Manual a thing of the past?
07-08-2018, 07:17 AM
#21
Team Owner
Member Since: Jun 2005
Location: Northern, VA
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St. Jude Donor '15
"In honor of jpee"
I think of a "DCT" trans as an automatic that can be shifted, and works consistently quicker than most people can shift a "manual" trans car. In a way, the manual-with-clutch-pedal transmission is like a computer without automatic spelling correction. Or, another way to think of a manual transmission is like a crank-handle starting method----you get the full experience of bringing an engine from rest to reciprocating.life. Neither older-gen techniques are as efficient, or consistently effective.
That said, for now I'd still like to have a clutch-pedal car!
Note: As all the "improvements" become standard rather than options (like lane-change assist, automatic braking, even traction control and ABS), the things drivers "used to do" will become just that: things of the past. And the next step, which will be one of the biggest, is no-driver input other than getting in and out. jmo
That said, for now I'd still like to have a clutch-pedal car!
Note: As all the "improvements" become standard rather than options (like lane-change assist, automatic braking, even traction control and ABS), the things drivers "used to do" will become just that: things of the past. And the next step, which will be one of the biggest, is no-driver input other than getting in and out. jmo
07-08-2018, 08:15 AM
#22
Le Mans Master
Member Since: Jul 2000
Location: North Dallas 40 TX
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Well, duh. It meets your definition. Even the torque converter automatics are not you "slushboxes" of old. One advantage of the torque converter auto over a DSG or DCT is the torque converter which provides torque multiplication. It also makes for smoother shifts with less wear on clutch packs for those times you want a smooth shift over a snappy shift.
07-08-2018, 09:08 AM
#23
Team Owner
Well, duh. It meets your definition. Even the torque converter automatics are not you "slushboxes" of old. One advantage of the torque converter auto over a DSG or DCT is the torque converter which provides torque multiplication. It also makes for smoother shifts with less wear on clutch packs for those times you want a smooth shift over a snappy shift.
Acura uses a DCT with a torque convertor and GM has a patent on a DCT with a torque convertor. Just to scramble your brains this Sunday morning.
07-08-2018, 09:44 AM
#24
Le Mans Master
Originally Posted by vetteman41960
I think you may have missed my point about the DCT.
I have driven many manuals and my 2015 Z06 was what I traded in on my 2016 SC757.
I guess for my what makes a manual transmission fun is the mental thought process and the freedom to precisely chose which gear and exactly when you want the car to shift and the reaction of the car to that gear change . These experiences are all there with a DCT just happen much faster than any driver no matter how good or experienced in driving a manual could ever hope to achieve.
The closest the C7 can come to that is when your performing no lift shift.
Even then there still a power interruption in that moment it require to engage and disengage the clutch.
I never found in all my year of driving a manual that the enjoyment came from pressing a clutch peddle or king the gear lever. For me the enjoyment was the precise control.
I never had anyone who is a car guy drive or ride in my 15 458 that did not comment on how unbelievable the shift speeds are and get a Hugh smile in snapping off lighten fast shift with absolutely no interruption of the power delivery.
Again if you DCT experience was in a VW or Cayman or similarly low power car I could completely understand why you may be underwhelmed by the experience .
If you a car guy and most likely you are as your on this forum all I can say is if you have not driven a late model Ferrari or late model Lamborghini that have power level similar to a Corvette but with a DCT you really owe it to yourself to drive one and do so while driving it as you would when hustling trough manual gear changes at a rapid pace I bet you would not be board but find the experience truly a blast.
I sure everyone would agree driving a manual in slow stop and go traffic is not exciting or fun. Really the fun comes when your hustling the car and setting up for cornering or coming off the line that is the fun part of a manual transmission as you have control of exactly what you want the car to do.
With a Great set up DCT you have all the same control and can make those changes in dynamics happen at a faster pace than any driver ever could in a manual.
But for those that truly enjoy the pysical aspect of pushing a clutch or moving a gear lever I suppose that you must be having a real blast in stop and go traffic shifting from 1st to 2nd to 1st to 2nd to 1st to 2nd. Now that to me is utterly boaring.
The lack of DCT is the only thing holding back the C7 from being a world class driving experience.
I say that and that from a Corvette loyalist on Corvette number 11 and excited to have a space in my garage to add the upcoming C8.
I hope GM offer 3 things 550 plus horse power and a HTC roof and a DCT trans. I have no doubt the car will be packed with the latest and greatest tech and in true GM fashion will be absolutely gorgeous to look at and a blast to drive.
I have driven many manuals and my 2015 Z06 was what I traded in on my 2016 SC757.
I guess for my what makes a manual transmission fun is the mental thought process and the freedom to precisely chose which gear and exactly when you want the car to shift and the reaction of the car to that gear change . These experiences are all there with a DCT just happen much faster than any driver no matter how good or experienced in driving a manual could ever hope to achieve.
The closest the C7 can come to that is when your performing no lift shift.
Even then there still a power interruption in that moment it require to engage and disengage the clutch.
I never found in all my year of driving a manual that the enjoyment came from pressing a clutch peddle or king the gear lever. For me the enjoyment was the precise control.
I never had anyone who is a car guy drive or ride in my 15 458 that did not comment on how unbelievable the shift speeds are and get a Hugh smile in snapping off lighten fast shift with absolutely no interruption of the power delivery.
Again if you DCT experience was in a VW or Cayman or similarly low power car I could completely understand why you may be underwhelmed by the experience .
If you a car guy and most likely you are as your on this forum all I can say is if you have not driven a late model Ferrari or late model Lamborghini that have power level similar to a Corvette but with a DCT you really owe it to yourself to drive one and do so while driving it as you would when hustling trough manual gear changes at a rapid pace I bet you would not be board but find the experience truly a blast.
I sure everyone would agree driving a manual in slow stop and go traffic is not exciting or fun. Really the fun comes when your hustling the car and setting up for cornering or coming off the line that is the fun part of a manual transmission as you have control of exactly what you want the car to do.
With a Great set up DCT you have all the same control and can make those changes in dynamics happen at a faster pace than any driver ever could in a manual.
But for those that truly enjoy the pysical aspect of pushing a clutch or moving a gear lever I suppose that you must be having a real blast in stop and go traffic shifting from 1st to 2nd to 1st to 2nd to 1st to 2nd. Now that to me is utterly boaring.
The lack of DCT is the only thing holding back the C7 from being a world class driving experience.
I say that and that from a Corvette loyalist on Corvette number 11 and excited to have a space in my garage to add the upcoming C8.
I hope GM offer 3 things 550 plus horse power and a HTC roof and a DCT trans. I have no doubt the car will be packed with the latest and greatest tech and in true GM fashion will be absolutely gorgeous to look at and a blast to drive.
To try and make my point better, if I had an automatic Corvette and a manual trans Miata in my garage, I would likely drive the Miata more often.
I understand you get enjoyment from it and that is great.
07-08-2018, 11:21 AM
#26
Melting Slicks
Thread Starter
Wrong. "People" generally use the term "automatic" to mean a transmission that does not have a clutch PEDAL and does not REQUIRE the driver to manually switch gears utilizing said clutch PEDAL. The fact that a DCT has "clutch packs" and other internal parts or the fact that the "C" in DCT stands for "clutch" does not matter even a little bit. It's irrelevant to any but the most pedantic. If it has a "PRND" shifter, it's an automatic, paddles notwithstanding. I'm cool with the fact that the next Corvette will have a DCT, but let's not pretend it is any way a manual transmission. That is completely misleading.
What I don't want to see is the present set up, floor shifted auto PRND along with paddles...
It should mimic the Ferrari or lambo type looks those cars have....
Never drove a Ferrari or a lambo but don't these cars have a button where you can just put it in drive mode?
07-08-2018, 11:57 AM
#27
Melting Slicks
I do not mean this to come across the wrong way, but you do not understand why driving a manual is more enjoyable for me. Shift speed has nothing to do with it at all. I forced myself to drive the Audi with paddles daily for months thinking I just had to get used to it. In the end it came across as toy like and gimmicky to me. I ended up leaving the car in auto for the rest of the time we owned it. For ME personally playing with paddle shifters does not provide any satisfaction.
To try and make my point better, if I had an automatic Corvette and a manual trans Miata in my garage, I would likely drive the Miata more often.
I understand you get enjoyment from it and that is great.
To try and make my point better, if I had an automatic Corvette and a manual trans Miata in my garage, I would likely drive the Miata more often.
I understand you get enjoyment from it and that is great.
Last edited by fasttoys; 07-08-2018 at 12:01 PM.
07-08-2018, 12:40 PM
#28
Team Owner
A DCT is not an automatic as people generally use the term.
An automatic transmission has a fluid clutch (converter) sometimes with a lockup clutch on the converter. The rotation of the outer converter ring (turbine) causes fluid to circulate and drive the inner ring (turbine), allowing for slippage without wear.
A DCT has 2 clutch packs, one driving the even gears, the other driving the odd gears, these clutch packs contain friction plates and drive plates; pretty much like manual clutches.
An automatic transmission has a fluid clutch (converter) sometimes with a lockup clutch on the converter. The rotation of the outer converter ring (turbine) causes fluid to circulate and drive the inner ring (turbine), allowing for slippage without wear.
A DCT has 2 clutch packs, one driving the even gears, the other driving the odd gears, these clutch packs contain friction plates and drive plates; pretty much like manual clutches.
Last edited by JoesC5; 07-08-2018 at 12:42 PM.
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3 Z06ZR1 (07-21-2018)
07-08-2018, 02:13 PM
#29
Le Mans Master
Originally Posted by fasttoys
I am a big manual guy and sold my 2015 z06 and recently my R8 manual. I am waiting for the new ME been on list for year plus and looking for another R8. When you have a high powered super fast rev car like a 458 a Dual Clutch is the only way to keep up and enjoy the experience. I could not emagine if Ferrari created a manual on that car and how exhausted you would be after a fun spirited drive. I do get both your points but fast rev high powered sports cars need a DCT which allows the next gear to be waiting for the shift. i have driven and owned many sports cars.Lambos Mclarans Ferrari and other high powered cars. Fast rev cars IMO are more fun with a DCT. The Lexus LFA V10 rev”s so fast the engineers had to use a digital dash to keep up as a needle could not. Bad new with at-ominous cars for the future,less manufacturers producing manuals, manual demand decline with less people knowing how to drive them, manuals will eventually go away. Good news for us that have them we will see the values flatten out and even increase in values. Look up a Manual Ferrari good luck they are going up like crazy in value.
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Corgidog1 (07-17-2018)
07-08-2018, 02:33 PM
#30
Drifting
I have heard so many guys on this forum insist on driving a manual transmission. All I can say is spend 1 day driving a high performance car with a proper DCT like the 458 or Hurican and you be sold.
DCT give you complete control just like a manual but snaps of shift that are brilliantly quick. Really a fun driving experience .
DCT give you complete control just like a manual but snaps of shift that are brilliantly quick. Really a fun driving experience .
07-08-2018, 04:13 PM
#31
Le Mans Master
In a manual, you can take the tranny out of gear, brake, brake some more, and drop the shifter into 2nd, release the clutch and its all done in one shift.
Can you do that in the 458 gearbox?
If not, then you don't have complete control.
07-08-2018, 04:45 PM
#32
Let's see, you are coming up on a turn that requires you to be in second gear and you are currently in 7th.
In a manual, you can take the tranny out of gear, brake, brake some more, and drop the shifter into 2nd, release the clutch and its all done in one shift.
Can you do that in the 458 gearbox?
If not, then you don't have complete control.
In a manual, you can take the tranny out of gear, brake, brake some more, and drop the shifter into 2nd, release the clutch and its all done in one shift.
Can you do that in the 458 gearbox?
If not, then you don't have complete control.
07-08-2018, 07:53 PM
#33
Let's see, you are coming up on a turn that requires you to be in second gear and you are currently in 7th.
In a manual, you can take the tranny out of gear, brake, brake some more, and drop the shifter into 2nd, release the clutch and its all done in one shift.
Can you do that in the 458 gearbox?
If not, then you don't have complete control.
In a manual, you can take the tranny out of gear, brake, brake some more, and drop the shifter into 2nd, release the clutch and its all done in one shift.
Can you do that in the 458 gearbox?
If not, then you don't have complete control.
The downshift are lighting quick so anything you chose to do with a manual you can do faster with a DCT.
Have you every driven a DCT in a high performance sports car like Ferrari Lamborghini or Maclaren?
There is a reason the best sports cars in the world all come with a DCT standard.
It is really a great transmission in the 458 very smooth in auto mode and unbelievably fast shift in manual mode.
I can say with a lot of confidence that the videos I seen of the C8 the multiple shift you see as the car takes off from a stop is very same shift pattern you will see in a DCT.
I just find it funny that folks / car guys who have never driven a exotic with a DCT can be so sure that they would prefer a manual.
To each their own but if you have not given a true high performance DCT a try you really should.
07-09-2018, 08:24 AM
#34
Racer
The question of which is the best is always decided by which makes the car faster in a race. In the old days automatics were always slower (except for special 'racing' transmissions) so the guys for whom 'Winning the race' was the only consideration chose manuals for the quicker shift times. Now, no 'clutch foot' can beat a paddle shift transmission in shift time so the guys for whom 'Winning the race' is the ONLY acceptable result are not going to accept being beat by that damn 'automatic slush-box paddle shifter' in the next lane. As long as the manufacturers provide the slower 'clutch foot cars' for the purists, you can have your cake if manual shifting is what you want, BUT, you can't 'EAT THE CAKE' too by always winning the race. The races will be decided by 'whoever' can control the car's traction problem the best, which was always the next thing a guy driving a powerful car had to do.
07-09-2018, 09:31 AM
#35
Le Mans Master
Originally Posted by sjhanc
The question of which is the best is always decided by which makes the car faster in a race.
07-09-2018, 09:35 AM
#36
Team Owner
Let's see, you are coming up on a turn that requires you to be in second gear and you are currently in 7th.
In a manual, you can take the tranny out of gear, brake, brake some more, and drop the shifter into 2nd, release the clutch and its all done in one shift.
Can you do that in the 458 gearbox?
If not, then you don't have complete control.
In a manual, you can take the tranny out of gear, brake, brake some more, and drop the shifter into 2nd, release the clutch and its all done in one shift.
Can you do that in the 458 gearbox?
If not, then you don't have complete control.
I bet that a DCT can downshift from 5th to 2nd gear faster than you can downshift your manual transmission from 5th to 2nd gear, and when it's time to upshift from 2nd to 3rd and 3rd to 4th and 4th to 5th, the DCT can make those shifts faster than you can with your manual transmission.
Last edited by JoesC5; 07-09-2018 at 12:49 PM.
07-09-2018, 11:17 AM
#37
Racer
It is not 'My criteria' for which is best, just a simple statement of the 'facts' as they are today. Who knows, Corvette might invent a super manual shifter that changes everything. The manual shift lovers can cut down and try to embarrass the automatic guys all they want, but that won't make the manual gear box cars better performing than paddle shift. And Corvette buyers are already voting for the automatics by buying the greater number of cars.
I drove and raced manual shift cars all my life (including 2 C2 Vettes, one of which I raced), I enjoy shifting gears, but an injury to my left foot at age 19 has come back to prevent me from any more clutch stomping. I am happy to still be able to drive a Vette, even if it has to be, in my case, an automatic car. I still think that there is room for both types.
I drove and raced manual shift cars all my life (including 2 C2 Vettes, one of which I raced), I enjoy shifting gears, but an injury to my left foot at age 19 has come back to prevent me from any more clutch stomping. I am happy to still be able to drive a Vette, even if it has to be, in my case, an automatic car. I still think that there is room for both types.
07-09-2018, 11:54 AM
#38
Banned Scam/Spammer
I think you may have missed my point about the DCT.
I never had anyone who is a car guy drive or ride in my 15 458 that did not comment on how unbelievable the shift speeds are and get a Hugh smile in snapping off lighten fast shift with absolutely no interruption of the power delivery.
Again if you DCT experience was in a VW or Cayman or similarly low power car I could completely understand why you may be underwhelmed by the experience .
If you a car guy and most likely you are as your on this forum all I can say is if you have not driven a late model Ferrari or late model Lamborghini that have power level similar to a Corvette but with a DCT you really owe it to yourself to drive one and do so while driving it as you would when hustling trough manual gear changes at a rapid pace I bet you would not be board but find the experience truly a blast.
I never had anyone who is a car guy drive or ride in my 15 458 that did not comment on how unbelievable the shift speeds are and get a Hugh smile in snapping off lighten fast shift with absolutely no interruption of the power delivery.
Again if you DCT experience was in a VW or Cayman or similarly low power car I could completely understand why you may be underwhelmed by the experience .
If you a car guy and most likely you are as your on this forum all I can say is if you have not driven a late model Ferrari or late model Lamborghini that have power level similar to a Corvette but with a DCT you really owe it to yourself to drive one and do so while driving it as you would when hustling trough manual gear changes at a rapid pace I bet you would not be board but find the experience truly a blast.
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pdiddy972 (09-03-2018)
07-09-2018, 12:51 PM
#39
Team Owner
I bet the majority of Corvette owners don't give a **** about how fast the transmission shifts.
