Question-Why would someone just not buy a Porsche?
08-31-2018, 08:47 AM
#241
Melting Slicks
I don’t know what that outcome would be. However, in the test between the Grand Sport against a Carrera S it wasn’t a contest in either the 0-60 or the quarter. The Carrera S walks it in both tests. Feel free to google the video or read the test comparison. It’s not difficult to find. In summary, I believe the article gave the overall win to the Grand Sport.
08-31-2018, 09:24 AM
#242
Melting Slicks
Another source for your perusal. This backs up my seat of the pants impression between the 2015 c7 z51 I just sold and the 2017 Carrera 2S I currently own. 3.1 and 11.4 respectively
Last edited by Dr. ice; 08-31-2018 at 09:31 AM.
08-31-2018, 09:41 AM
#243
Melting Slicks
pdiddy972 it’s not about numbers to me that is only a small part of my evaluation. It’s the entire driving experience IMO and many of the car magazines that drive both cars think the 911 GT3 is the better all-around car. In the end its my experience as I have driven and owned both these cars. + not a big deal the GT3 retain their values, are more rare as the Z06 depreciates faster and is not as rare. When I did a comparison: my GT3 cost more but lost less money after 2 years of ownership compared to the Z06 because of depreciation. Plus I prefer the feel of a rear or mid-engine car which is why I am excited the new Corvette will be an ME and I been on the wait list since 1/14/2016
Last edited by fasttoys; 08-31-2018 at 10:26 AM.
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ByByBMW (08-31-2018)
08-31-2018, 10:20 AM
#244
Drifting
after you looked up “repartee” then asked your colleague to explain it to u, did u not conclude it was sarcasm? Very Presidential of you!
Switching gears, and addressing Pdiddy and someone’s excellent commentary abt the overall c7, I was taking my Z out on a weekday (which I don’t usu do except I can’t resist it’s new) and thinking what a tour de force it is that a mass market car from GM delivers such world class numbers and driving experience (the looks, that exhaust, the handling, the torque). GM has made quite a comeback since the bankrupcy delivering C7 after C6. And carrying some of the tech advances over to the CTS line and Camaro as well. No disrespect to Porsche, the Vette brand is the up and comer to be reckoned with. It’s highly complimentary to GM that Porch fanboys bother to come on here and defend their 911 and 718 lines which run ~2x the price of C7 line (base to base and top to top of lines) without being faster around a lap (same driver, same track, cars with standard options similarly equipped by MT).
Porsche has been a leader as a mass market car owned by VW but we know Europe does it differently. It had the halo cars of the early homologated racers then the Carrera GT and 918 once upon a time. It also premium prices because it had a niche for luxury comforts and rear engine excellence. Now it faces the realities (including VW emissions debacle) and offers SUVs and sedans. The top of the 911 line is still pretty impressive, so is the Cayman GT4 to me, and the Cayenne is the best SUV I’ve driven (haven’t tried the Stelvio or Bentayaga, but it trounces the Range Rover... I went American again with the Acadia Denali which drives well though doesn’t have the same build quality). And people will still buy the bottom of the 911 line for “prestige.”
Last edited by Parcival; 08-31-2018 at 11:21 AM.
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ArmchairArchitect (08-31-2018)
08-31-2018, 10:23 AM
#245
Race Director
Motor Trend tested a 2017 C2s at 3.1. Porsche historically underestimates their performance, unlike Chevrolet. The S is rated at 420 hp. I am simply reporting verified tested stats so don’t shoot the messenger. I have owned both cars back to back so I don’t need anyone to tell me what the difference is or is not between the two cars. If you have owned both I am happy to hear your opinion.
08-31-2018, 10:24 AM
#246
Melting Slicks
08-31-2018, 10:26 AM
#247
Race Director
I don’t know what that outcome would be. However, in the test between the Grand Sport against a Carrera S it wasn’t a contest in either the 0-60 or the quarter. The Carrera S walks it in both tests. Feel free to google the video or read the test comparison. It’s not difficult to find. In summary, I believe the article gave the overall win to the Grand Sport.
Porsche 918 Proves 0-60 Times Are Total Bullshit
For years, we've measured how fast a car is by two metrics: top speed and 0-60 times. I will now point out that 0-60 times are bullshit, mostly because carmakers (using the Porsche 918 as an example) are gaming the system.This is something that just about everyone knows, since the number of times that regular human beings go from 0-60 is approximately never. Real speed is acceleration from when you are already rolling, like when you're merging onto a highway, or you're powering out of a turn on some backroad.But this realization comes to me from Road and Track's published performance figures for the Porsche 918. The first figure they note is that the Porker (weighing something between 3,715 and 3,858 lbs depending on how you measure) rips from 0-60 as fast a a Bugatti Veyron. That's 2.5 seconds.
R&T go on to give the 918's 5-60 time, a figure that Porsche does not quote. It's 2.8 seconds. That's slower than the car's 0-60 time. How could this be?The answer is simple - carmakers these days are getting very, very good at launch control systems, which perfectly manage the engine's power and the tires' traction to give perfect 0-60 times, every time. Porsche's system, for instance,is so computer-optimized you can launch your car over 50 consecutive times, or while drinking a coke.
R&T go on to give the 918's 5-60 time, a figure that Porsche does not quote. It's 2.8 seconds. That's slower than the car's 0-60 time. How could this be?The answer is simple - carmakers these days are getting very, very good at launch control systems, which perfectly manage the engine's power and the tires' traction to give perfect 0-60 times, every time. Porsche's system, for instance,is so computer-optimized you can launch your car over 50 consecutive times, or while drinking a coke.
Aside from weather correction and rollout, there are plenty of other factors that can change a 0-60 time. Non-standard tires, fuel, and weight can all affect performance testing. Some vehicles with sophisticated launch control systems that are set up for a perfect 0-60 run are actually slower in a rolling 5-60 mph test. Often times, test drivers will use and abuse a vehicle in a way no real owner ever would. Sure, it may put down a faster time, but most owners aren't going to subject their cars to constant 4,500-rpm all-wheel-drive clutch dumps with no-lift shifts.Chevy geared the ZL1 just so you don't have to shift on a sacred 0-60 mph test.
Chevrolet says that the new ZL1 will hit 60 mph in first gear. So what. They geared it that way just so you don't have to shift on a sacred 0-60 mph test. The Camaro isn't even the first GM car to do this. Dodge built the Viper to hit 60 mph in first. Ford did the same thing with the Shelby GT500. They set the cars up just to do well on a single test. Would they drive better with a shorter gearing? Maybe, but then that 0-60 time may rise because a driver would have to shift.
Chevrolet says that the new ZL1 will hit 60 mph in first gear. So what. They geared it that way just so you don't have to shift on a sacred 0-60 mph test. The Camaro isn't even the first GM car to do this. Dodge built the Viper to hit 60 mph in first. Ford did the same thing with the Shelby GT500. They set the cars up just to do well on a single test. Would they drive better with a shorter gearing? Maybe, but then that 0-60 time may rise because a driver would have to shift.
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08-31-2018, 10:27 AM
#248
Melting Slicks
How about the quarter.....are you saying it’s not valid either? I can assure you the 17’s or newer versions with the twin turbos are far from anemic. You don’t run 3.1 with no torque. In the end, performance is performance, I personally don’t care how they get it. Do a little reading and let me know what you find.
Last edited by Dr. ice; 08-31-2018 at 10:30 AM.
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ByByBMW (08-31-2018)
08-31-2018, 10:33 AM
#249
Different cars, different dates, different drivers, different conditions.
Been here before; compare a stripped GT3RS with PDK with a fully loaded manual C7 and voila'.. Marketing money well spent...maybe not.
We are in 2018 and "you guys" haven't yet figure out the "game is over" sales numbers at hand!
By the same biased numbers you posted; your 2017 125K 2S (on a straight line/forget track) does not walk on anything.. yes the RE inherits a natural fractional advantage at 0 start but then same or worse numbers at (PARITY OF TRIM and TECH) unless, just as for "I am just a messenger...substantial improvement" your are using semantics to hide facts.
Finally, the only factual & court proven Porsche "underreporting" to date has been established to be fuel emissions... and to verify my claim I suggest going beyond the one dollar automotive trade magazine...
Cheers!
08-31-2018, 10:38 AM
#250
Melting Slicks
OK, we are taking the technically biased magazines route..I don't mind.
Different cars, different dates, different drivers, different conditions.
Been here before; compare a stripped GT3RS with PDK with a fully loaded manual C7 and voila'.. Marketing money well spent...maybe not.
We are in 2018 and "you guys" haven't yet figure out the "game is over" sales numbers at hand!
By the same biased numbers you posted; your 2017 125K 2S (on a straight line/forget track) does not walk on anything.. yes the RE inherits a natural fractional advantage at 0 start but then same or worse numbers at (PARITY OF TRIM and TECH) unless, just as for "I am just a messenger...substantial improvement" your are using semantics to hide facts.
Finally, the only factual & court proven Porsche "underreporting" to date has been established to be fuel emissions... and to verify my claim I suggest going beyond the one dollar automotive trade magazine...
Cheers!
Different cars, different dates, different drivers, different conditions.
Been here before; compare a stripped GT3RS with PDK with a fully loaded manual C7 and voila'.. Marketing money well spent...maybe not.
We are in 2018 and "you guys" haven't yet figure out the "game is over" sales numbers at hand!
By the same biased numbers you posted; your 2017 125K 2S (on a straight line/forget track) does not walk on anything.. yes the RE inherits a natural fractional advantage at 0 start but then same or worse numbers at (PARITY OF TRIM and TECH) unless, just as for "I am just a messenger...substantial improvement" your are using semantics to hide facts.
Finally, the only factual & court proven Porsche "underreporting" to date has been established to be fuel emissions... and to verify my claim I suggest going beyond the one dollar automotive trade magazine...
Cheers!
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ByByBMW (08-31-2018),
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08-31-2018, 11:13 AM
#251
For starters..
1. Showing all listed 911 auto weights as German DIN dry weights not even closely resembling real curb weights (EPA official data).
2. Showing all listed 911s power ratings as German DIN PS ratings (in excess) conveniently compared to Corvette's SAE ratings (SAE official data).
From there we can then discuss how a 3420 pounds 410 HP (SAE) 350 torque (SAE) car does 0-60 in 3.1...
Empirically of course...
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pdiddy972 (08-31-2018)
08-31-2018, 11:30 AM
#252
Melting Slicks
PARCIVAL: again, touché with the clever car enthusiast repartee!
after you looked up “repartee” then asked your colleague to explain it to u, did u not conclude it was sarcasm? Very Presidential of you!
These numbers are fun if we were to live our lives in drag and quarter miles (then, we should aim higher and be Top Fuel Dragsters)! The reality of most lives is more going around a track navigating turns and using everything we have at our disposal, not only acceleration and PDK shifting speed, but braking, grip, and handling. There, the base 911 with a starting msrp of $100k just doesn’t “wow” on lap time measures by the same driver.
Switching gears, and addressing Pdiddy and someone’s excellent commentary abt the overall c7, I was taking my Z out on a weekday (which I don’t usu do except I can’t resist it’s new) and thinking what a tour de force it is that a mass market car from GM delivers such world class numbers and driving experience (the looks, that exhaust, the handling, the torque). GM has made quite a comeback since the bankrupcy delivering C7 after C6. And carrying some of the tech advances over to the CTS line and Camaro as well. No disrespect to Porsche, the Vette brand is the up and comer to be reckoned with.
Porsche has been a leader as a mass market car owned by VW but we know Europe does it differently. It had the halo cars of the Carrera GT and 918 once upon a time. It also premium priced because it had a niche for luxury comforts and rear engine excellence. Now it faces the realities (including VW emissions debacle) and offers SUVs and sedans. The top of the 911 line is still pretty impressive, so is the Cayman GT4 to me, and the Cayenne is the best SUV I’ve driven (haven’t tried the Stelvio or Bentayaga, but it trounces the Range Rover). And people will still buy the bottom of the 911 line for “prestige.”
08-31-2018, 11:32 AM
#253
Race Director
How about the quarter.....are you saying it’s not valid either? I can assure you the 17’s or newer versions with the twin turbos are far from anemic. You don’t run 3.1 with no torque. In the end, performance is performance, I personally don’t care how they get it. Do a little reading and let me know what you find.
The basic point is they’re not as quick as their 0-60 would make them seem.
08-31-2018, 11:40 AM
#254
Drifting
Of course some people buy for prestige, but there are also individuals that buy what they feel is the best car they can afford regardless of prestige. Personally, I will buy whatever car I can afford that I like best. To me, the car I purchase has to tick a lot more boxes than pure performance. I also value quality, visibility, features, and overall feel while driving. *In my small Missouri town people talk more about new truck designs and corn prices. *If I wanted to impress people in my community I would buy a new HD Denali. No Plazas or Country Clubs where I live which I am sure is very different than where you live. Dicks are measured here by the size of your tractor or rows on your planter, not the car you drive. As previously stated I bought a new C7 when I could have easily bought a 911, so higher prestige was not my goal. I bought the 911 simply for a change of pace since I like cars and my next purchase could easily be a C8 ME. Then again, someone may view that as a prestige car as well. I would suggest you buy what you like and worry less about how others may view you. I would like to think people are valued by their actions and community involvement rather than the car they drive.*
PS it’s hard to take the I-didn’t-buy-it-to-impress-people tack when you’ve told us u own a base 911+Rolex (because we know stereotypically those people don’t care abt appearances
)... plus, people will only need look back a day to see that u tried b4 to impress us with some drivel abt some asset u own in some place I will never care to visit.*Last edited by Parcival; 08-31-2018 at 11:57 AM.
08-31-2018, 11:41 AM
#255
Melting Slicks
Folliwng the article implications, how much time is lost by a Porsche that does the quarter but starting from a 5 MPH roll? Remember it’s still benefitting from that hyper optimized 0-60 in the quarter.
The basic point is they’re not as quick as their 0-60 would make them seem.
08-31-2018, 11:46 AM
#256
Melting Slicks
Icee (sweet as sugar)- let me rephrase your marketing pitch for the 2S (née S)... you promise us the best first 11.4 sec of our lives, and guarantee us to finish a lap significantly behind similarly priced current Vettes (perhaps not to risk the paint and luxurious interior by butting bumpers) and otherwise, some vague indescribable joy of driving a slow Porsche, which is much better than any tractor. I’d like to add a memorable motto for the S for your consideration: “Bringing up the Rear.” Marketing poster attached.*
08-31-2018, 11:58 AM
#258
Melting Slicks
I got a better idea. Let's start with YOU do the work and search my posts (and rebut in kind with facts if you have them) were I debunk Porsche's mythological overengineering/underreporting by
For starters..
1. Showing all listed 911 auto weights as German DIN dry weights not even closely resembling real curb weights (EPA official data).
2. Showing all listed 911s power ratings as German DIN PS ratings (in excess) conveniently compared to Corvette's SAE ratings (SAE official data).
From there we can then discuss how a 3420 pounds 410 HP (SAE) 350 torque (SAE) car does 0-60 in 3.1...
Empirically of course...
For starters..
1. Showing all listed 911 auto weights as German DIN dry weights not even closely resembling real curb weights (EPA official data).
2. Showing all listed 911s power ratings as German DIN PS ratings (in excess) conveniently compared to Corvette's SAE ratings (SAE official data).
From there we can then discuss how a 3420 pounds 410 HP (SAE) 350 torque (SAE) car does 0-60 in 3.1...
Empirically of course...
08-31-2018, 12:03 PM
#259
Drifting
It was never my intent to hurt your feelings and for that I apologize. If you keep focused and work hard you too can have more than you currently have. It’s just important to realize it’s okay to fail as long as you continue to work hard for your dreams. It is interesting that you view 911’s or Rolexes as expensive objects when in reality they are not. Now, if you want to pick on one of my truly stupid purchases you are free to give me all the grief you wish on my $750,000 cruiser that I keep at my second home at the Lake of the Ozarks. Getting .5 miles to the gallon with $1,800 fill ups along with $3,000 in winterization and de-winterization costs annually makes most car ownership experiences look like the smarter path. Oh, and I didn’t even mention depreciation costs..... Let’s not even talk about the cost of a stupid *** Rolex.
no worries- U prove my point. Agree, Work hard, Better luck with your career choices and maybe u can afford a 250GTO and Patek one day and summer in Cannes and park your car at the Plaza Athenes when shop in Paris. Guys that consider the Rosewood on Sand Hill Rd (great watch shop there btw) their cafeteria or get their mail at the Dakota or TWC building in Manhattan would never bother with the stuff u just put in writing. Again, I’m happy you’re happy with your Carrera S, rolex (as an aside, u personally answered the question 4 me: why not sport a Porsche +Rolex?) ...now somebody really, tell me where the Effe the Ozarks r? 
Last edited by Parcival; 08-31-2018 at 12:08 PM.
08-31-2018, 12:05 PM
#260
Melting Slicks