prestige, status, rarity, and branding. Performance isn't enough. You're just not going to sell as many Corvettes here as they can at 65K. And GM is just not going to give up on selling 25K-30K+ cars a year.
And let's be honest, GM didn't invest in that new plant to just sell a few thousand ME cars a year. That plant has the potential to put serious volume out there.
At around 150K+ you start to compete with the used exotic market as well. A lot of people buying six figure sports cars are interested in prestige, status, rarity, and branding. Performance isn't enough. You're just not going to sell as many Corvettes here as they can at 65K. And GM is just not going to give up on selling 25K-30K+ cars a year.
And let's be honest, GM didn't invest in that new plant to just sell a few thousand ME cars a year. That plant has the potential to put serious volume out there.
06-04-2018, 09:23 PM
#29
So it IS possible to sell Corvettes as a different brand. They'll just be sold from regular Chevrolet dealerships, but part of it cordoned off to show and sell just the Corvettes. Overhead for most dealership will still be the same (same Finance department, small subset of high performing sales associates trained to handle additional Corvette sales) except for a small investment to upgrade part of the facilities.
06-04-2018, 09:26 PM
#30
At that small quantity, they can afford to charge whatever they want and build whatever they want.
06-04-2018, 09:41 PM
#31
I don't have any insight. Let's just get THAT out of the way. Everything I type and you read from me are speculation.
But I'm pretty good at speculation.
Coming from "outside" the Corvette community, I bought my first Corvette not because of the super car like performance, but because of the supercar like performance at a relatively AFFORDABLE price. If the C7 Grand Sport I just bought is the same price as a Porsche GT3? I'd buy the GT3. No offense. Unless it offers performance that far out-strip the GT3 I probably won't even cross shop.
So if Chevrolet pumps out a ME C8 with the base engine pumping 4xx hp for $85K+ base? At that price point I'd rather get a BMW M3, because it has 2 more usable backseat. Or Porsche Cayman S (despite the lack in HP) if ME is what I'm looking for. Frankly, a $8xK+ "base" Corvette is not enticing at all, even if it's mid engine. Because the handling dynamics isn't going to be world changing better than the C7 (the way the V8 sit so far back in the front, it's ALMOST a mid engine car) unless they go push-rod type double a-arm coil-over shock suspension design like über exotics (McLaren, Ferrari LaFerrari, etc) or if the ME design somehow allow Chevrolet to drop another 300 lbs off the weight of the C7 (unlikely).
Seeing how there's NO camouflage FE replacement for the C7, it's foregone conclusion that when the C7 run is up, its replacement WILL be the ME C8. By that logic, for Chevrolet to continue to produce C7 BASE cars at ~$60K alongside base ME C8 at ANY price makes no sense. If you price the base ME C8 at $65-70K, no one will buy any of the base FE C7 under production. Inventory will pile up and Chevrolet is going to have to throw some massive incentives to move the remaining C7. If you price the base ME C8 at more than $70K, all of a sudden the base C7 look very promising, and you end up with C8 inventory piling up.
The product road map, if *I* were the Chevrolet product manager, would be to produce ME C8 in base trim for $60K, a Z51 variant for $65K, Z06 for $75K to start. Maybe launch the Z06 C8 a year or two later. In the mean time, continue to produce ZR1 variant of the C7 for up to 2 years, until the ZR1 version of the C8 is ready to roll with a short 1 year break as the last of the C7 ZR1 rolls out.
Just my opinion.
But I'm pretty good at speculation.
Coming from "outside" the Corvette community, I bought my first Corvette not because of the super car like performance, but because of the supercar like performance at a relatively AFFORDABLE price. If the C7 Grand Sport I just bought is the same price as a Porsche GT3? I'd buy the GT3. No offense. Unless it offers performance that far out-strip the GT3 I probably won't even cross shop.
So if Chevrolet pumps out a ME C8 with the base engine pumping 4xx hp for $85K+ base? At that price point I'd rather get a BMW M3, because it has 2 more usable backseat. Or Porsche Cayman S (despite the lack in HP) if ME is what I'm looking for. Frankly, a $8xK+ "base" Corvette is not enticing at all, even if it's mid engine. Because the handling dynamics isn't going to be world changing better than the C7 (the way the V8 sit so far back in the front, it's ALMOST a mid engine car) unless they go push-rod type double a-arm coil-over shock suspension design like über exotics (McLaren, Ferrari LaFerrari, etc) or if the ME design somehow allow Chevrolet to drop another 300 lbs off the weight of the C7 (unlikely).
Seeing how there's NO camouflage FE replacement for the C7, it's foregone conclusion that when the C7 run is up, its replacement WILL be the ME C8. By that logic, for Chevrolet to continue to produce C7 BASE cars at ~$60K alongside base ME C8 at ANY price makes no sense. If you price the base ME C8 at $65-70K, no one will buy any of the base FE C7 under production. Inventory will pile up and Chevrolet is going to have to throw some massive incentives to move the remaining C7. If you price the base ME C8 at more than $70K, all of a sudden the base C7 look very promising, and you end up with C8 inventory piling up.
The product road map, if *I* were the Chevrolet product manager, would be to produce ME C8 in base trim for $60K, a Z51 variant for $65K, Z06 for $75K to start. Maybe launch the Z06 C8 a year or two later. In the mean time, continue to produce ZR1 variant of the C7 for up to 2 years, until the ZR1 version of the C8 is ready to roll with a short 1 year break as the last of the C7 ZR1 rolls out.
Just my opinion.
06-04-2018, 10:39 PM
#32
Le Mans Master
Ferrari makes ME supercars, GT coupes, heck, I think they even made a station wagon at some point not too long ago.
GM is not going to build and sell a C8 and a C7 at the same time. I can appreciate things like Markit Forecast, though I personally am not familiar with it. However, from that, assuming that it is a credible source, I would read that they are planning a mid engine car, to be sold along the traditional Corvette as a separate entity. Meaning a high performance car that is not the 8th Generation. If it is a six figure car, the projection of 14,000 might be a little optimistic. Of course if Y1 is the current C7, that might be optimistic as well. But either way, they are not going to roll out a new generation, in any form, and still build the old one concurrently, that would be just plain silly. IMHO
06-05-2018, 12:10 AM
#33
very possible Ltobsses... just as you put it... it could be...just as you say... ive no inside info or any real idea..just a marketing take... though if the base price is below 100k usd.. id be surprised. for a new ME car..... just hard to imagine... though it could happen for sure...
if you can get in at less than 100k ... they (me cars) will be everywhere.and the exclusiveness will be gone.... remember in 2002 the Lexus LS 430 convert was 65k... and it was not a monumental car... we are all eager to see where this goes... in any case im in for one... even at 150 as long as that is the upper end and there is no "pinto" press...
we all win...with a ME car...best to everyone.!!!
if you can get in at less than 100k ... they (me cars) will be everywhere.and the exclusiveness will be gone.... remember in 2002 the Lexus LS 430 convert was 65k... and it was not a monumental car... we are all eager to see where this goes... in any case im in for one... even at 150 as long as that is the upper end and there is no "pinto" press...
we all win...with a ME car...best to everyone.!!!
Last edited by bebezote; 06-05-2018 at 12:30 AM.
06-05-2018, 12:29 AM
#34
The Hack "Seeing how there's NO camouflage FE replacement for the C7, it's foregone conclusion that when the C7 run is up, its replacement WILL be the ME C8. By that logic, for Chevrolet to continue to produce C7 BASE cars at ~$60K alongside base ME C8 at ANY price makes no sense. If you price the base ME C8 at $65-70K, no one will buy any of the base FE C7 under production. Inventory will pile up and Chevrolet is going to have to throw some massive incentives to move the remaining C7. If you price the base ME C8 at more than $70K, all of a sudden the base C7 look very promising, and you end up with C8 inventory piling up."
this is correct logic... from a marketing standpoint... there will be no C7 once the C8 is on the market... sincerely..there is just not enough money to make that happen...
Its easy to see a 120 to up to 150 (call it Zr1 ME)... car work...as a "chevy" gets serviced in all 50 states.. and chevy can stand behind an extended warranty (which I will be buying to the max)...(you should too...thats the value)...
take an example ... I sold my yardo for 110... it had only 40% clutch (some have much worse.. I was easy on it.) with only at 25,000 miles...
chevy will never, ever...have a ME Vette that has those poor stats... of a car several years old...
I think we have to look at the new 911 turbo (pdk, incredible but boring in looks only), old gallardo (very good and very successful template for the brand), new nsx (awesome and undervalued car but no real muscle..), as the model(s).. the camaro will fill the spot of any FE car.. and the ME will be the king...
the good part is 120 or so...and a 5-8 year warranty (100k mile) warranty..... this is unheard of in the supercar world...and that will drive the market...
its going to be very, very, very good...(I hope...lol)
this is correct logic... from a marketing standpoint... there will be no C7 once the C8 is on the market... sincerely..there is just not enough money to make that happen...
Its easy to see a 120 to up to 150 (call it Zr1 ME)... car work...as a "chevy" gets serviced in all 50 states.. and chevy can stand behind an extended warranty (which I will be buying to the max)...(you should too...thats the value)...
take an example ... I sold my yardo for 110... it had only 40% clutch (some have much worse.. I was easy on it.) with only at 25,000 miles...
chevy will never, ever...have a ME Vette that has those poor stats... of a car several years old...
I think we have to look at the new 911 turbo (pdk, incredible but boring in looks only), old gallardo (very good and very successful template for the brand), new nsx (awesome and undervalued car but no real muscle..), as the model(s).. the camaro will fill the spot of any FE car.. and the ME will be the king...
the good part is 120 or so...and a 5-8 year warranty (100k mile) warranty..... this is unheard of in the supercar world...and that will drive the market...
its going to be very, very, very good...(I hope...lol)
Last edited by bebezote; 06-05-2018 at 01:30 AM.
06-05-2018, 12:55 AM
#35
the c8 ME will compete DIRECTLY with the 911 turbo.... but not have AWD (from my understanding...what a thought).... it will have Italian looks and German dependability... price my guess is 30-50k less than a loaded 911 turbo (pdk).... and it makes it a very difficult choice... by year 3-5.... if they give it AWD... the c8 will absolutely OWN the market from 90-250k usd.. own it !!!
my god..if they give it awd and launch control...baby.....the Italians and even the 911 will be in real, real bad shape... hell ..best play...
develop it longer... wait 2 years....without a Vette... and release an AWD version... my god... LEGEND !!!!! LEGEND...
my god..if they give it awd and launch control...baby.....the Italians and even the 911 will be in real, real bad shape... hell ..best play...
develop it longer... wait 2 years....without a Vette... and release an AWD version... my god... LEGEND !!!!! LEGEND...
Last edited by bebezote; 06-05-2018 at 01:33 AM.
06-05-2018, 01:25 AM
#36
Hey whatEVER. They're not marketing idiots @ GM, they'll make WAY more profit on the C8 if you can buy a nicely equipped car for under $80K, every $10K more that these highly specialized, VERY limited market pricey *** SPORTS CARS cost (oh what a huge market that is) will EXPONENTIALLY reduce the number of Americans with the $ or the desire to BUY THEM.
This is the Corvette Forum for crissake. Half the single-minded I gotta have a hot pricey sports car weenies are HERE. There aren't THAT many of us, and those numbers get pretty friggin infinitesimal north of $75K for a weekend toy. The LAST thing the world needs is another Ferrari or Porsche selling overpriced cars, you should all be rooting for GM to deliver a world beater car at a price more Americans can afford. That is so core to the Corvette ethos that if GM forgets it, they do so @ their own peril. They can market $140k ZR1's, that's fine. But only because they offer a $60-$70K Corvette for the unwashed johnny-lunchpail-with-a-couple-o-bucks masses that Americans can aspire to and actually own someday.
Last edited by patentcad; 06-05-2018 at 01:29 AM.
06-05-2018, 01:45 AM
#37
hope you're right patentcad.... trying to think of how they do it for less than the zr1....im sure they are trying...
what are the engine possibilities? and drivetrain? if they are already tried and tested units... then it drives down price...
we also have the service issue.. that charge back always goes back to gm... and it can be substantial for a completely new platform...
trying to envision a new engine , tranny, car... electronics, etc.. that is very different from the c7... training of staff (workers at the local chevy garage)...and selling say 15-20k cars a year...funding all this effort... (RnD, tooling, etc)...
just hard to imagine it going out the door for under 100k...and they drive people to the camaro fe bad boy for all the 65-70k usd people... may be missing something... but how much is a full bad boy camaro... ??? I don't know...
if its 65k...then we might as well get ready for a 100k out the door me car... my guess... could be wrong..
be well..
what are the engine possibilities? and drivetrain? if they are already tried and tested units... then it drives down price...
we also have the service issue.. that charge back always goes back to gm... and it can be substantial for a completely new platform...
trying to envision a new engine , tranny, car... electronics, etc.. that is very different from the c7... training of staff (workers at the local chevy garage)...and selling say 15-20k cars a year...funding all this effort... (RnD, tooling, etc)...
just hard to imagine it going out the door for under 100k...and they drive people to the camaro fe bad boy for all the 65-70k usd people... may be missing something... but how much is a full bad boy camaro... ??? I don't know...
if its 65k...then we might as well get ready for a 100k out the door me car... my guess... could be wrong..
be well..
06-05-2018, 01:59 AM
#38
Race Director
Here's a thought:
C8 goes on sale late summer 2019 (as 2020 MY cars). LIMITED C7 production continues (remember, ALL C7's being produced now are 2019 MY) and 2019 MY will be the end for the Stingray and GS. The Z06 and ZR1 continue on for one more model year (2020), to fill the ultra performance void until the higher HP C8's come to market (as 2021 MY cars)
My thinking is that the C8 will intro as a "base" model with a 500HP or so SBC in it. Car will start in the $63,000 - $68,000 range.
If I got this right, I would like the Carnac the Magnificent award....
PS. The C7 is PAID for (tooling/R&D/etc) so what's the worst thing that happens. They sell 2,000 - 3,000 2020MY C7 Z06/ZR1's as the last hurrah of the FE Corvette, it's free money, relatively speaking.
C8 goes on sale late summer 2019 (as 2020 MY cars). LIMITED C7 production continues (remember, ALL C7's being produced now are 2019 MY) and 2019 MY will be the end for the Stingray and GS. The Z06 and ZR1 continue on for one more model year (2020), to fill the ultra performance void until the higher HP C8's come to market (as 2021 MY cars)
My thinking is that the C8 will intro as a "base" model with a 500HP or so SBC in it. Car will start in the $63,000 - $68,000 range.
If I got this right, I would like the Carnac the Magnificent award....
PS. The C7 is PAID for (tooling/R&D/etc) so what's the worst thing that happens. They sell 2,000 - 3,000 2020MY C7 Z06/ZR1's as the last hurrah of the FE Corvette, it's free money, relatively speaking.
Last edited by jimmyb; 06-05-2018 at 02:11 AM.
06-05-2018, 02:12 AM
#39
for sure jimmy...thats possible... just pulled the c7 on wikipedia... as im not a c7 owner...and saw it was a 2013 start... thats 5 years now... and a long haul already...
you could be as right as rain... my guess though is the c7 ends real quick with all the press out there about a me c8...
I can really not imagine any zr1's being even considered new now.. and only highly discounted c7's a possibility.. also looked at camaros..and the zl1 at 65k usd...
the standard way of the market place is always. silver, gold, platinum ... (silver some turbo 4 cyl chevy car that can be boosted with chip, then camaro (all trims)... then platinum the corvette...
that formula is ingrained into our society and for sure into the marketers... hard to imagine a deviation from a model that has worked for so long... though anything is possible..
be well bro..
you could be as right as rain... my guess though is the c7 ends real quick with all the press out there about a me c8...
I can really not imagine any zr1's being even considered new now.. and only highly discounted c7's a possibility.. also looked at camaros..and the zl1 at 65k usd...
the standard way of the market place is always. silver, gold, platinum ... (silver some turbo 4 cyl chevy car that can be boosted with chip, then camaro (all trims)... then platinum the corvette...
that formula is ingrained into our society and for sure into the marketers... hard to imagine a deviation from a model that has worked for so long... though anything is possible..
be well bro..
06-05-2018, 08:23 AM
#40
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There are no chassis differences between the convertible and the coupe in the C7 gen. In an of itself, that does not guarantee that this might not occur for the ME.
However, much more importantly, based on some whispering on the side and look at the Markit Forecast closely, I believe that it refers to FE’s as Y1’s and ME’s as Y2’s. Corroborating this, is that there are no more Y1 Corvettes listed in the Markit Forecast after the next few years. (I just checked and confirmed this.)
Clearly the new ME is going to be made in both its coupe or its convertible versions after those few years.
However, much more importantly, based on some whispering on the side and look at the Markit Forecast closely, I believe that it refers to FE’s as Y1’s and ME’s as Y2’s. Corroborating this, is that there are no more Y1 Corvettes listed in the Markit Forecast after the next few years. (I just checked and confirmed this.)
Clearly the new ME is going to be made in both its coupe or its convertible versions after those few years.
On point info amongst all the speculation
Last edited by DebRedZR1; 06-05-2018 at 08:23 AM.