McLellan, Hill & Wallace talks Mid Engine
10-02-2018, 03:47 PM
#1
Melting Slicks
Thread Starter
McLellan, Hill & Wallace talks Mid Engine
Interesting interview! Appreciate getting to hear from the guys who had a hand in the vettes success!
https://www.hagerty.com/articles-vid...ecades-to-make
https://www.hagerty.com/articles-vid...ecades-to-make
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Popular Reply
10-02-2018, 07:11 PM
Racer
Once the C8 mid-engine Corvette is announced in January of 2019 at the Detroit Auto Show (and no, it won't be announced anywhere else or at any other time), front-engine C7 Corvette's will end production shortly thereafter and from that point forward only the C8 mid-engine Corvette will be produced. Period. End of story.
10-02-2018, 04:56 PM
#2
Melting Slicks
This is in line with what I have been thinking also. Both FE and ME will be produced and a bandwidth price range starting at 80k plus up to 180k for the C8 ME and 65k to 150k for the C8 FE. Both McLellan and Hill are also projecting higher end mid engine pricing with both configurations going forward.
10-02-2018, 05:07 PM
#3
Drifting
So according to McLellan and Hill, they both think the C8 ME should be a "halo" vehicle for the Corvette line and not include a base car that's affordable. Doesn't seem to jive with what's being reported about the new ME.
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KnightDriveTV (10-03-2018)
10-02-2018, 05:16 PM
#5
Pro
Wow!! Does this sound familiar!!!!!!!
10-02-2018, 05:48 PM
#6
Melting Slicks
The C8 ME ZORA targa base model to now debut at Los Angeles with both targa and folding hard top base model at Detroit. Though Detroit could debut both without Los Angeles getting the first look. The higher performance wide body ME ZORA will then debut at next years Pebble Beach Concour D'Elegance. Both ME targa and folding hard top models and future higher performance models will be both left hand and right hand drive for all world wide markets. England and Australia can then expand the Corvette marketing. The new C8 FE Stingray, Grand Sport, ZO6, and ZR1 models going forward will also be both left and right hand drive for all world wide markets. Therefore both ME and FE models will be left and right hand drives going forward by utilizing common left or right steering and control assemblies. The ZORA name being trademarked in capitalized letters world wide indicates this.
Last edited by skank; 10-02-2018 at 06:09 PM.
10-02-2018, 06:04 PM
#8
Melting Slicks
Reading this Hagarty article reaffirms what most logical people are thinking. The current bandwidth of all four C7 Corvette models is a barebones Stingray at $56,590.00 to 150K plus in a loaded up ZR1. I am projecting the next generation C8 FE to start a barebones 65K. The content in the ME will be much higher in cost. The ZF DCT and the ZF magnetorheological engine mounts alone will add thousands to the base price of the new ME. And the ZF DCT and ZF engine mounts are clearly shown on the Base engined C8 Zerv leak views. The base price delta between the front engined C8 and the mid engined C8 ZORA should be 15k to 25K alone based on transmission and driveline advancements. Therefore the bandwidth of both C8 FE and ME going forward should range from 65K to 180K.
Last edited by skank; 10-02-2018 at 06:31 PM.
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Tron1 (10-03-2018)
10-02-2018, 06:26 PM
#9
I have a hard time thinking there will be a FE C8 when there have been zero sightings of a test car to date. These cars take 2-3 years of development and always have sightings well ahead of their reveal, they aren't just going to make one appear out of thin air while the ME car is seen regularly. The only way I can see that happening if they just take the C7 and make it look a little different... and that would be a bit lame.
We'll see what happens. We are all pretty much guessing at this point.
We'll see what happens. We are all pretty much guessing at this point.
10-02-2018, 06:45 PM
#10
Melting Slicks
I have a hard time thinking there will be a FE C8 when there have been zero sightings of a test car to date. These cars take 2-3 years of development and always have sightings well ahead of their reveal, they aren't just going to make one appear out of thin air while the ME car is seen regularly. The only way I can see that happening if they just take the C7 and make it look a little different... and that would be a bit lame.
We'll see what happens. We are all pretty much guessing at this point.
We'll see what happens. We are all pretty much guessing at this point.
This is a post that I made a while back for you to ponder.
There seems to be two camps on what the C8 generation Corvette is. This has surprisingly become a contentious issue with the Corvette faithful. One side thinks there will only be a mid engined version. The other side thinks we will have both front engined models and a mid engined model. Since there currently is a 65 year history of front engined Corvettes, why would Chevrolet ever want to walk away from that fan base? More importantly why wouldn't they do both and expand the demographics of the Corvette buyer? I personally think they will build both and we can go over the attributes of both configurations. Looking at how successful the C7 generation has been, why wouldn't they just massage and expand new technologies into the C7 platform to give us the best FE yet ! They already have in place the robotic equipment to build the C7 space frame chassis. New advancements on the mid engine chassis have shown high-pressure die-cast aluminum or magnesium structural ribbed chassis stiffeners, struts, and brackets. The new ME is also using an advanced mixed-material approach for the lightweight body structure and that tech would certainly transfer over to the C8 FE chassis. The new C8 FE chassis would therefore most likely be lighter, stronger, and stiffer. Keeping the same body panel mounting point locations would then allow them to redesign the exterior body shape and in effect just switch out the body panels. A virtual new body design could be implemented easily and efficiently. A entirely new driver centric interior design could also be developed with a slightly higher level of quality specifications to give us the best FE interior ever. We know that they are developing the latest SBC OHV generation engine that in effect could be called the LT2. Most likely the suspension, brakes, and other control systems would carry over and could also be enhanced. Realizing that we currently have four FE models(Stingray, GS, ZO6, ZR1) they could still maintain that model progression. One big change that would most certainly get approval would be to redesign the front fascia to accommodate better breathing and reduced heat soak. I can see the new C8 ZO6 having a ZR1 style front fascia with 3 large openings to satisfy the track guys. Fixing any C7 issues while modernizing the FE platform would still create the best FE ever. Of course there will be a plethora of other changes so that we can expand the wide range of buyers.
Also, there is no need to have test mules on a refresh. Everything is done with CFD.
https://www.autodesk.com/products/cfd/overview
Last edited by skank; 10-02-2018 at 06:50 PM.
10-02-2018, 07:02 PM
#11
Melting Slicks
Thread Starter
I have a hard time thinking there will be a FE C8 when there have been zero sightings of a test car to date. These cars take 2-3 years of development and always have sightings well ahead of their reveal, they aren't just going to make one appear out of thin air while the ME car is seen regularly. The only way I can see that happening if they just take the C7 and make it look a little different... and that would be a bit lame.
We'll see what happens. We are all pretty much guessing at this point.
We'll see what happens. We are all pretty much guessing at this point.
10-02-2018, 07:11 PM
#12
Racer
Once the C8 mid-engine Corvette is announced in January of 2019 at the Detroit Auto Show (and no, it won't be announced anywhere else or at any other time), front-engine C7 Corvette's will end production shortly thereafter and from that point forward only the C8 mid-engine Corvette will be produced. Period. End of story.
10-02-2018, 07:18 PM
#13
Melting Slicks
Once the C8 mid-engine Corvette is announced in January of 2019 at the Detroit Auto Show (and no, it won't be announced anywhere else or at any other time), front-engine C7 Corvette's will end production shortly thereafter and from that point forward only the C8 mid-engine Corvette will be produced. Period. End of story.
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Rapid Fred (10-02-2018)
10-02-2018, 07:20 PM
#14
Once the C8 mid-engine Corvette is announced in January of 2019 at the Detroit Auto Show (and no, it won't be announced anywhere else or at any other time), front-engine C7 Corvette's will end production shortly thereafter and from that point forward only the C8 mid-engine Corvette will be produced. Period. End of story.
With one exception, they run a limited C8 like the Cadillac XLR
The XLR was built right along side of the Vette.
Last edited by norge1956; 10-02-2018 at 07:37 PM.
10-02-2018, 08:06 PM
#15
Race Director
A couple of things:
The DCT in the mid-engine is Tremec, not ZF.
Trusting anything McLellan says as fact is dangerous. He is the 82 year old FORMER chief engineer. He left the building over 20 years ago. His OPINION is what he is giving. And there is NO way that GM is going to make a "918" out of the chute.
Dave Hill is the guy that gave us "Service Column Lock" (ask anyone who owned a C5 about THAT), DBS (ask anyone who owned a 2005 manual C6 about THAT), seats that flopped forward on hard braking (ask C5/C6 owners about THAT), hoods that had to be pushed down on one side because they wouldn't latch properly (ask C5 owners about THAT), C6 Z06 heads that needed to be fixed...well, you get the idea.
And Tom Wallace???? While he remained VLE, he was chief engineer for blink of an eye.
The DCT in the mid-engine is Tremec, not ZF.
Trusting anything McLellan says as fact is dangerous. He is the 82 year old FORMER chief engineer. He left the building over 20 years ago. His OPINION is what he is giving. And there is NO way that GM is going to make a "918" out of the chute.
Dave Hill is the guy that gave us "Service Column Lock" (ask anyone who owned a C5 about THAT), DBS (ask anyone who owned a 2005 manual C6 about THAT), seats that flopped forward on hard braking (ask C5/C6 owners about THAT), hoods that had to be pushed down on one side because they wouldn't latch properly (ask C5 owners about THAT), C6 Z06 heads that needed to be fixed...well, you get the idea.
And Tom Wallace???? While he remained VLE, he was chief engineer for blink of an eye.
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RandomTask (10-03-2018)
10-02-2018, 08:12 PM
#16
Pro
It continues to baffle me how so many people can read the same article and get a completely different take from it. I completely agree with Skank! His logic is sound and all of you people that argue this point are barking up a tree. Do any of you have a lifeline to GM? All three of the engineers were in a position of decision making power during their tenures. Give it a break with the constant doubting.
10-02-2018, 08:30 PM
#17
Melting Slicks
It continues to baffle me how so many people can read the same article and get a completely different take from it. I completely agree with Skank! His logic is sound and all of you people that argue this point are barking up a tree. Do any of you have a lifeline to GM? All three of the engineers were in a position of decision making power during their tenures. Give it a break with the constant doubting.
Last edited by fasttoys; 10-02-2018 at 10:42 PM.
10-02-2018, 08:34 PM
#18
Melting Slicks
So now Corvette Forum Members directly attack McClellan and Hill. Really. These two guys did a tremendous job as the “Tadge” of their respective eras. Each also set the stage for the achievements of their successors. In case either of these two fine gentlemen are perusing this website and forum I would like to apologize for the people on here who know the price of everything and the value of nothing.
All of that having been said, I have long believed and felt that the positions expressed herein today by Skank are very valid and it now appears that such marketing perceptions have now been validated by Mc Clellan and and Hill. Notice that I said marketing decisions. Design decisions are a totally different subject. I know from my prime source of historic events in the GM and Corvette worlds, “value added” and mission flexibility have been the two hallmarks of the long term survival of the Corvette.
Many Corvette owners have long had an affinity for road trips and golf. Many young or first time owners have valued the fact that if they could only have one car, the C4, C5, C6 and C7 generations made it possible to have fairly high utility. A mid engine has almost no such levels of utility. The FE and the ME are vehicles with different missions and different marketing strategies. As Hill said, if there is only going to be one Corvette it should be an FE.
Back around 1990, GM executives refused to allow the C4 ZR1 to have a different body style than the base Corvette because they believed that the base car wouldn’t sell if a more exciting or “zoomie” looking Corvette existed. Highly respected Corvette consultants tried to convince GM that the base Corvette would actually sell better because of the cache of more exciting looking and performing peer models.
Today, that kind of thinking has finally ceased. The big challenge is that if there will be both CE and ME lines, how do they best draw the line on power, performance, and pricing objectives and at what price point the respective lines intersect without a negative impact on volume.
An ME line will greatly impact Corvette desirability, but the Corvette heritage will not long survive unless there is also an FE line which will continue to meet the needs of the majority of Corvettes owners.
All of that having been said, I have long believed and felt that the positions expressed herein today by Skank are very valid and it now appears that such marketing perceptions have now been validated by Mc Clellan and and Hill. Notice that I said marketing decisions. Design decisions are a totally different subject. I know from my prime source of historic events in the GM and Corvette worlds, “value added” and mission flexibility have been the two hallmarks of the long term survival of the Corvette.
Many Corvette owners have long had an affinity for road trips and golf. Many young or first time owners have valued the fact that if they could only have one car, the C4, C5, C6 and C7 generations made it possible to have fairly high utility. A mid engine has almost no such levels of utility. The FE and the ME are vehicles with different missions and different marketing strategies. As Hill said, if there is only going to be one Corvette it should be an FE.
Back around 1990, GM executives refused to allow the C4 ZR1 to have a different body style than the base Corvette because they believed that the base car wouldn’t sell if a more exciting or “zoomie” looking Corvette existed. Highly respected Corvette consultants tried to convince GM that the base Corvette would actually sell better because of the cache of more exciting looking and performing peer models.
Today, that kind of thinking has finally ceased. The big challenge is that if there will be both CE and ME lines, how do they best draw the line on power, performance, and pricing objectives and at what price point the respective lines intersect without a negative impact on volume.
An ME line will greatly impact Corvette desirability, but the Corvette heritage will not long survive unless there is also an FE line which will continue to meet the needs of the majority of Corvettes owners.
Last edited by B747VET; 10-03-2018 at 11:27 AM.
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skank (10-02-2018)
10-02-2018, 09:23 PM
#19
Once the C8 mid-engine Corvette is announced in January of 2019 at the Detroit Auto Show (and no, it won't be announced anywhere else or at any other time), front-engine C7 Corvette's will end production shortly thereafter and from that point forward only the C8 mid-engine Corvette will be produced. Period. End of story.
10-02-2018, 09:33 PM
#20
Melting Slicks
So the bottom line is that only Corvette and trucks were profitable for GM back in the darkest days of the Great Recession.
IOW, the FE Corvette is a profitable product and has been for over 60 years straight. The ME Corvette was never a priority for buyers and the business case for it was always weak.
But today the ME's sweet spot is $70-100K where bang for the buck is obvious. So the ME in that range will out-perform the FE Z06 and come close to the ZR1. Once the ME gets a 700 hp engine it will beat the ZR1 at a lower price point. IOW, both the FE Z06 and ZR1 will be discontinued and replaced by the ME.
The FE base Stingray and GS will carry on with upgraded engines (turbos with less displacement from Cadillac?), manual trans, DCT option, true convertible, new lux interior option.
So many choices will make for interesting times.
IOW, the FE Corvette is a profitable product and has been for over 60 years straight. The ME Corvette was never a priority for buyers and the business case for it was always weak.
But today the ME's sweet spot is $70-100K where bang for the buck is obvious. So the ME in that range will out-perform the FE Z06 and come close to the ZR1. Once the ME gets a 700 hp engine it will beat the ZR1 at a lower price point. IOW, both the FE Z06 and ZR1 will be discontinued and replaced by the ME.
The FE base Stingray and GS will carry on with upgraded engines (turbos with less displacement from Cadillac?), manual trans, DCT option, true convertible, new lux interior option.
So many choices will make for interesting times.