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Well said for the most part. I would just add that the key factor for the GT4 (as well as other "trophy" GTs) to hold value is not to be driven and not to pass the 6K miles "death cross". That is an important factor that most seem to forget when they do their "spread" calculations. So yes, you buy a 125K GT4 and sell it (maybe/after a bit of a wait) for 100K (after 2yrs/2K miles) or buy a 80K GS and sell it for 45K after 2yr/20K miles.
Big difference indeed but one car was kept in the garage for waxing/flipping...the other was driven/enjoyed.
True! You need to watch the factors that influence value for sure. My point was that the "price" doesn't necessarily reflect the cost to own it for a period of time. My concern with the GS was that it 1. depreciates pretty fast anyway, and 2. the C8 won't help it. Given I have an 18 month window, the depreciation hit on a new one was just too significant in my view.
It is very possible that the bottom of the market for used Porsches may fall out once the C8 becomes available!
Unless you’re buying a Porsche with a GT/GTS badge they get hit pretty hard the first two years in depreciation. One reason is Porsche allows so many stand alone options that get lost on resale. I bet the percentage is very low on people who cross shop both brands. The GT values will not be hurt by the ME, Porsche loyalty is crazy, The base models I am not sure as I think Chevrolet will have to change the dealership experience to compete since Porsche is a luxury brand and experience.
It is very possible that the bottom of the market for used Porsches may fall out once the C8 becomes available!
Considering a large portion of Corvettes are bought by previous Corvette owners, I'd be more worried as a Corvette owner than other brands... assuming the price is comparable for the C8 to the C7. Besides, the Porsche GT cars are such low production cars it's more a supply/demand thing. GM always has a ton of supply (even if there is a lot of demand too). It's not like someone who wants a Corvette can't get one but that, is in fact, the case for Porsche GT products. That supply/demand ratio is the reason GT cars hold value and more available cars like the C7 drop faster.
Considering a large portion of Corvettes are bought by previous Corvette owners, I'd be more worried as a Corvette owner than other brands... assuming the price is comparable for the C8 to the C7. Besides, the Porsche GT cars are such low production cars it's more a supply/demand thing. GM always has a ton of supply (even if there is a lot of demand too). It's not like someone who wants a Corvette can't get one but that, is in fact, the case for Porsche GT products. That supply/demand ratio is the reason GT cars hold value and more available cars like the C7 drop faster.
I just left the Porsche dealer to put my name on the new GT4 list. Wow, what a pain in the A and I have purchased 4 P cars from this dealer. If the ME is a home run which I think it could be there will be people scrambling trying to get a car. Since the volume is so large demand will level out. Then people will want the next Z version of the ME and the craziness will start all over again, O yes I will be on that list too.
I never thought in 2018 we would have so many high powered sports cars to choose from it’s incredible I just wish I had more disposable income.
I don't know...talking to analysts and OEM's the supply/demand "thing" has always struck me as a marketing ploy... model such and such ONLY x amount...already sold out.. (yeah right...)
Ferrari has played that for a while until they went public and then it became evident that faced with growing competition in the sector they REALLY wanted to sell as many cars as possible because 6000 units a year barely kept the lights on..... I was fed the background check..BS until I figure out you can walk into a Ferrari dealership today and they offer you the same 72 months plan available for the Corvette...
I don't know...talking to analysts and OEM's the supply/demand "thing" has always struck me as a marketing ploy... model such and such ONLY x amount...already sold out.. (yeah right...)
Ferrari has played that for a while until they went public and then it became evident that faced with growing competition in the sector they REALLY wanted to sell as many cars as possible because 6000 units a year barely kept the lights on..... I was fed the background check..BS until I figure out you can walk into a Ferrari dealership today and they offer you the same 72 months plan available for the Corvette...
Maybe it's a marketing ploy sometimes but not always. In the case of the GT4, it did sell out. Immediately. My dealer got 3 and had more than 10 deposits for one on their list. It was common for someone who actually got a car to sell it the same day to the next guy on the list for a big profit (I've heard of guys flipping for a $25,000 profit within hours). This is not the case with every car but I would bet all of the new 2019 GT4 allocations are already spoken for. That ensures the prices stay high because people are willing to pay at or above MSRP years later to get one. If the manufacturer will just build more cars, the supply/demand issue is temporary and will settle but sometimes the supply is just truly limited to WAY below market demand.
The new C8 will have demand way in excess of supply in year 1. By year 4, it will have cars sitting on lots if it's anything like the C7. Smart people wait for a year or two. Guys like me are too impatient and will pay full MSRP in year one because they can't wait another 12 months
Well said for the most part. I would just add that the key factor for the GT4 (as well as other "trophy" GTs) to hold value is not to be driven and not to pass the 6K miles "death cross". That is an important factor that most seem to forget when they do their "spread" calculations. So yes, you buy a 125K GT4 and sell it (maybe/after a bit of a wait) for 100K (after 2yrs/2K miles) or buy a 80K GS and sell it for 45K after 2yr/20K miles.
Big difference indeed but one car was kept in the garage for waxing/flipping...the other was driven/enjoyed.
My wife will be pissed, but I'll sell you my GT4 for 100K. We track and autocross both the GT4 and our Z06 and we have ~12,000 miles on the GT4. I paid 92k for it new (not 125k). It is a rock solid track and autocross car. Actually, I probably wouldn't sell it even for a profit because it is such a nice car to push hard.
Here is a pic of us driving it on the track last weekend....
My wife will be pissed, but I'll sell you my GT4 for 100K. We track and autocross both the GT4 and our Z06 and we have ~12,000 miles on the GT4. I paid 92k for it new (not 125k). It is a rock solid track and autocross car. Actually, I probably wouldn't sell it even for a profit because it is such a nice car to push hard.
Here is a pic of us driving it on the track last weekend....
Maybe it's a marketing ploy sometimes but not always. In the case of the GT4, it did sell out. Immediately. My dealer got 3 and had more than 10 deposits for one on their list. It was common for someone who actually got a car to sell it the same day to the next guy on the list for a big profit (I've heard of guys flipping for a $25,000 profit within hours). This is not the case with every car but I would bet all of the new 2019 GT4 allocations are already spoken for. That ensures the prices stay high because people are willing to pay at or above MSRP years later to get one. If the manufacturer will just build more cars, the supply/demand issue is temporary and will settle but sometimes the supply is just truly limited to WAY below market demand.
The new C8 will have demand way in excess of supply in year 1. By year 4, it will have cars sitting on lots if it's anything like the C7. Smart people wait for a year or two. Guys like me are too impatient and will pay full MSRP in year one because they can't wait another 12 months
Maybe we are saying the same thing differently or maybe you are unwittingly confirming my take on the marketing ploy. A manufacturer aptly offering a very limited run for very limited demand and turning it around presenting it as a product in high demand when in reality it is not.Taken to the extreme but to illustrate the point: build one sell one and call it “SOLD OUT!!”…I think your illustration of a brand new GT4 resold on the spot for + 25K (that is where I got the 125K) is true but illustrates a very small niche market among car speculators which flourish in good times but fizzles as well (see current inventory and time on lot). At the end of the day I am not sure if this is a win for Porsche’s image with real brand enthusiasts, especially when they are presented with the sales tax on these limited runs.. Business model nonetheless. Good for them and good luck..As for the Corvette ME..there is always the economic season pendulum.. let’s cross fingers the economy doesn’t bust again..but hopefully with the new plant and sales model in place I think Corvette is figuring out the build boom/bust cycles and being a first, won’t flood the market as suggested..I rather see them target the current 400-500/mo Porsche MEs run rate and taking it from there.Like you and others indicated, it is a good time for all flavors.
Maybe it's a marketing ploy sometimes but not always. In the case of the GT4, it did sell out. Immediately. My dealer got 3 and had more than 10 deposits for one on their list. It was common for someone who actually got a car to sell it the same day to the next guy on the list for a big profit (I've heard of guys flipping for a $25,000 profit within hours). This is not the case with every car but I would bet all of the new 2019 GT4 allocations are already spoken for. That ensures the prices stay high because people are willing to pay at or above MSRP years later to get one. If the manufacturer will just build more cars, the supply/demand issue is temporary and will settle but sometimes the supply is just truly limited to WAY below market demand.
The new C8 will have demand way in excess of supply in year 1. By year 4, it will have cars sitting on lots if it's anything like the C7. Smart people wait for a year or two. Guys like me are too impatient and will pay full MSRP in year one because they can't wait another 12 months
It's great you are getting one. It would be my next car if not for all the BS.
I feel that Porsche is making a poor business decision. Seems good for the dealers, but not for them. Certainly not good for enthusiasts. The reality is all the P- cars with high resale are garage queens. You can argue you didn't lose money, but my $100k made me 20% per year in the market, and I didn't lose storage space, sales tax, insurance, and registration.
PORSCHES have an icon appeal but their pricing structure is a joke.
im glad people pay what they do but ill pass..
its not that we dont have the money its just why get ripped off?
is it because they have the allure of a german european brand?
i dont know....
Ive driven them back to back with the jaguar f type and then a corvette and im happy to report i prefer corvettes..
i dont need a blow job with percieved quality without the 300k mile validation process gm instills in its models..
i prefer my cars to serve me and not the other way around...
out of warranty repairs are brutal and just dont make sense..
if you just own during the warranty process then i guess it doesnt matter but i tend to keep my cars longer..
the rear engine turn of the porsche was fun...and a quality i did admire.
i have a feeling the rear mid engine corvette with its 300k mile validation process will based off the rear mid engine placement will enjoy a similiar initial turn in response..
should be fun when there is a high hp, high tq LT1 derived 500hp motor that weighs about the same as the porsche powerplants...
the 992 porsche is already being shown in spy shots without camo to hold their base which i guess makes sense..
the battle between porsche and corvette continues...in a good way.
My brother bought a Porsche Boxster S and I kept it for it for him until it was shipped overseas. He asked me to get the oil, plugs and filters changed, along with a new serpentine belt. I went to the dealer and they suggested that I leave it with them and they would "take care of it" for me. I left and went to a private mechanic who specializes in Porsche's. His price for the oil change, $500, replace the serpentine belt, $500, replace the plugs, $500. It seemed that anything he did would cost $500. I was shocked at the cost of ownership of this beautiful little car.
Driving the Porsche was a true delight, it handled so nicely and took every turn flat. The car gave you a false sense of security and encouraged faster driving. Before long I was accelerating in turns, these turns would make most cars slow down. I liked the handling but it was under-powered in my opinion.
I have two Corvettes, my first is a 1968 427 Four speed convertible with 12.25-1 compression and a very large double pumper working away on top. My horsepower was way over the Porsche Boxster's engine and my acceleration in the Corvette would walk away from that little six cylinder any time of the day. I love the styling of the C3 Corvettes, when sitting in my C3 you can see and feel the coke bottle design, it is comfortable and drives beautifully albeit not handling quite as well as the Porsche.
I would really like to see GM give up the "mid-engine" idea and focus on a reliable "four wheel drive" system. Four wheel drive in a balanced car like the C7's would make for a very interesting upgrade and bring the Corvette back to the front for a long time. Four wheel drive "full time" would make the new Corvette very attractive to me and possibly to others and would not require a totally new Body style to accommodate it. Getting all the power that the current Corvettes make to the ground is and has always been a issue with Corvettes. My 1968 C3 will burn the tires all the way to the 1/8th mile mark at the quarter mile.
Making power is one thing, getting it to the ground is a whole different matter. This is one problem a lot of Corvettes have.
P.S. I have tremendous respect for Porsche but I will continue to buy and drive American Performance cars!
Instead of a M/E Corvette? GM and mid engine have sort of an oil and water ring to it for me. Why not buy from a Company who has been doing M/E for decades now. No matter how pretty the Corvette M/E might be, its last cousin was a Fiero, think about it.
Yeah, you've got a good point about the Fiero... it's just too bad that Chevy kept the design team at the ready since the 80's, champing at the bit to take point on the always anticipated but never (until now) built Corvette ME.
Okay, all kidding aside, to answer your question, as many others most likely have said (nope, not going to read through all the posts in a long thread like this...) because it's affordable, and will likely perform as well or better than most Porsches. I like the idea of buying American, and I've loved both Corvettes that I've owned, so I don't want nor need to own a Porsche. On top of that, my Corvette sounds better!
Oh yeah, more about the Fiero, it was actually a pretty decent car for the time, which was a time when even our beloved Corvettes didn't have much power. With the 6 banger and weighing under 2800 lbs, it was a very good performing small sports car. It was the first car I bought on my own when I was a young punk, and I drove the hell out of it, and it was reliable. So maybe Chevy could learn a thing or two from their now defunct Pontiac cousins when it comes to the Fiero.
Yeah, you've got a good point about the Fiero... it's just too bad that Chevy kept the design team at the ready since the 80's, champing at the bit to take point on the always anticipated but never (until now) built Corvette ME.
Okay, all kidding aside, to answer your question, as many others most likely have said (nope, not going to read through all the posts in a long thread like this...) because it's affordable, and will likely perform as well or better than most Porsches. I like the idea of buying American, and I've loved both Corvettes that I've owned, so I don't want nor need to own a Porsche. On top of that, my Corvette sounds better!
You sir are correct.
Oh yeah, more about the Fiero, it was actually a pretty decent car for the time, which was a time when even our beloved Corvettes didn't have much power. With the 6 banger and weighing under 2800 lbs, it was a very good performing small sports car. It was the first car I bought on my own when I was a young punk, and I drove the hell out of it, and it was reliable. So maybe Chevy could learn a thing or two from their now defunct Pontiac cousins when it comes to the Fiero.
It really gets old how uninformed some can be about the true history of how and why some car models disappear, in this case the Pontiac Fiero in the middle of its 1988 run. So here is what happened.
“By 1988 the Fiero’s GT and Formula models finally had the world class sports car suspension the Fiero should have had for 1984. Lotus had helped Pontiac revamp and tune the suspension. So by 1988 the Fiero GT and Formula with their standard 2.8 liter V6 (which had dropped to 135 horsepower) and a Lotus tuned suspension finally embodied the essence of a true sports car. Sales had dropped by 1988, and GM decided to call it quits.
This alone makes the Fiero saga a very sad story. But this just isn’t a story about a car finally becoming what it should have been and then getting the plug pulled. Unfortunately that’s only part of the story. When the 1988 Fiero was canceled in the middle of its model year, Pontiac was in the final stages of development of the new 1989 Pontiac Fiero which was to have even sleeker exotic sports car looks and a new high-output 200 horsepower DOHC (Dual Overhead Cam) Quad4 (4-cylinder) engine. The 1989 Corvette with its Tuned-Port Injected (TPI) 5.7 liter V8 produced 240-245 horsepower. This would have been 40 to 45 horsepower more than the 1989 Fiero on the surface. However scratching below the surface will have you realizing real quick the 1989 Corvette had a curb weight of just over 3,200 lbs versus the 1989 Fiero’s estimated 2,800 lbs. The 400-lb difference would have closed the performance gap allowing the Quad4 Fiero the ability to give the Corvette a run for the money. And this would have been with a Fiero with a base price, at least half of the Corvette’s $31,545. There’s no doubt the 1989 Fiero would have been nipping at the Corvette’s heals. And add to that the 1989 Fiero was going to have even more improvements to 1988 Lotus tuned suspension including P225-50VR16 performance tires (versus the 1988 Fiero GT and Formula’s P215-60-R15 in the rear and P205-60-R15 in front). Had the 1989 Fiero made it to production, most surely the Fiero today would be looked at in a different light. With the cancellation at the last minute of the almost production ready 1989 Fiero, the Fiero was robbed of its legacy of becoming a true exotic mid-engined 2-seat sports car. And who knows the internal-GM competition may have forced Chevrolet to improve its Corvette. Unfortunately we’ll never know what could have been.”
EDIT: And yes I owned a 1988 Fiero GT and I loved it. Not so much my co-worker who only kept her 1984 about a year. She feared the early fire issue would get her.
I remember test driving one for a girlfriend at the time. The fiero was an awesome car to drive in its day.
was it perfect? Of course not but considering its price...it was a fun sports car...
i too was saddened by the cancellation of the priduct just after they sorted out the suspension..and no longer a chevette parts bin job ..but the damage was done to its image and gm cancelled the vehicle.
back then life cycles of 2 doors much less 2 seaters was very short. The same thing is happening to four door sedans these days..
if i remember correctly gm sold 100k fieros the first year...and more would have been sold if it had power steering that first year...lots of ladies who wanted them Couldn't turn the wheel easy enough...that was a first year snafu if i remember correctly....plus its engine was the iron duke...and the v6 had a maf that couldnt accomodate performance mods easily...
for those that modded cars the v6 was a tough engine to modify...that was still in the early days of tighter emissions.
If I'm not mistaken, didn't GM basically build the Fiero to be the cheapest car possible which was using cheap parts to save on costs? And how any one can compare a 1980's Fiero to today's cars kind of boggles my mind.. GM was very conservative back then... we didn't have 650-755 HP Vettes running around back then not to mention the technology and engineering that goes into these new Corvettes today!
As I said in a few statements, yes I'm sure the first year mid engine C8 will have its issues. The first year new cars usually do. By the 2nd or 3rd year GM will have any minor or not so minor issues ironed out.
Like the Z06 with its over heating issues on the race track, by 2017 I believe they fixed that problem I've been told. I've red the C8 may have a six cylinder engine kicking out over 600 HP.
Like the Lambo's that to this very day have been known to catch fire in the engine bay, it might make sense to go with a smaller engine that won't over heat and catch fire. Only time will tell.
09-01-2018, 01:05 PM
