I'm Sure It's Going to be Beautiful BUT!! How Can I Trust GM When I Read This??
09-13-2018, 07:05 PM
#21
Race Director
The sad part is that the A8 is NOT what it should be even now, AND it's integration with AFM was SORELY lacking.
This kind of crap is what gets GM in trouble.
The upside is that C7 ZR1 A8 owners won't have problems (hopefully) since there's no AFM....
This kind of crap is what gets GM in trouble.
The upside is that C7 ZR1 A8 owners won't have problems (hopefully) since there's no AFM....
Last edited by jimmyb; 09-13-2018 at 07:07 PM.
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C5Driver (09-14-2018)
09-13-2018, 07:13 PM
#22
Burning Brakes
To be fai the GM products I have had were years late in the run, 88 Fiero gt, 91 Formula, 93 Grand Prix GPX, never had a bit of issue with any of those. The one first year GM I had was the Equinox and it had an enginr replace, but the company was behind it. The brand I have had most issues with was ford, and took a long while to get done too. F150 needed a CD changer relaced it took a week and a half. Had a Taurus as a company car, hit a piece of truck tire on the freeway and it hit part of the water tank for the winshield wipers, they had the car for three weeks.
BTW, still have the OLDS 442? Loved that car as a kid!
PC
BTW, still have the OLDS 442? Loved that car as a kid!
PC
09-13-2018, 07:57 PM
#24
Melting Slicks
REALITY CHECK TIME! I mean come on, The A8 has been out almost FIVE YEARS and GM still can't get this transmission right or make it right to the people that purchased these turds? How can GM expect me to purchase an all-new C8 when they can't get a transmission to behave properly after 5 years? Embarrassing and ridiculous.
I have lost all confidence in GM after reading this. All we get are lies, and smoke and mirrors from the chief engineer.
Granted nothing is perfect but at least have some integrity as a Company and right your wrongs, I honestly don't think I can buy a C8 as much as I would like one because of this "careless" attitude by GM on these issues.
.https://www.corvetteforum.com/forums...-lucky-me.html
I have lost all confidence in GM after reading this. All we get are lies, and smoke and mirrors from the chief engineer.
Granted nothing is perfect but at least have some integrity as a Company and right your wrongs, I honestly don't think I can buy a C8 as much as I would like one because of this "careless" attitude by GM on these issues.
.https://www.corvetteforum.com/forums...-lucky-me.html
By going with a DCT from another manufacturer and not using an in-house POS transmission on a small budget. The A8 is not a great trans but Tadge wanted a DCT and the C7 to be an ME. I read it was packaging and lack of funds that made them go with the A8. Now we are stuck with the dopey A8 in the C7 Corvette.
We know GM is a different company today than it was before the bankruptcy. It’s now run by engineers from the CEO down. The budget for this Corvette ME could be the most money ever given to produce a new Corvette. Bob Lutz said Tadges team wanted 850 Million to develop the C7, in the end, they only got around 240 Million. Just think what the Corvette team could build if they got close to the numbers they requested to build the C8.
I think the C8 is going to be a special car, it will be built by engineers with leadership coming from a similar background, In the past, this was not the case, I can’t wait for the reveal.
Last edited by fasttoys; 09-14-2018 at 01:23 AM.
09-13-2018, 09:34 PM
#25
Le Mans Master
I'm Sure It's Going to be Beautiful BUT!! How Can I Trust:
By going with a DCT from another manufacturer and not using an in house POS transmission on a small budget. The A8 is not a great trans but Tadge wanted a DCT and the C7 to be an ME. I read it was packaging and lack of funds that made them go with the A8. Now we are stuck with the dopey A8 in the C7 Corvette.
We know GM is a different company today after the bankruptcy. It’s now run by engineers from the CEO, Leadershipand down. The budget for this Corvette ME could be the most money ever given to produce a new Corvette. Bob Lutz said Tadges team wanted 850 Million to develope the C7, in the end only got around 240 Million. Just think what Tadge got close to the numbers he wanted for the C8.
I think the C8 is going to be special car, it will be built by engineers with leadership coming from a similar backgrounds, In the past this was not the case, can’t wait for the reveal.
Back on topic, it'll probably be fine.
09-13-2018, 09:57 PM
#26
Le Mans Master
Check the Lemon Laws in your state. In most states, if the car can't be repaired after a given number of attempts and/or a given period of time, the manufacturer has to buy it back.
09-13-2018, 10:08 PM
#27
Race Director
A8 is not junk.
A8 fluid has been changed it is now low viscosity. That was the problem. Well known fact now... so if you're experiencing 8/8 issues go to your dealer tell them they will flush it and then swap the torque converter that doesn't fix it with the new fluid and you will have everything working perfectly just had it done on my Sierra with the 8-speed drives better than new and has 25,000 miles on it
A8 fluid has been changed it is now low viscosity. That was the problem. Well known fact now... so if you're experiencing 8/8 issues go to your dealer tell them they will flush it and then swap the torque converter that doesn't fix it with the new fluid and you will have everything working perfectly just had it done on my Sierra with the 8-speed drives better than new and has 25,000 miles on it
09-13-2018, 10:23 PM
#28
Burning Brakes
As an engineer, you don't want a bunch of engineers on the same project... You generally end up with something engineered well on paper but is just okay. The thing that comes to my mind is from my job. Let's say a mix design. It is really easy to test in the lab. But I said right away, you can't do it that way in the field. And that's what tends to happen. It is awesome but the practicality and serviceability are terrible because it is supposed to be the best. You need the guys who work on the damn things to check what you're doing and see the failure points. Not trying to say you're wrong, but engineers tend to over-engineer things... Just look at Juicero, that could happen again easily...
Back on topic, it'll probably be fine.
Back on topic, it'll probably be fine.
And as evolved as the '19 manual Z06 I just bought is from the original '15 Z06, I am still aware that there are a few issues that probably will need to be addressed. On the other hand, at this point in its development, given the incredible performance stats of this car compared to other cars costing two times or three times the price I paid less than MSRP - I view this as a great deal. The A8 was developed inhouse on a low budget and combined with what I think was an abysmal idea called AFM, and was an engineering fail. If you think about what AFM is, it is hard to imagine it is a good thing for an engine - and it certainly was a marriage from hell with the A8 - no worries about AFM crap with the manual. What a surprise the ZR1 does not have AFM, or that many A8 owners have figured out they should run a Range device. I always thought a "triple flush" wa some kind of poker hand before I read about it in the massive A8 problems thread...
And FastToys is right in the sense that GM had a LOT more budget for the ME. But given that this is the first ME Corvette, first with a twin turbo DOHC (in the performance versions), first use of that power configuration with a DCT, they will need every dollar of that roll-out budget. And more...as the inevitable issues arise and hopefully get addressed. I will watch with interest how that all develops. Perhaps by year 3 of the new ME Z06, I will begin consideration of it, to replace the '19.
My Dad had an expression to wit: "you can always tell who the pioneers were, they were the folks with all the arrow holes in their back."
09-13-2018, 11:57 PM
#29
I'm Sure It's Going to be Beautiful BUT!! How Can I Trust:
By going with a DCT from another manufacturer and not using an in house POS transmission on a small budget. The A8 is not a great trans but Tadge wanted a DCT and the C7 to be an ME. I read it was packaging and lack of funds that made them go with the A8. Now we are stuck with the dopey A8 in the C7 Corvette.
We know GM is a different company today than it was before the bankruptcy. It’s now run by engineers from the CEO down. The budget for this Corvette ME could be the most money ever given to produce a new Corvette. Bob Lutz said Tadges team wanted 850 Million to develope the C7, in the end they only got around 240 Million. Just think what the Corvette team could build if they got close to the numbers they requested to build the C8.
I think the C8 is going to be special car, it will be built by engineers with leadership coming from a similar backgrounds, In the past this was not the case, can’t wait for the reveal.
Last edited by C5Driver; 09-13-2018 at 11:59 PM.
09-14-2018, 12:21 AM
#30
Melting Slicks
Last edited by fasttoys; 09-14-2018 at 02:37 AM.
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-vet (09-17-2018)
09-14-2018, 12:36 AM
#31
Melting Slicks
As an engineer, you don't want a bunch of engineers on the same project... You generally end up with something engineered well on paper but is just okay. The thing that comes to my mind is from my job. Let's say a mix design. It is really easy to test in the lab. But I said right away, you can't do it that way in the field. And that's what tends to happen. It is awesome but the practicality and serviceability are terrible because it is supposed to be the best. You need the guys who work on the damn things to check what you're doing and see the failure points. Not trying to say you're wrong, but engineers tend to over-engineer things... Just look at Juicero, that could happen again easily...
Back on topic, it'll probably be fine.
Back on topic, it'll probably be fine.
The article below can do a better job of making my point. Here is a section from the article that explains what I was trying to say about the new leadership at GM. FYI I am a big BMW, Audi, Ferrari and VW guy so no horse in the race. I finally feel GM has the right people in charge which have been a lingering problem for years.
Engineers are by nature problem-solvers. They do not shy from difficulty. They derive their energy from immersing themselves in problems as a means of figuring things out. [As children they are fond of taking things apart, and as their parents come to know without knowing how to reassemble them.] Most importantly, engineers are pragmatists. They like to try this, try that as a means of finding solutions.
There are plenty of knocks against engineers. That is, they care more about things than people. Perhaps that is true for engineers “on the bench,” but seldom applies to engineers who rise to leadership positions. They have learned how to translate their passion for making things work by engaging the interests of their people. How? By letting them figure things out for themselves.
Engineers engage their people through a passion for the work. In a previous New York Times interview (before she became CEO), Barra talked about products she likes to drive, notably the Cadillac CTS and Corvette. But she also has what Detroit calls a“gearhead” mindset. She and her husband have owned a number of Camaros and she’s on the lookout for “a ’67 or ’69 … convertible. Affinity for the product becomes the great leveler between executive and employee; both share a desire to do what’s right for the product and its customers.
Engineers also make good innovators. The outcome of solving problems is learning how to avoid them in the future so engineers are always chewing the fat over “isn’t there a better way” approaches. As novelist James Mitchener put it, “Scientists dream about doing great things. Engineers do them.” In other words, engineers make things happen.
Mary Barra: The Right Engineer At The Right Time
Article:
https://www.forbes.com/sites/johnbal.../#4b2f930c3ced
Last edited by fasttoys; 09-14-2018 at 02:47 AM.
09-14-2018, 01:02 AM
#32
Melting Slicks
Bingo. And that is why, as I said before, I only buy Corvettes late in their run. I am happy to let the first adapters be the beta testers. I had a 2010 C6 Z06, and like another poster, I still invested in a quality set of aftermarket heads because too many folks I knew had blown engines from LS7 valve drops.
And as evolved as the '19 manual Z06 I just bought is from the original '15 Z06, I am still aware that there are a few issues that probably will need to be addressed. On the other hand, at this point in its development, given the incredible performance stats of this car compared to other cars costing two times or three times the price I paid less than MSRP - I view this as a great deal. The A8 was developed inhouse on a low budget and combined with what I think was an abysmal idea called AFM, and was an engineering fail. If you think about what AFM is, it is hard to imagine it is a good thing for an engine - and it certainly was a marriage from hell with the A8 - no worries about AFM crap with the manual. What a surprise the ZR1 does not have AFM, or that many A8 owners have figured out they should run a Range device. I always thought a "triple flush" wa some kind of poker hand before I read about it in the massive A8 problems thread...
And FastToys is right in the sense that GM had a LOT more budget for the ME. But given that this is the first ME Corvette, first with a twin turbo DOHC (in the performance versions), first use of that power configuration with a DCT, they will need every dollar of that roll-out budget. And more...as the inevitable issues arise and hopefully get addressed. I will watch with interest how that all develops. Perhaps by year 3 of the new ME Z06, I will begin consideration of it, to replace the '19.
My Dad had an expression to wit: "you can always tell who the pioneers were, they were the folks with all the arrow holes in their back."
And as evolved as the '19 manual Z06 I just bought is from the original '15 Z06, I am still aware that there are a few issues that probably will need to be addressed. On the other hand, at this point in its development, given the incredible performance stats of this car compared to other cars costing two times or three times the price I paid less than MSRP - I view this as a great deal. The A8 was developed inhouse on a low budget and combined with what I think was an abysmal idea called AFM, and was an engineering fail. If you think about what AFM is, it is hard to imagine it is a good thing for an engine - and it certainly was a marriage from hell with the A8 - no worries about AFM crap with the manual. What a surprise the ZR1 does not have AFM, or that many A8 owners have figured out they should run a Range device. I always thought a "triple flush" wa some kind of poker hand before I read about it in the massive A8 problems thread...
And FastToys is right in the sense that GM had a LOT more budget for the ME. But given that this is the first ME Corvette, first with a twin turbo DOHC (in the performance versions), first use of that power configuration with a DCT, they will need every dollar of that roll-out budget. And more...as the inevitable issues arise and hopefully get addressed. I will watch with interest how that all develops. Perhaps by year 3 of the new ME Z06, I will begin consideration of it, to replace the '19.
My Dad had an expression to wit: "you can always tell who the pioneers were, they were the folks with all the arrow holes in their back."
Last edited by fasttoys; 09-14-2018 at 02:32 AM.
09-14-2018, 10:55 AM
#33
The A8 was developed inside the company on a limited budget. If given the money at the start of development they could have gone in a different direction, you have what you have maybe a complete fix may be cost prohibited, so new trans oil is the band-aid. We know many Z06 owners had overheating issues on the track, mine ran hot as I lived in Texas, but never had the overheating problems as I did not track the car. My BMW E46 M3 had lower rod bearing failures it was a poor engine design with BMW paying for many replacements that still blew up even after the fix. The warranty was extended 6/100 and new oil 15-60 was developed but the starvation issue with new oil and replacement of the R/B never completely sorted out the problem till the next generation motor
09-14-2018, 11:24 AM
#34
Burning Brakes
So this is my reason for posting this thread. Is GM going to totally ignore issues from sloppy engeneering with the C8 as they have been doing with the C6 and C7?? Warrantys are great but what good is a warranty when GM never really fixes the issues? In the case of the A8 the warranty is worthless because they still don't have 2019 cars working properly. We can all wipe our A$$eS with GMs warranty's if GM just throws band aids at real issues and never really fixes them 100%. I fear this same old crap is going to trickle down to the C8 when problems arise and GM decides real fixes are to expensive and they start sending the Dealers there Box of Band Aids once again hoping the cars go out of warranty soon and its all in the owners laps. No No No more not me I wont do his again with GM it just takes all the fun out of the ownership experience.
And that is promising. Like all big corporations, they can be glacially slow to react to things, but it does show me that they ARE listening, and eventually reacting. So, if this trend continues, a few years after the ME Z06 version is released, I will buy a much better C8 Z, for a discounted price. And I am ok with that.
Ford is no different, which is why I sold my '17 Shelby GT350 and bought the '19 Z, my tenth Vette. Mysterious and to commonly occurring failures with the Shelby FPC motor, with no answers or explanations from Ford, were finally unacceptable to me.
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-vet (09-17-2018)
09-14-2018, 12:53 PM
#35
09-14-2018, 02:42 PM
#36
Drifting
I have driven a few A8 C7's. 2 were good, 1 was junk. When I was in the market for a C7 Z06 I wrote the A8 off due to my bad experience. Slow shifts, hesitation, some shuddering.
The new transmission in the C8 will be nothing like the A8. I am convinced the transmission will be more kin to the DCT you find in a Porsche or GTR. I love the DCT in my Porsche Macan and if they could put something similar in a Corvette, it would be a dream.
The new transmission in the C8 will be nothing like the A8. I am convinced the transmission will be more kin to the DCT you find in a Porsche or GTR. I love the DCT in my Porsche Macan and if they could put something similar in a Corvette, it would be a dream.
09-14-2018, 03:42 PM
#37
Remember its only a game changer if it runs and drives properly and when something goes wrong GM and its network of dealers can fix it properly and permanently.
Last edited by C5Driver; 09-14-2018 at 03:46 PM.
09-14-2018, 06:27 PM
#38
Le Mans Master
I get your points and I agree but GM has other people in the organization now to help balance those issues. GM is like a battleship in a lake it takes a while for them to turn things around. ( Change is not easy, admitting you have a problem is even harder which is the first step in the process) I know Ford Motor company is looking at GM now and saying O we are in bad financial shape and probably 3 years behind GM transformation.
The article below can do a better job of making my point. Here is a section from the article that explains what I was trying to say about the new leadership at GM. FYI I am a big BMW, Audi, Ferrari and VW guy so no horse in the race. I finally feel GM has the right people in charge which have been a lingering problem for years.
Engineers are by nature problem-solvers. They do not shy from difficulty. They derive their energy from immersing themselves in problems as a means of figuring things out. [As children they are fond of taking things apart, and as their parents come to know without knowing how to reassemble them.] Most importantly, engineers are pragmatists. They like to try this, try that as a means of finding solutions.
There are plenty of knocks against engineers. That is, they care more about things than people. Perhaps that is true for engineers “on the bench,” but seldom applies to engineers who rise to leadership positions. They have learned how to translate their passion for making things work by engaging the interests of their people. How? By letting them figure things out for themselves.
Engineers engage their people through a passion for the work. In a previous New York Times interview (before she became CEO), Barra talked about products she likes to drive, notably the Cadillac CTS and Corvette. But she also has what Detroit calls a“gearhead” mindset. She and her husband have owned a number of Camaros and she’s on the lookout for “a ’67 or ’69 … convertible. Affinity for the product becomes the great leveler between executive and employee; both share a desire to do what’s right for the product and its customers.
Engineers also make good innovators. The outcome of solving problems is learning how to avoid them in the future so engineers are always chewing the fat over “isn’t there a better way” approaches. As novelist James Mitchener put it, “Scientists dream about doing great things. Engineers do them.” In other words, engineers make things happen.
Mary Barra: The Right Engineer At The Right Time
Article:
https://www.forbes.com/sites/johnbal.../#4b2f930c3ced
For the most part every manufacturer has problems. It's just a matter of how many units you move and how much you hear about them. My buddy loves his highlander, said he's heard less problems about them than he has the chevy trailblazers and labels them as a lemon. Gm sold more 04 trailblazers than the entire production of Highlanders for the 7 years th trailblazer was on the market. They were making 300k of them a year. Of course you're going to hear about more problems. If you do the math, the problem per unit produced across all manufacturers generally falls around 1 in 130 or so. Too much varies. That was the math I arrived at a few years ago. I believe it is still accurate.
These are just personal experiences. They are exceptions not the trend for all I know.
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fasttoys (09-14-2018)
09-14-2018, 07:00 PM
#39
Melting Slicks
So this is my reason for posting this thread. Is GM going to totally ignore issues from sloppy engeneering with the C8 as they have been doing with the C6 and C7?? Warrantys are great but what good is a warranty when GM never really fixes the issues? In the case of the A8 the warranty is worthless because they still don't have 2019 cars working properly. We can all wipe our A$$eS with GMs warranty's if GM just throws band aids at real issues and never really fixes them 100%. I fear this same old crap is going to trickle down to the C8 when problems arise and GM decides real fixes are to expensive and they start sending the Dealers there Box of Band Aids once again hoping the cars go out of warranty soon and its all in the owners laps. No No No more not me I wont do his again with GM it just takes all the fun out of the ownership experience.
I did not realize you don't have a C7 with an A8 that is having these problems. Why be bothered by it trust me problems happen with all manufacturers some worse than others. Whatever I do in life even buying a car I have an exit plan in place just in case. It happened with BMW & the M3's, Porsche with the RMS leaking (Rear Main Seal) and many other manufacturers. Remember the C7 was built on a very limited budget coming out of bankruptcy. I know when I buy a car and if there are problems I can't get resolved, I move on. My 1980 L82 Corvette was such a POS, I said never again and I would have nightmares that I traded in my Porsche & bought it back. Then fast forward & I purchased a 2003 C5 Z06 kept that car for 17 months & then purchase a C7 z51 & C7 Z06. We can all speculate about the new ME and future problems that could happen but it's not even out yet. For anyone not happy with their car because it's having to many problems, sell it and move on, chalk it up as a life lesson learned. Life is to short to put up with BS and be bothered with all the drama.
GM has a lot of happy C7 Corvette customers with a few that are not so happy when that trend reverses Corvette will have a big problem on their hands.
Last edited by fasttoys; 09-15-2018 at 10:26 AM.
