Here is what Autoline said about the C7 and C8
07-28-2018, 09:56 AM
#81
Race Director
You are low - the basest ME will be the equivalent of the current Z51 1LT with an A8 (DCT or SMG). ME's cost a little more to build and the C7 hasn't had a price increase since 2016, so a 10% price increase should be expected - if you look at 1LT Z51 A8, it has a $63,315 MSRP - add 10% and you are at $69,646 - the base price of the ME with destination will be $69,995.
That gets said all the time but no one ever explains WHY.
The Alfa Romeo 4C is ALL carbon fiber and it's under $60K.
07-28-2018, 11:28 AM
#82
If Corvette offers a refreshed FE C7 with 500 hp standard and manual trans. option for $7K less than the ME, would you still choose the ME regardless? Why do you think Corvette buyers are demanding a ME? Nobody has shown that most Corvette buyers will pay $7K more just to get a ME. So a ME as the only Corvette would be a major risk for GM.
Last edited by RonnieC6Z; 07-28-2018 at 11:29 AM.
07-28-2018, 12:08 PM
#83
Melting Slicks
Mid-engine cars: Many of the components radiator lines and other stuff have to be run through the side or center to the rear engine. (Cooling lines radiators list goes on). That alone cost more money. Complexity of crash standards and packaging since nothing else in GM line up is a ME. (Complexity in sharing parts)
Front Engine: Most of the components are located in the same area as the engine. Reduces cost. All cars in GM line up have front engine ( complexity and sharing components is not as difficult).
Last edited by fasttoys; 07-28-2018 at 12:27 PM.
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07-28-2018, 12:17 PM
#84
https://www.windingroad.com/articles...ed-at-le-mans/
Those cars are NOT comparable to their street-legal versions in any way, shape, or form.
Last edited by sunsalem; 07-28-2018 at 12:17 PM.
07-28-2018, 12:55 PM
#85
07-28-2018, 01:48 PM
#86
Race Director
it’s been on Autoline with a previous corvette engineer, He said ME cost more to produce compared to an FE. I posted the video a year ago, I am to lazy to look it up. To compare the Alfa 4C as the bench mark of a low price ME car is not good comparison. I owned a 15 and many of the components are shared with cheap *** models in the Chrysler line up. The carbon tub is truly the only exotic part on that car. Other than the tub the car is not that great. My 2015 cayman GTS was far better and my R8 was in another league. I had a 2011 Frankenstein Lotus Evora and that car was better than the Alfa 4C. Build quality was not to great on the Lotus, many of the inside panels used Velcro to secure them. The instrument dash pad would fly off all the time because the Texas heat made the Velcro glue to lose stickyness. Crazy and that had a MSRP of 87k.
Mid-engine cars: Many of the components radiator lines and other stuff have to be run through the side or center to the rear engine. (Cooling lines radiators list goes on). That alone cost more money. Complexity of crash standards and packaging since nothing else in GM line up is a ME. (Complexity in sharing parts)
Front Engine: Most of the components are located in the same area as the engine. Reduces cost. All cars in GM line up have front engine ( complexity and sharing components is not as difficult).
So, if the 4C is a bad comparison, how about the Boxster/Cayman twins. They are Porsche's only ME regular production cars and they are priced very close to the C7.
Last edited by jimmyb; 07-28-2018 at 01:51 PM.
07-28-2018, 04:38 PM
#87
Melting Slicks
OK. It's not like the C7 doesn't share "cheap ***" GM parts as well (Infotainment system, turn signal/windshield wiper stalks, HVAC, ENGINES, etc). and I sure don't think radiator hoses are THAT expensive. BCM/ECM don't care WHERE they are located on the car, they cost what they cost. Tadge said many years ago that he could produce a ME Corvette for $6,000 RETAIL more than the current car, and even that is misleading, as the C5/C6/C7 are VERY similar design/construction wise, so all the REAL big boy R&D costs were paid off a decade and half ago. As an example of this, I put an MGW shifter in my C7, once I had the console apart, looking at the shifter setup was EXACTLY like looking at a C5 or C6. Obviously, the start up of doing an ENTIRELY new car makes the costs higher, 10 years down the road, the ME costs will be down considerably from the first year.
So, if the 4C is a bad comparison, how about the Boxster/Cayman twins. They are Porsche's only ME regular production cars and they are priced very close to the C7.
So, if the 4C is a bad comparison, how about the Boxster/Cayman twins. They are Porsche's only ME regular production cars and they are priced very close to the C7.
The ME is a new direction for GM which will cost them more money to produce. I am very fortunate to have some very high up engineering friends in the auto manufacturing world. In the auto industry a 6k difference is a lot of money especially when it’s spread out during a lifecycle of a product. I have owned many FE & ME exotic sports cars and don’t have a dog in the race. This new venture for GM is going to cost them more to produce and that increase will be passed to us the consumer.
Last edited by fasttoys; 07-29-2018 at 09:54 AM.
07-29-2018, 09:24 AM
#88
Melting Slicks
Stand by to be amazed and “unprecented.” I have predicted elsewhere, and still believe, that GM will not be able to build enough first year ME’s to satisfy sold orders, just as they failed in 2014 when BGA had much greater Plant manufacturing capacity, to produce enough 2014 Stingrays to meet those sold orders.
Even if they build 30,000 ME's year 1, which I agree is likely, they will still need to sell modestly well (above 15,000 units) in years 2-7 (chosen because other than the C2 (5 years) every Corvette generation has been at least 7 years) for the ME to be viable and a C9 to be possible. I am not sure that there are 120,000 ME buyers for the ME car, and that is what is needed for the car as suggested in these threads, with a base price of $70k or less, to be economically feasible (profitable - as opposed to halo car).
07-29-2018, 12:02 PM
#89
BMW m division boss stated to jalopnik that even though manual transmission M vehicle sales make little sense since consumers still buy manuals the m division will offer them.
A) manual transmissions will be available in the c8
B) the price increase on standard c8 s will not jump a strong much as is being discussed on this forum..
C) the front engine model is not going to be produced alongside the rear mid engine model. Left over inventory yes...new front engine model production No. great sales on leftovers so FE lovers....get ready to save big...
A) manual transmissions will be available in the c8
B) the price increase on standard c8 s will not jump a strong much as is being discussed on this forum..
C) the front engine model is not going to be produced alongside the rear mid engine model. Left over inventory yes...new front engine model production No. great sales on leftovers so FE lovers....get ready to save big...
Last edited by C7nut; 07-29-2018 at 12:07 PM.
07-29-2018, 06:11 PM
#90
Le Mans Master
Member Since: Jul 2000
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That is a bit of hyperbole, look at the new NSX. the first year sales have been terrible. That does not bode well for continued production. Now if you mean that just because first year production (which is sometime limited) does not mean the car will be considered successful by the manufacturer, who is looking for breakeven volumes and more based on planned life, then yes. But if first year volumes are well short of 1st production they may just pull the plug for not covering operating costs.
07-29-2018, 08:35 PM
#91
Safety Car
Additionally, as there are always many smaller parts each year that are changed that we never know about (typical 30-50 that change without anyone outside ever knowing anything about those sometimes-minuscule changes), it becomes a humongous operational problem to insure that only 2019 parts would go into 2019 C7’s, and only 2020 parts would go into the ME.
Kai Spande noted that this was the very reason why in January of this year, they choose to end the 2018 model year early and to start the 2019 model year for every Corvette going down the line from January 29th on, i.e., that they would not allow 2018 SR’s, GS’s, and Z06’s going down the same line as the 2019 ZR1. Consequently, GM said, “from this point forward, every single car going down the line will be a 2019 model.”
Last edited by elegant; 07-29-2018 at 08:36 PM.
07-30-2018, 08:21 AM
#92
Drifting
I agree building two model years of the same car at the same time is a near impossibility for the reasons below. As Elegant noted, many parts change at the MY. Many of the parts which change at the model year do so at that time because they need to be changed in conjunction with another part. These are known as coordinated changes within the industry. The need to coordinate the change makes doing them at the model year break attractive as it is a hard change point and is much easier to manage. Parts which do not need to be be coordinated are known as running changes and can be easily brought in during the model year run.
Running two different cars on the same line is very doable as the parts mix up issues is not there. It is done every day at many OEMs. Running a 2019 C7 and a 2020 C8 concurrently should be doable in theory. I don't think GM will do so because I believe once the ME is introduced there will no longer be a FE Corvette.
It will not happen that BGA makes two model years at the same time. There are many Federal and other reporting regulations that make it a logistical and financial nightmare to build two different model years on the same assembly line.
Additionally, as there are always many smaller parts each year that are changed that we never know about (typical 30-50 that change without anyone outside ever knowing anything about those sometimes-minuscule changes), it becomes a humongous operational problem to insure that only 2019 parts would go into 2019 C7’s, and only 2020 parts would go into the ME.
Kai Spande noted that this was the very reason why in January of this year, they choose to end the 2018 model year early and to start the 2019 model year for every Corvette going down the line from January 29th on, i.e., that they would not allow 2018 SR’s, GS’s, and Z06’s going down the same line as the 2019 ZR1. Consequently, GM said, “from this point forward, every single car going down the line will be a 2019 model.”
Running two different cars on the same line is very doable as the parts mix up issues is not there. It is done every day at many OEMs. Running a 2019 C7 and a 2020 C8 concurrently should be doable in theory. I don't think GM will do so because I believe once the ME is introduced there will no longer be a FE Corvette.
It will not happen that BGA makes two model years at the same time. There are many Federal and other reporting regulations that make it a logistical and financial nightmare to build two different model years on the same assembly line.
Additionally, as there are always many smaller parts each year that are changed that we never know about (typical 30-50 that change without anyone outside ever knowing anything about those sometimes-minuscule changes), it becomes a humongous operational problem to insure that only 2019 parts would go into 2019 C7’s, and only 2020 parts would go into the ME.
Kai Spande noted that this was the very reason why in January of this year, they choose to end the 2018 model year early and to start the 2019 model year for every Corvette going down the line from January 29th on, i.e., that they would not allow 2018 SR’s, GS’s, and Z06’s going down the same line as the 2019 ZR1. Consequently, GM said, “from this point forward, every single car going down the line will be a 2019 model.”
Last edited by Boiler_81; 07-30-2018 at 08:25 AM.
07-31-2018, 08:49 AM
#93
Le Mans Master
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The Fiero sold 370k over 5 years, so about 74,000 a year, with one year selling more 130k, an abysmal sales failure against the Corvette I guess. What was Corvette's best sales year over 60 years of production?
Have you even owned a Fiero? How about driven one?
08-06-2018, 03:05 PM
#94
Pro
it has a 4 cyl engine and by the time you add things to it to make it remotely comparable to what is being discussed with the ME, it's over $80k.
08-06-2018, 04:24 PM
#95
Le Mans Master
Originally Posted by jimmyb
Why do mid-engine cars cost more to build?
That gets said all the time but no one ever explains WHY.
The Alfa Romeo 4C is ALL carbon fiber and it's under $60K.
That gets said all the time but no one ever explains WHY.
The Alfa Romeo 4C is ALL carbon fiber and it's under $60K.
08-06-2018, 08:39 PM
#96
Pro
The selling price of a car isn't determined exclusively by any one factor, and to say a ME is always more costly to build probably isn't accurate. Car manufacturers charge what the the market will bear. Porsche made an average of $17,000 profit per car in 2016, and that is because that's the value image Porsche has created for themselves. E.g. the base price of a Porsche 911 (991.2) GT3 RS is $187,500, and I would bet it doesn't cost Porsche an extra $96,400 to build a GT3 vs the base Carrera lists at $91,100. See: https://www.roadandtrack.com/car-cul...er-car-profit/