What is the expected weight for the C8?
10-03-2018, 04:06 PM
#41
Safety Car
All being equal, IE: weight, power and same size wheels and tires, the rear engine car will launch faster, the front engine car will stop in a shorter distance and will go faster in a constant radius circle at a constant speed. The ME car will perform better where a variety of conditions prevail. The rear engine car will get the shortest life on it's tires, both back and front, next the ME car and the FE car's tires will last the longest. C7s out brake all other street sports cars no matter the purchase price.
Last edited by Shaka; 10-03-2018 at 04:08 PM.
10-03-2018, 04:43 PM
#42
All being equal, IE: weight, power and same size wheels and tires, the rear engine car will launch faster, the front engine car will stop in a shorter distance and will go faster in a constant radius circle at a constant speed. The ME car will perform better where a variety of conditions prevail. The rear engine car will get the shortest life on it's tires, both back and front, next the ME car and the FE car's tires will last the longest. C7s out brake all other street sports cars no matter the purchase price.
On a car that has a 50/50 weight distribution, it makes little to no difference. You'd ideally want fairly equal brake bias because the front end and rear end can do about the same amount of work. However, you will want the front brake rotors to be slightly larger than the rear because as you brake, the dynamic forces will transfer weight to the front of the car, therefore giving the front a larger brake bias will help slow the car down quicker.
Once you switch that weight bias by putting the engine behind the driver's seat, and have say, a 40F/60R weight bias, then the same huge front brake rotors and calipers will end up locking the front up quicker because there's less weight up front. An ideal engineered system with weight bias in the rear like a Porsche 911 or a rear mount mid engine cars like Ferrari's will have relatively smaller rotors up front, not massive like the C7 (or for that matter, most front mid engine mount, 50/50 weight cars. i.e. BMWs) because you don't need it.
The C7 out-brake others on the market not because of the front mid engine format, but because it's got MASSIVE grip advantage and relative light weight. The 285 front on the wide body cars and the 245 on the narrow body cars are wider than most rear tire sizes on the majority of cars on market, and the low center of gravity, relative stiff springs, and the stock Michelins gave it an inherent mechanical advantage.
https://www.motortrend.com/news/20-b...nces-recorded/
Two of the top 5 are mid rear and rear engine cars.
10-03-2018, 04:43 PM
#43
Le Mans Master
Porsche 911s brake really well due to the position of the engine/transaxle.
The ME car will perform better where a variety of conditions prevail.
The rear engine car will get the shortest life on it's tires, both back and front,
Drivers can drive in such a way that their tires last a long time, or drive in such a way that the rears are gone first, or drive in such a way the fronts are gone first, and in some circumstances; drive in such a way that the left side tires are gone before the right side tires (MSR Cresson for example). THe driver has way more control ver the wear rate of the tires than almost anything else.
next the ME car and the FE car's tires will last the longest. C7s out brake all other street sports cars no matter the purchase price.
10-03-2018, 05:05 PM
#44
Drifting
Err, no. You see the tires on the rear are larger than the ones on the front. Thus the rear wheels need to be doing more of the braking than the fronts. Therefore to get best braking you want the weight on the rear wheels, while decelerating, to be proportional the weight on the front wheels. So if you have 245 F and 305R, you want 55% of the weight on the rear tires while braking at maximum deceleration. This means you have to start with more than 55% on the rear wheels with no forces accelerating the platform.
Porsche 911s brake really well due to the position of the engine/transaxle.
Those conditions being: a) you want to accelerate, b) you want to decelerate, or c) you want to corner. The FE car is optimal for driving at constant velocity on a straight level road.
I see no justification for such a statement. When the load carried by each tire is proportional to the sectionsidth of the tire, wear is equalized across all 4 tires.
Drivers can drive in such a way that their tires last a long time, or drive in such a way that the rears are gone first, or drive in such a way the fronts are gone first, and in some circumstances; drive in such a way that the left side tires are gone before the right side tires (MSR Cresson for example). THe driver has way more control ver the wear rate of the tires than almost anything else.
Just wait until you see how the C8 brakes.
Porsche 911s brake really well due to the position of the engine/transaxle.
Those conditions being: a) you want to accelerate, b) you want to decelerate, or c) you want to corner. The FE car is optimal for driving at constant velocity on a straight level road.
I see no justification for such a statement. When the load carried by each tire is proportional to the sectionsidth of the tire, wear is equalized across all 4 tires.
Drivers can drive in such a way that their tires last a long time, or drive in such a way that the rears are gone first, or drive in such a way the fronts are gone first, and in some circumstances; drive in such a way that the left side tires are gone before the right side tires (MSR Cresson for example). THe driver has way more control ver the wear rate of the tires than almost anything else.
Just wait until you see how the C8 brakes.
Why can you always tell who is an engineer or waxer, and who is a track rat?
Can never say a rear engine car brakes better without knowing the CG height during threshold braking with hot tires.
Many rear engine and mid engine cars run way less front tire than the Vette.
Even cars like the F458 or Cayman have a fwd bias as they are almost standing on their nose during max braking on sticky tires.
10-03-2018, 05:51 PM
#45
Melting Slicks
GM needs to build a very high end Corvette in limited numbers. The words” high end” and” limited numbers” confuse GM, but 500 units at 175K will make lots of money and let GM stretch its design limits beyond the standard Corvette sports car that can be a grocery getter.
10-04-2018, 07:38 AM
#46
Melting Slicks
.
If I were GM, I would quit selling the Corvette outright to dealers. I would have an initial payment and then I would split with the dealer profit on the actual sale price. This could be done with an amendment to the franchise agreement. This would also help deter the dealers from their crazy mark ups. GM needs to exert more control on final price of the cars.
As far as the profit being “gross”, GM needs to make money (We still live in a capitalist country, I think. Profit is not gross.) But, I’m not suggesting they sell the current Corvette at that price; I am suggesting they make the Corvette ME C8 500 unit car much, much better quality and sell it at that price. A very well-made car, super fast and with amazing bits, made in very limited numbers, is instantly collectible and desirable. It would sell and would add cachet to the entire brand.
Also I have said on this forum several times that GM needs to market all Corvettes only through “Corvette certified“ dealers. They should have about 50 dealers nationwide that are Corvette certified, and it should be noted on their signage on the front of the building. These dealers should have well trained sales people, incredibly well trained service people, and all proper equipment to service the cars. I know GM is trying to do this with their performance certified dealers, but finding the information is difficult and since the Corvette is the premium sports car, and rather unique in the GM lineup, it should have the benefit of a dealership within a dealership. An added benefit would be that these dealerships could provide the level of service that Porsche dealerships provide to their customers. If you’ve ever owned a Porsche, or premium sports car from another maker, you will find that they generally give better service than Chevy dealers, who service everything from Corvettes to Cruzes.
In Consideration for getting the Corvette certification, dealerships would have to agree to the profit sharing arrangement detailed above.
As far as the profit being “gross”, GM needs to make money (We still live in a capitalist country, I think. Profit is not gross.) But, I’m not suggesting they sell the current Corvette at that price; I am suggesting they make the Corvette ME C8 500 unit car much, much better quality and sell it at that price. A very well-made car, super fast and with amazing bits, made in very limited numbers, is instantly collectible and desirable. It would sell and would add cachet to the entire brand.
Also I have said on this forum several times that GM needs to market all Corvettes only through “Corvette certified“ dealers. They should have about 50 dealers nationwide that are Corvette certified, and it should be noted on their signage on the front of the building. These dealers should have well trained sales people, incredibly well trained service people, and all proper equipment to service the cars. I know GM is trying to do this with their performance certified dealers, but finding the information is difficult and since the Corvette is the premium sports car, and rather unique in the GM lineup, it should have the benefit of a dealership within a dealership. An added benefit would be that these dealerships could provide the level of service that Porsche dealerships provide to their customers. If you’ve ever owned a Porsche, or premium sports car from another maker, you will find that they generally give better service than Chevy dealers, who service everything from Corvettes to Cruzes.
In Consideration for getting the Corvette certification, dealerships would have to agree to the profit sharing arrangement detailed above.
Last edited by quick04Z06; 10-04-2018 at 07:56 AM.
10-04-2018, 07:51 AM
#47
Melting Slicks
If GM were only going to build 500 of them, and they truly are high end, lightweight and super performance, GM could easily charge $375,000 for each of them, which would net GM about $250,000 per car for the engineering and development or $125 million and it could still benefit from the engineering of the volume product. Keep in mind this wouldn't be like the ZR1, which is built off of almost all existing C7 parts and architecture (hence its 3,600+ lb weight); rather it would use the same basic architecture and some common parts but would need to be all carbon fiber and make at least 850 hp.
Last edited by quick04Z06; 10-04-2018 at 07:55 AM.
10-04-2018, 12:48 PM
#48
Drifting
Also I have said on this forum several times that GM needs to market all Corvettes only through “Corvette certified“ dealers. They should have about 50 dealers nationwide that are Corvette certified, and it should be noted on their signage on the front of the building. These dealers should have well trained sales people, incredibly well trained service people, and all proper equipment to service the cars. I know GM is trying to do this with their performance certified dealers, but finding the information is difficult and since the Corvette is the premium sports car, and rather unique in the GM lineup, it should have the benefit of a dealership within a dealership. An added benefit would be that these dealerships could provide the level of service that Porsche dealerships provide to their customers. If you’ve ever owned a Porsche, or premium sports car from another maker, you will find that they generally give better service than Chevy dealers, who service everything from Corvettes to Cruzes.
https://www.corvetteforum.com/forums...ate-brand.html
10-05-2018, 01:29 PM
#50
I really know,
68,000 tons......
68,000 tons......
10-05-2018, 11:29 PM
#51
Burning Brakes
If Chevy were only building 500 of anything, they wouldn't need a plant as big as Bowling Green. They would make more money subcontracting the whole thing out to Multi-matic or Dallara and end up with a better car, but it would cost as much or more as a Ferrari and be less desirable. Why buy an ersatz Ferrari when you can buy a real one for less ??
In fact, the Corvette business model doesn't close unless they sell many, many more cars than this - at least 12,000 a year and what they would like is 33,000-40,000 for the first two years. Because of scale, Chevy makes FAR more money from Corvette sales than Ferrari has ever made in selling anything they make. (Ferrari makes about 7000 cars a year - 3000 488's, 3000 Californias / Portofinos and 1000 12-cylinder specials (Superfast, Laferrari, Monza SP1/2) . Its not even close. The reason Chevy will never sell 500 of anything is because it is not worth their time to do so. The 2019 ZR1 is limited to 2000 units and they will be lucky to break even on it.
In fact, the Corvette business model doesn't close unless they sell many, many more cars than this - at least 12,000 a year and what they would like is 33,000-40,000 for the first two years. Because of scale, Chevy makes FAR more money from Corvette sales than Ferrari has ever made in selling anything they make. (Ferrari makes about 7000 cars a year - 3000 488's, 3000 Californias / Portofinos and 1000 12-cylinder specials (Superfast, Laferrari, Monza SP1/2) . Its not even close. The reason Chevy will never sell 500 of anything is because it is not worth their time to do so. The 2019 ZR1 is limited to 2000 units and they will be lucky to break even on it.
10-07-2018, 04:35 PM
#53
Team Owner
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St. Jude Donor '15
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After all you did say, "no options" which means an A8 is an option.
10-08-2018, 07:57 PM
#54
Melting Slicks
If Chevy were only building 500 of anything, they wouldn't need a plant as big as Bowling Green. They would make more money subcontracting the whole thing out to Multi-matic or Dallara and end up with a better car, but it would cost as much or more as a Ferrari and be less desirable. Why buy an ersatz Ferrari when you can buy a real one for less ??
In fact, the Corvette business model doesn't close unless they sell many, many more cars than this - at least 12,000 a year and what they would like is 33,000-40,000 for the first two years. Because of scale, Chevy makes FAR more money from Corvette sales than Ferrari has ever made in selling anything they make. (Ferrari makes about 7000 cars a year - 3000 488's, 3000 Californias / Portofinos and 1000 12-cylinder specials (Superfast, Laferrari, Monza SP1/2) . Its not even close. The reason Chevy will never sell 500 of anything is because it is not worth their time to do so. The 2019 ZR1 is limited to 2000 units and they will be lucky to break even on it.
In fact, the Corvette business model doesn't close unless they sell many, many more cars than this - at least 12,000 a year and what they would like is 33,000-40,000 for the first two years. Because of scale, Chevy makes FAR more money from Corvette sales than Ferrari has ever made in selling anything they make. (Ferrari makes about 7000 cars a year - 3000 488's, 3000 Californias / Portofinos and 1000 12-cylinder specials (Superfast, Laferrari, Monza SP1/2) . Its not even close. The reason Chevy will never sell 500 of anything is because it is not worth their time to do so. The 2019 ZR1 is limited to 2000 units and they will be lucky to break even on it.
I am suggesting Corvette build a 500 unit homologation special run in addirion to their usual production. Corvette does some tape and badge jobs, but I was suggesting a real supercar. It would do wonders for building brand cachet above the everyman sports car level....and make them lots of money.
Last edited by quick04Z06; 10-08-2018 at 07:59 PM.