McLellan, Hill & Wallace talks Mid Engine
10-02-2018, 09:55 PM
#21
Le Mans Master
The C7 is old. If the C8 is too expensive, I'll be looking at another brand. So will a lot of other people.
Last edited by Michael A; 10-02-2018 at 09:56 PM.
10-02-2018, 10:07 PM
#22
Melting Slicks
The refreshed FE will likely get the Cadillac turbo motors with 500 and 550 hp plus better fuel economy and smoothness. Those motors use the new 10 speed auto and the 7 speed manual will be available. With a price of $60-75K they will sell every one without discounts.
10-02-2018, 10:09 PM
#23
Team Owner
Member Since: Feb 2000
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CI 1-4-5-8-9-10 Vet
St. Jude Donor '03,'04,'05,'07,08,'09,'10,’17
So now Corvette Forum Members directly attack McClellan and Hill. Really. These two guys did a tremendous job as the “Tadge” of their respective eras. Each also set the stage for the achievements of their successors. In case either of these two fine gentlemen are perusing this website and forum I would like to apologize for the people on here who know the price of everything and the value of nothing.
name the CF members who directly attack McClellan and Hill......
10-02-2018, 10:15 PM
#24
Pro
It’s the blatant dissing of their contributions to the Corvette that is disrespectful and distasteful.
10-02-2018, 10:33 PM
#25
Le Mans Master
The current Z06 and ZR1 have proven beyond doubt that Corvette can sell cars at a price point between $75-150K. The new ME will out-perform the Z06 right out of the gate and eventually it will exceed the ZR1 too, for less money. So there will be better bang for the buck with the ME and it will beat any Porsche under $200K.
The refreshed FE will likely get the Cadillac turbo motors with 500 and 550 hp plus better fuel economy and smoothness. Those motors use the new 10 speed auto and the 7 speed manual will be available. With a price of $60-75K they will sell every one without discounts.
The refreshed FE will likely get the Cadillac turbo motors with 500 and 550 hp plus better fuel economy and smoothness. Those motors use the new 10 speed auto and the 7 speed manual will be available. With a price of $60-75K they will sell every one without discounts.
10-02-2018, 10:37 PM
#26
Melting Slicks
10-02-2018, 10:38 PM
#27
Race Director
What did I say that was not 100% true?
I didn't call either guy names, I think they are fine guys who did good things. Since I never owned a C4, my comments about DM were simply me disagreeing with him. As far as C5/C6, those were Dave Hill's cars and they had ONGOING issues throughout the generation's production runs.
I bought $200,000+ worth of Dave Hill's engineering (1998/2001/2005/2008) and lived with EVERY issue (except the LS9 head debacle because I never had a C6 Z06) that I pointed out.
Now, my C7, at 4.5 years old is EASILY the MOST reliable Corvette of the 5 I've owned. Oil changes and tires are it, that could not be said for ANY of my previous Corvettes.
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Zaro Tundov (10-11-2018)
10-02-2018, 11:09 PM
#28
Melting Slicks
I personally would rather see a better product with a higher price point than maintain status quo. I don’t understand the mindset of making the Corvette less than it can be for those who may no longer be able to buy a new one. There is always a used market and garage queens that will take the usual depreciation hit. The Best Bang for the Buck award that’s always hung around the Corvettes bonnet doesn’t do it for me. Offering a less expensive FE along with the ME may be the best approach if the goal is to keep its image of the blue collar sports car for the masses..
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10-02-2018, 11:25 PM
#29
Race Director
It's been said since the mules were first spotted by guys that have far reaching hooks inside like Mike furman for one example. And if you recall, he said both C7 and C8 built same time for several years.
is that true? Idk. But it would make sense since we were told they are being built alongside one another.
it makes even more sense that they would continue to make the C7 while the first couple year bugs are worked out of the C8. Demand will be high supply? Low as they control exposure. They blew it with the fiero. Chevy and Corvette for that matter isnt going to make another fiero disaster (cutting corners for the accountants) and to be profitable maybe they need the lower priced C7s to fill a need/gap?
fun times ahead...
not sure if you saw my Carlisle post but a guy in the know, a higher up, told me when I asked "if I wanted an FE Corvette in 3 or 4 years could I buy a new one?" His answer "I cant say that"... said it with a real hesitation like letting me down easy lol.
But he did reassure me the C8 fits two golf bags in the cargo area - which my concern was having next to nothing to make a trek like Carlisle as i do in my C7 with huge cargo capacity. Something forgotten about whenever you see the comparos. Real world livability so to speak with supercar performance nothing better in the world at both. NOTHING.
is that true? Idk. But it would make sense since we were told they are being built alongside one another.
it makes even more sense that they would continue to make the C7 while the first couple year bugs are worked out of the C8. Demand will be high supply? Low as they control exposure. They blew it with the fiero. Chevy and Corvette for that matter isnt going to make another fiero disaster (cutting corners for the accountants) and to be profitable maybe they need the lower priced C7s to fill a need/gap?
fun times ahead...
not sure if you saw my Carlisle post but a guy in the know, a higher up, told me when I asked "if I wanted an FE Corvette in 3 or 4 years could I buy a new one?" His answer "I cant say that"... said it with a real hesitation like letting me down easy lol.
But he did reassure me the C8 fits two golf bags in the cargo area - which my concern was having next to nothing to make a trek like Carlisle as i do in my C7 with huge cargo capacity. Something forgotten about whenever you see the comparos. Real world livability so to speak with supercar performance nothing better in the world at both. NOTHING.
Last edited by 23/C8Z; 10-02-2018 at 11:29 PM.
10-02-2018, 11:31 PM
#30
Le Mans Master
Once the C8 mid-engine Corvette is announced in January of 2019 at the Detroit Auto Show (and no, it won't be announced anywhere else or at any other time), front-engine C7 Corvette's will end production shortly thereafter and from that point forward only the C8 mid-engine Corvette will be produced. Period. End of story.
10-03-2018, 12:21 AM
#31
Le Mans Master
I don't think it matters what engine is in the FE, people are losing interest, myself included. Sales are down. We still have '17s on the lots. If people are going to spend $60K, they want something fresh and new. I would probably buy a low option Cayman. With that strategy, they may lose Corvette buyers for life.
10-03-2018, 12:23 AM
#32
Le Mans Master
10-03-2018, 12:30 AM
#33
Heel & Toe
Member Since: Sep 2018
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I assume you're commenting on my post...
What did I say that was not 100% true?
I didn't call either guy names, I think they are fine guys who did good things. Since I never owned a C4, my comments about DM were simply me disagreeing with him. As far as C5/C6, those were Dave Hill's cars and they had ONGOING issues throughout the generation's production runs.
I bought $200,000+ worth of Dave Hill's engineering (1998/2001/2005/2008) and lived with EVERY issue (except the LS9 head debacle because I never had a C6 Z06) that I pointed out.
Now, my C7, at 4.5 years old is EASILY the MOST reliable Corvette of the 5 I've owned. Oil changes and tires are it, that could not be said for ANY of my previous Corvettes.
What did I say that was not 100% true?
I didn't call either guy names, I think they are fine guys who did good things. Since I never owned a C4, my comments about DM were simply me disagreeing with him. As far as C5/C6, those were Dave Hill's cars and they had ONGOING issues throughout the generation's production runs.
I bought $200,000+ worth of Dave Hill's engineering (1998/2001/2005/2008) and lived with EVERY issue (except the LS9 head debacle because I never had a C6 Z06) that I pointed out.
Now, my C7, at 4.5 years old is EASILY the MOST reliable Corvette of the 5 I've owned. Oil changes and tires are it, that could not be said for ANY of my previous Corvettes.
10-03-2018, 01:35 AM
#34
Ummm ok! Good luck finding another car that looks as good and performs as good for anything close to what the C7 or C8 may cost! And I'm pretty confident that if Corvette loses their tiny minority of "car poor" buyers due to higher prices, they will gain some new buyers on the other end.
10-03-2018, 01:44 AM
#36
I personally would rather see a better product with a higher price point than maintain status quo. I don’t understand the mindset of making the Corvette less than it can be for those who may no longer be able to buy a new one. There is always a used market and garage queens that will take the usual depreciation hit. The Best Bang for the Buck award that’s always hung around the Corvettes bonnet doesn’t do it for me. Offering a less expensive FE along with the ME may be the best approach if the goal is to keep its image of the blue collar sports car for the masses..
Although I always scratch my head when someone that calls a toy that averages probably around $75K "blue collar" lol. It's funny when someone drives a $55K daily driver like something like a Jaguar XF or Mercedes E Class their looked at upper-middle class to affluent but when someone buys a higher priced Corvette it's something else lol.
10-03-2018, 02:25 PM
#37
Melting Slicks
Corvette and GM have almost never understood long term marketing strategy.
Corvettes typical generation marketing cycle...
1st year: sales for previous gen almost disappear in spite of steep discounts and a bonus model with unique performance and/or looks. New car basically debuts at sticker price and the first few hundreds or thousands often go at a premium. Sales volume is usually quite high.
2nd year - 3rd year: assuming 1st year buyers express general happiness, sales volumes continue apace often with a slight increase in year 2 and a slight decrease in year 3.
In year 3-4 they bring some increases in power or handling and maybe some new jazzy body parts.
In years 4-5 or 4-6, the sales volumes measurably decrease and the discounts measurably increase.
In year 5 as sales begin to plummet further, they start to flood the market with rumors about the next “generation.” Which causes sales to plummet even further and discounts to flow like water. Then in about year 6 or 7 they launch the new generation and the cycle starts anew.
If Corvette launches parallel FE & ME lines in 2019-2020 and actually gives each car or level of car within those respective lines a named designation and finally ends the extremely limiting and self defeating generational designations they can stop the cyclical extremes and launch improvements to each line or sub-line car as the market for each car dictates.
Corvettes currently sell for from low $40’s to mid $80’s and then higher performance cars run from mid $70’s to low $100’s with very high end cars now running low $100’s to about $145ish.
Anyone who believes that Corvette can ignore the base price ranges of mid $40’s to mid $60’s with impunity and completely eliminate the cargo and road trip capabilities of the FE coupes simply doesn’t comprehend the Corvette historical marketplace and the true nature of the fragility of Corvette survival within GM.
As Edmunds and other reviewers have said for many years, the Corvette family of vehicles represents “unbeatable performance for the price”, “excellent entry level pricing”, “the coupes generous cargo space”, and “comfortable cruiser”. Again, anyone who believes that Corvette can abandon anywhere from 2-3 of those traditional Corvette marketing standards without endangering the survival of the Corvette, simply doesn’t get it. Corvette survival it is not about what the high perfromance street nuts want, it is not about what the track nuts want, and it is not about what the ”I can afford anything” elitists want.
Rather, it is about what the base car Corvette buyers want and how to attract more of them, not less of them.
Corvettes typical generation marketing cycle...
1st year: sales for previous gen almost disappear in spite of steep discounts and a bonus model with unique performance and/or looks. New car basically debuts at sticker price and the first few hundreds or thousands often go at a premium. Sales volume is usually quite high.
2nd year - 3rd year: assuming 1st year buyers express general happiness, sales volumes continue apace often with a slight increase in year 2 and a slight decrease in year 3.
In year 3-4 they bring some increases in power or handling and maybe some new jazzy body parts.
In years 4-5 or 4-6, the sales volumes measurably decrease and the discounts measurably increase.
In year 5 as sales begin to plummet further, they start to flood the market with rumors about the next “generation.” Which causes sales to plummet even further and discounts to flow like water. Then in about year 6 or 7 they launch the new generation and the cycle starts anew.
If Corvette launches parallel FE & ME lines in 2019-2020 and actually gives each car or level of car within those respective lines a named designation and finally ends the extremely limiting and self defeating generational designations they can stop the cyclical extremes and launch improvements to each line or sub-line car as the market for each car dictates.
Corvettes currently sell for from low $40’s to mid $80’s and then higher performance cars run from mid $70’s to low $100’s with very high end cars now running low $100’s to about $145ish.
Anyone who believes that Corvette can ignore the base price ranges of mid $40’s to mid $60’s with impunity and completely eliminate the cargo and road trip capabilities of the FE coupes simply doesn’t comprehend the Corvette historical marketplace and the true nature of the fragility of Corvette survival within GM.
As Edmunds and other reviewers have said for many years, the Corvette family of vehicles represents “unbeatable performance for the price”, “excellent entry level pricing”, “the coupes generous cargo space”, and “comfortable cruiser”. Again, anyone who believes that Corvette can abandon anywhere from 2-3 of those traditional Corvette marketing standards without endangering the survival of the Corvette, simply doesn’t get it. Corvette survival it is not about what the high perfromance street nuts want, it is not about what the track nuts want, and it is not about what the ”I can afford anything” elitists want.
Rather, it is about what the base car Corvette buyers want and how to attract more of them, not less of them.
Last edited by B747VET; 10-03-2018 at 02:29 PM.
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skank (10-03-2018)
10-03-2018, 03:07 PM
#38
Melting Slicks
THIS!!
Although I always scratch my head when someone that calls a toy that averages probably around $75K "blue collar" lol. It's funny when someone drives a $55K daily driver like something like a Jaguar XF or Mercedes E Class their looked at upper-middle class to affluent but when someone buys a higher priced Corvette it's something else lol.
Although I always scratch my head when someone that calls a toy that averages probably around $75K "blue collar" lol. It's funny when someone drives a $55K daily driver like something like a Jaguar XF or Mercedes E Class their looked at upper-middle class to affluent but when someone buys a higher priced Corvette it's something else lol.
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skank (10-03-2018)
10-03-2018, 03:26 PM
#39
After reading this I think the ME car will just be another choice in buying a Corvette. Im guessing there will be a C8 mid engine and in a couple of years a C8 front engine car. Dave Hill pretty much said it plain as day that the Front engine Corvette is the most ideal platform as a multi use sports car. What I see happening there will be two kinds of Corvettes The front engine cars will be the Stingray and Grand Sport while the mid engine cars will take the place of the Z06 and Zr1.
The reference to the base price of the M/E to be around 80K puts it smack in the Z06 of today's price point. Its all there Gentlemen you just have to read between the lines and fill in the blanks a little.
The reference to the base price of the M/E to be around 80K puts it smack in the Z06 of today's price point. Its all there Gentlemen you just have to read between the lines and fill in the blanks a little.
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vndkshn (10-04-2018)
10-03-2018, 03:31 PM
#40
Melting Slicks
After reading this I think the ME car will just be another choice in buying a Corvette. Im guessing there will be a C8 mid engine and in a couple of years a C8 front engine car. Dave Hill pretty much said it plain as day that the Front engine Corvette is the most ideal platform as a multi use sports car. What I see happening there will be two kinds of Corvettes The front engine cars will be the Stingray and Grand Sport while the mid engine cars will take the place of the Z06 and Zr1.
The reference to the base price of the M/E to be around 80K puts it smack in the Z06 of today's price point. Its all there Gentlemen you just have to read between the lines and fill in the blanks a little.
The reference to the base price of the M/E to be around 80K puts it smack in the Z06 of today's price point. Its all there Gentlemen you just have to read between the lines and fill in the blanks a little.