C8 already influencing the industry
10-22-2018, 04:59 PM
#21
Burning Brakes
1. If it's bigger than a 488, It's a 720s and V12 Lamborghini competitor, not a C8, 570s, Huracan, and R8 competitor.
2. Ferrari couldn't care less about the C8
3. Ferrari's build quality and material quality, as well as its dealership standards, all put any Ferrari product above almost all others. The exclusivity of Ferrari products, or at least the ones the general public sees, puts them even further above other brands and cars. As far as I know, you have to own a front-engine Ferrari to be able to walk into a dealer and buy a 488, and you have to a history of Ferrari ownership and be loyal to a dealer to get a Pista. Joe Shmoe down the street can't win the lottery and buy a 488 or an F12 TDF the next day, but he can drive on down to his local Chevy dealer and buy every allotment of Corvettes they have for the month if he so pleases.
4. Ferrari has been working on this car for at least three years, and the R&D for its powertrain started with the R&D of the LaFerrari. Corvette did not influence this Ferrari or any current Ferrari in any way.
The Corvette brand is the one being influenced by other brands, and is the one playing catch-up as they enter the supercar/exotic car game.
2. Ferrari couldn't care less about the C8
3. Ferrari's build quality and material quality, as well as its dealership standards, all put any Ferrari product above almost all others. The exclusivity of Ferrari products, or at least the ones the general public sees, puts them even further above other brands and cars. As far as I know, you have to own a front-engine Ferrari to be able to walk into a dealer and buy a 488, and you have to a history of Ferrari ownership and be loyal to a dealer to get a Pista. Joe Shmoe down the street can't win the lottery and buy a 488 or an F12 TDF the next day, but he can drive on down to his local Chevy dealer and buy every allotment of Corvettes they have for the month if he so pleases.
4. Ferrari has been working on this car for at least three years, and the R&D for its powertrain started with the R&D of the LaFerrari. Corvette did not influence this Ferrari or any current Ferrari in any way.
The Corvette brand is the one being influenced by other brands, and is the one playing catch-up as they enter the supercar/exotic car game.
10-22-2018, 05:18 PM
#22
Melting Slicks
Aston Valhalla seems like a righteous name but could hurt sales. After all, any buyer would be dooming any of their offspring to Ragnarok if they didn't prove themselves worthy.
10-22-2018, 05:55 PM
#23
Race Director
Everybody is dumping on the OP but there may be a grain of truth in there somewhere. The issue would be if Fiat and Ferrari are now working together on a tweener that marries Ferrari's technology and design legacy with the ability to mass-produce and deliver something along FIAT lines that might or might not be a much better version of that little ALFA sportscar. Probably under ALFA branding but that is wounded, I think -- could perhaps be ABARTH or, horrors, a return of the Dino.
Pure speculation on my part, but every Vette except for the 53-54 C1 pretty much killed everything in its price class when it came out -- and what, really, do the Italians have now in the Vette's space? Were they hoping to get there first and best?
Pure speculation on my part, but every Vette except for the 53-54 C1 pretty much killed everything in its price class when it came out -- and what, really, do the Italians have now in the Vette's space? Were they hoping to get there first and best?
Last edited by Rapid Fred; 10-22-2018 at 05:56 PM.
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vettedna (11-16-2018)
10-22-2018, 06:43 PM
#24
Burning Brakes
Everybody is dumping on the OP but there may be a grain of truth in there somewhere. The issue would be if Fiat and Ferrari are now working together on a tweener that marries Ferrari's technology and design legacy with the ability to mass-produce and deliver something along FIAT lines that might or might not be a much better version of that little ALFA sportscar. Probably under ALFA branding but that is wounded, I think -- could perhaps be ABARTH or, horrors, a return of the Dino.
Pure speculation on my part, but every Vette except for the 53-54 C1 pretty much killed everything in its price class when it came out -- and what, really, do the Italians have now in the Vette's space? Were they hoping to get there first and best?
Pure speculation on my part, but every Vette except for the 53-54 C1 pretty much killed everything in its price class when it came out -- and what, really, do the Italians have now in the Vette's space? Were they hoping to get there first and best?
10-22-2018, 06:45 PM
#25
Last edited by firstvettesoon; 10-22-2018 at 10:10 PM.
10-22-2018, 08:28 PM
#27
Burning Brakes
10-22-2018, 08:53 PM
#29
Burning Brakes
1. If it's bigger than a 488, It's a 720s and V12 Lamborghini competitor, not a C8, 570s, Huracan, and R8 competitor.
2. Ferrari couldn't care less about the C8
3. Ferrari's build quality and material quality, as well as its dealership standards, all put any Ferrari product above almost all others. The exclusivity of Ferrari products, or at least the ones the general public sees, puts them even further above other brands and cars. As far as I know, you have to own a front-engine Ferrari to be able to walk into a dealer and buy a 488, and you have to a history of Ferrari ownership and be loyal to a dealer to get a Pista. Joe Shmoe down the street can't win the lottery and buy a 488 or an F12 TDF the next day, but he can drive on down to his local Chevy dealer and buy every allotment of Corvettes they have for the month if he so pleases.
4. Ferrari has been working on this car for at least three years, and the R&D for its powertrain started with the R&D of the LaFerrari. Corvette did not influence this Ferrari or any current Ferrari in any way.
The Corvette brand is the one being influenced by other brands, and is the one playing catch-up as they enter the supercar/exotic car game.
2. Ferrari couldn't care less about the C8
3. Ferrari's build quality and material quality, as well as its dealership standards, all put any Ferrari product above almost all others. The exclusivity of Ferrari products, or at least the ones the general public sees, puts them even further above other brands and cars. As far as I know, you have to own a front-engine Ferrari to be able to walk into a dealer and buy a 488, and you have to a history of Ferrari ownership and be loyal to a dealer to get a Pista. Joe Shmoe down the street can't win the lottery and buy a 488 or an F12 TDF the next day, but he can drive on down to his local Chevy dealer and buy every allotment of Corvettes they have for the month if he so pleases.
4. Ferrari has been working on this car for at least three years, and the R&D for its powertrain started with the R&D of the LaFerrari. Corvette did not influence this Ferrari or any current Ferrari in any way.
The Corvette brand is the one being influenced by other brands, and is the one playing catch-up as they enter the supercar/exotic car game.
A great book to read on the subject is The Machine that Changed the World. I had to read it for my MBA class and loved every page. It is a little dated now, but not that much has changed, except the big mfg.s have caught Toyota and in many ways surpassed them.
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vettedna (11-16-2018)
10-22-2018, 09:06 PM
#30
I want some of what OP is smoking.
10-22-2018, 09:47 PM
#31
Le Mans Master
I was at the race track today in my C6 and a kind gentleman let me zip his AR 4C around and what a fun car. Light really does make right!
I really hope they can trim some weight out of the C8.
I really hope they can trim some weight out of the C8.
10-22-2018, 09:54 PM
#32
10-22-2018, 10:00 PM
#33
Team Owner
did you think the 488 would stay around forever?
10-22-2018, 10:43 PM
#34
Race Director
Member Since: Nov 2017
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2020 C6 of the Year Winner - Modified
Even under all the tarp that Ferrari is one sexy car.
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keagan (10-23-2018)
10-22-2018, 11:43 PM
#35
Le Mans Master
I didn't realize that the car companies reused each other's camo. C8 camo off, Ferrari camo on. 
Last edited by Michael A; 10-22-2018 at 11:43 PM.
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firstvettesoon (10-23-2018)
10-23-2018, 09:50 AM
#36
Drifting
Dude, even Porsche is running scared now! They're developing a 2020 sports car with a rear engine, code named "992," in an effort to leapfrog GM's revolutionary mid engine platform technology:
https://www.roadandtrack.com/new-car...thing-we-know/
https://www.roadandtrack.com/new-car...thing-we-know/
Last edited by Zaro Tundov; 10-23-2018 at 09:54 AM.
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vettedna (11-16-2018)
10-23-2018, 10:02 AM
#37
Dude, even Porsche is running scared now! They're developing a 2020 sports car with a rear engine, code named "992," in an effort to leapfrog GM's revolutionary mid engine platform technology:
https://www.roadandtrack.com/new-car...thing-we-know/
https://www.roadandtrack.com/new-car...thing-we-know/
: 0
10-24-2018, 09:18 AM
#39
Racer
A few years ago I was in Las Vegas and did some laps in a Ferrari 430 scuderia at the exotic racing experience track. That car was amazing. Cornered like it was literally on rails. Sounded incredible. I would love to be able to afford a mid engine Ferrari for a track toy. If the mid engine corvette is just 90% of a mid engine Ferrari it will be an awesome car.
10-24-2018, 11:43 AM
#40
Burning Brakes
The question is would GM want to. The McLaren Senna and the new Ford GT probably have the most sophisticated suspensions ever put into a road car, and they are derived, as you point out, from racing practice. They are also ungodly expensive to build and maintain. Maintenance, long-term, is a big question. No shade-tree mechanic will ever repair these things.
That said, GM has suspension design and modeling engineers are using comparable or better design and modeling tools than McLaren. I know for a fact that their CAD/CAM tools are MUCH better than what the Europeans are using because they use Unigraphics (UG, now called Siemens NX12) which has features that cannot presently be exported outside of the USA. Same goes for ABAQUS FEA and other tools. There is a great kinematic modeler called ADAMS CAR by MSC Software that McLaren, Bugatti and many European manufacturers use, but is an integral part of Siemens NX12. CATIA, (which I believe McLaren uses) is an very good CAD tool, but it still does not have the parametric solid modeling capability of UG, and it is usually translated to UG for CAM. UG has an integrated CAD / CAM architecture which has, IMHO, never been matched.
WRT to chassis layout and suspension design, F1 suspension designs are well understood by just about everyone - they are hard to hide. The same is true for Indy cars and endurance racing sports cars, which, through organizations like Pratt & Miller, Dallara, and Penske, GM has complete access to. GM may even have a complete model of the Senna suspension on a CAD tube today. Product designs are hard to hide, once they are released to the public - there is no stopping reverse engineering.
Manufacturing tools and processes. however, are still largely proprietary, because the companies that own them can carefully control the dissemination of information about them. It is easy to design something new that you can't economically build. It is much harder to design something that works just as well and that you can build for a profit. It is also possible to reverse engineer something that you like in a competitors product and figure out how to build it cheaper, relying on both superior CAM tools and scale. GM has both of these in abundance, which is how they can match McLaren or Ferrari performance at half (or less) of the cost.
That said, GM has suspension design and modeling engineers are using comparable or better design and modeling tools than McLaren. I know for a fact that their CAD/CAM tools are MUCH better than what the Europeans are using because they use Unigraphics (UG, now called Siemens NX12) which has features that cannot presently be exported outside of the USA. Same goes for ABAQUS FEA and other tools. There is a great kinematic modeler called ADAMS CAR by MSC Software that McLaren, Bugatti and many European manufacturers use, but is an integral part of Siemens NX12. CATIA, (which I believe McLaren uses) is an very good CAD tool, but it still does not have the parametric solid modeling capability of UG, and it is usually translated to UG for CAM. UG has an integrated CAD / CAM architecture which has, IMHO, never been matched.
WRT to chassis layout and suspension design, F1 suspension designs are well understood by just about everyone - they are hard to hide. The same is true for Indy cars and endurance racing sports cars, which, through organizations like Pratt & Miller, Dallara, and Penske, GM has complete access to. GM may even have a complete model of the Senna suspension on a CAD tube today. Product designs are hard to hide, once they are released to the public - there is no stopping reverse engineering.
Manufacturing tools and processes. however, are still largely proprietary, because the companies that own them can carefully control the dissemination of information about them. It is easy to design something new that you can't economically build. It is much harder to design something that works just as well and that you can build for a profit. It is also possible to reverse engineer something that you like in a competitors product and figure out how to build it cheaper, relying on both superior CAM tools and scale. GM has both of these in abundance, which is how they can match McLaren or Ferrari performance at half (or less) of the cost.
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Zaro Tundov (10-25-2018)