Cost of Mid-Engine
#22
Safety Car
All of these have been shown on the Zerv Leaks or indicated by new GM Patent's. I've applied a value next to each that I feel is comparable to prior option pricing from Corvette and Porsche "Build and Price" functions on their websites. A extreme example of my estimated pricing is the ZF DCT transaxle that has been shown on the Zerv Leaks. It is the same unit that is on the Porsche 918 that sells from Porsche Parts for $69,239.00. I've put a very conservative estimate of only $10,000.00 on that critical line item cost of the car. It could be much higher !!
1. Enhanced and Stiffened 3 part modular Chassis with High pressure castings as seen on Zerv leaks $1,000.00
7. Advanced high-pressure die-cast aluminum or magnesium structural ribbed chassis stiffeners, struts, and brackets on ME vs older generation tech on FE C7 chassis $1,000.00
8. Adaptive Aerodynamics or Active Aero as indicated in Patent Application and Zerv leaked CAD views on ME vs fixed aero components on FE C7 $3,000.00
15. Dual Port and Direct injection system on ME engines vs Direct injection only on LT1 and LT4 of FE C7 $1,500.00
21. Advanced mixed-material approach for the lightweight body structure on ME vs older tech on FE C7 $1,500.00
26. Swan Style(Aston Martin) upswing doors on ME vs standard door hinge arrangement on FE C7 $300.00
27. Possible electronically actuated manual transmission on ME vs standard manual on FE C7 $1,000.00
28. Potential Hybrid Drivetrain technology as indicated in GM Patent for ME vs none on FE C7 $3,000.00
.
1. Enhanced and Stiffened 3 part modular Chassis with High pressure castings as seen on Zerv leaks $1,000.00
7. Advanced high-pressure die-cast aluminum or magnesium structural ribbed chassis stiffeners, struts, and brackets on ME vs older generation tech on FE C7 chassis $1,000.00
8. Adaptive Aerodynamics or Active Aero as indicated in Patent Application and Zerv leaked CAD views on ME vs fixed aero components on FE C7 $3,000.00
15. Dual Port and Direct injection system on ME engines vs Direct injection only on LT1 and LT4 of FE C7 $1,500.00
21. Advanced mixed-material approach for the lightweight body structure on ME vs older tech on FE C7 $1,500.00
26. Swan Style(Aston Martin) upswing doors on ME vs standard door hinge arrangement on FE C7 $300.00
27. Possible electronically actuated manual transmission on ME vs standard manual on FE C7 $1,000.00
28. Potential Hybrid Drivetrain technology as indicated in GM Patent for ME vs none on FE C7 $3,000.00
.
Dual port injection? Sure there are two ports into each chamber but only one has port injection on the high powered engine. That already makes 16 injectors, 8 direct and 8 port. One requires a 5000 psi system, the other 100. 8 more injectors for the other ports makes 24 injectors, 16 with a 200 psi pump. What do you think all that weighs? Forget about an electro hydraulic actuated manual transmission. Why? The guide below will facilitate the description of the part and it's material and how they are connected. All this information is within this forum reaching back a few years and information provided by learned members including yourself. I don't know the rules for 20 20 Lemans, but currently. Carbon fiber structures, titanium and magnesium is not permitted in the GTe or GTLM class. The C8 uses all 3 materials.
Last edited by Shaka; 10-27-2018 at 04:35 PM.
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skank (10-27-2018)
#24
#25
Melting Slicks
Until GM announcement we are all speculating on the price regardless who we all think we know or been told.
If GM kills the C7 the new C8 will come in around 4K to 8k higher than the current equivalent C7 model. If GM decides to produce two versions, FE & ME then the ME will be more costly. I think the later is more risky for GM which is why I feel 90% sure the FE is dead and the ME we been seeing will be semi affordable. I also feel it’s bigger automotive news if GM can produce a mid-engine car that is competitive to cars costing 3 times as much. For those expecting a super high grade interior remember the highest grade GM produces today is from Cadillac which is still behind many of its Europe competition.
ME are more complex to produce as you have radiators in the front and many cooling lines going to the engine in the back. You can’t share parts as easily across the company since engine placement alone adds additional complexity. The serviceability for the dealers is more difficult with additional training, tools and equipment to work on the ME cars. I have owned many ME cars and when I took my Audi R8 into the dealer if the two certified mechanics were out that day my R8 sat till they came back to work. I hope GM hurry’s up as I am getting very impatient and tired of waiting for this unicorn to
be in my garage.
I Don’t have a horse in the race and truly don’t care which direction they go as I will have an ME in my garage within 6 months of its release.
If GM kills the C7 the new C8 will come in around 4K to 8k higher than the current equivalent C7 model. If GM decides to produce two versions, FE & ME then the ME will be more costly. I think the later is more risky for GM which is why I feel 90% sure the FE is dead and the ME we been seeing will be semi affordable. I also feel it’s bigger automotive news if GM can produce a mid-engine car that is competitive to cars costing 3 times as much. For those expecting a super high grade interior remember the highest grade GM produces today is from Cadillac which is still behind many of its Europe competition.
ME are more complex to produce as you have radiators in the front and many cooling lines going to the engine in the back. You can’t share parts as easily across the company since engine placement alone adds additional complexity. The serviceability for the dealers is more difficult with additional training, tools and equipment to work on the ME cars. I have owned many ME cars and when I took my Audi R8 into the dealer if the two certified mechanics were out that day my R8 sat till they came back to work. I hope GM hurry’s up as I am getting very impatient and tired of waiting for this unicorn to
be in my garage.
I Don’t have a horse in the race and truly don’t care which direction they go as I will have an ME in my garage within 6 months of its release.
Last edited by fasttoys; 10-27-2018 at 04:53 PM.
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purple heart (10-31-2018)
#26
Melting Slicks
Do you think Corvette will produce an ME with minimal flaws the first time it has tried it? If you buy one of the first cars, you will be guaranteed many visits to the dealer's service center and likely no fixes for some problems. Look at the A8: GM has had 5 years to fix it and still not right. GM has been building auto transmissions for 70 years! I am more interested in the refreshed C7 with the Caddy 4.2TT and a manual trans. More fun and less frustration with problems.
#27
I prefer manual transmissions too, and I won't purchase an ME if no true manual (with a 3rd pedal) is available, although my wife may be interested. However, my point here is that the take rate on manuals is now about 20%. Since the A10 won't fit in the current FE platform, do you really think they'd invest significant amounts in a new FE platform for an FE C8? If not, where is a magical new auto going to come from? Would GM keep the FE around just to satisfy 20% of manual owners? With only about 2K ZR1s being sold in the 19MY, and Z06 sales lagging, the market for a higher performance FE 2-seater is about played out.
What you suggest is a very risky strategy for the limited 2-seat sports car market, and GM is not known for making decisions like that. For the foreseeable future, I see GM only approving a single Corvette platform, which is the ME, and morphing it into many different performance/price levels. Corvette needs to sell a minimum of 40K ME C8 units annually to keep the GM corporate gods happy, and it is more likely to achieve that goal by delivering something totally new at various price levels that any current C7 owner can afford.
What you suggest is a very risky strategy for the limited 2-seat sports car market, and GM is not known for making decisions like that. For the foreseeable future, I see GM only approving a single Corvette platform, which is the ME, and morphing it into many different performance/price levels. Corvette needs to sell a minimum of 40K ME C8 units annually to keep the GM corporate gods happy, and it is more likely to achieve that goal by delivering something totally new at various price levels that any current C7 owner can afford.
Last edited by Foosh; 10-27-2018 at 05:55 PM.
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Zaro Tundov (10-27-2018)
#28
Race Director
Lets see your cost evaluations on the list above. Everyone of those component comparisons are happening. We will wait for your analysis of those numbers. This will be very entertaining. My numbers put the ME base price at 85K - 90k and yours are at 65k, only 8k above the barebones C7 Stingray.
And yes, I do think the car will be $65K-70K base and what I know is that you can post whatever you like to prove your POV, in the end one of us is going to be right and one is going to be wrong.
Last edited by jimmyb; 10-27-2018 at 06:13 PM.
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#29
Le Mans Master
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Do you think Corvette will produce an ME with minimal flaws the first time it has tried it? If you buy one of the first cars, you will be guaranteed many visits to the dealer's service center and likely no fixes for some problems. Look at the A8: GM has had 5 years to fix it and still not right. GM has been building auto transmissions for 70 years! I am more interested in the refreshed C7 with the Caddy 4.2TT and a manual trans. More fun and less frustration with problems.
#30
Melting Slicks
I said Corvette, not Pontiac which is long gone. The Fiero had a severe problem with engine fires due to inherent design flaws.
The C7 was not a radically new design like the Zora and neither was the C6. NWS, the C7's A8 is a flawed design that has not been fixed.
The Zora will certainly have many problems because it is completely new from the ground up. Pity the fool . . .
The C7 was not a radically new design like the Zora and neither was the C6. NWS, the C7's A8 is a flawed design that has not been fixed.
The Zora will certainly have many problems because it is completely new from the ground up. Pity the fool . . .
#32
Le Mans Master
I fail to see how a FE drive train would not cost MORE than a ME drive train::
a) no torque tube
b) no drive shaft
c) no universal/constant velocity joints
d) the transmission and differential are put into a single housing.
The ME version is BOUND to cost less than the FE version if it were identical (once amortized over volume.)
a) no torque tube
b) no drive shaft
c) no universal/constant velocity joints
d) the transmission and differential are put into a single housing.
The ME version is BOUND to cost less than the FE version if it were identical (once amortized over volume.)
#33
Melting Slicks
I fail to see how a FE drive train would not cost MORE than a ME drive train::
a) no torque tube
b) no drive shaft
c) no universal/constant velocity joints
d) the transmission and differential are put into a single housing.
The ME version is BOUND to cost less than the FE version if it were identical (once amortized over volume.)
a) no torque tube
b) no drive shaft
c) no universal/constant velocity joints
d) the transmission and differential are put into a single housing.
The ME version is BOUND to cost less than the FE version if it were identical (once amortized over volume.)
As to cost, you would be right - except that the ZF DCT costs approximately $3,000 more than the current A8 and $4,000 more than the M7 and the version with the integrated differential is another $2,000 - I doubt the torque tube and drive shaft cost GM more than $1,000.
Last edited by LIStingray; 10-28-2018 at 07:51 AM.
#34
Keep in mind that in 1988 even after GM spent 80 million dollars (in today's dollars) to develop Fiero 2.0 with it's own serious ME sport suspension it still sold for half the price of the Corvette of the time. At the same time GM Fiero Mules with the new suspension (in stock form) and turbo V6 could beat the Corvette of the day around the track. Aprox 3% of all Fieros were Fiero 2.0.
While Hulki Aldikacti engineered the foundation platform of Fiero to be a serious midengine sports car from the beginning ie the engine bay was designed to easily take a chevy small block and the structural integrity of the space frame was such that it had the best crash rating of anything GM (or anyone else other than a Volvo station wagon) built at the time. Despite Huki's best efforts Fiero 1.0 reputation was badly damaged by senior managements decision to use nasty parts bin components for the intro. .
While Hulki Aldikacti engineered the foundation platform of Fiero to be a serious midengine sports car from the beginning ie the engine bay was designed to easily take a chevy small block and the structural integrity of the space frame was such that it had the best crash rating of anything GM (or anyone else other than a Volvo station wagon) built at the time. Despite Huki's best efforts Fiero 1.0 reputation was badly damaged by senior managements decision to use nasty parts bin components for the intro. .
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#35
The problem with YOUR "cost analysis" is that you act like everything on the C7 is FREE. $10K for the DCT? So, you think the DCT is $10K MORE than the 7M/8A in the C7? Porsche, who I think you will agree gives NOTHING away charges $3,730 RETAIL for the PDK on a 911 GTS. Oh wait, they do (give stuff away)...PDK is a NO COST option on the GT3
And yes, I do think the car will be $65K-70K base and what I know is that you can post whatever you like to prove your POV, in the end one of us is going to be right and one is going to be wrong.
And yes, I do think the car will be $65K-70K base and what I know is that you can post whatever you like to prove your POV, in the end one of us is going to be right and one is going to be wrong.
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ArmchairArchitect (10-28-2018)
#36
Le Mans Master
Horsepower is 350, not 300.
Base price of Cayman is $57,950 including destination. Car and Driver tested the base Cayman manual, and with its measly 300 hp turbo engine did 60 in 4.3 seconds. Good enough. With all this talk of an $80K, $90K, $100K track car, WITH NO MANUAL AVAILABLE, you guys are doing a good job at talking me into a Cayman. I may go drive one and see what they are like.
I have no desire for a track car. I daily drive my cars. Track cars ride like crap, they're noisy, uncomfortable, and the R compound tires are gone in10K miles, if that.
Last edited by Michael A; 10-28-2018 at 01:25 PM.
#38
Burning Brakes
#39
Le Mans Master
As to item C on your list, those are still required unless you do away with a moving suspension in the rear, which could never work on the street.
As to cost, you would be right - except that the ZF DCT costs approximately $3,000 more than the current A8 and $4,000 more than the M7 and the version with the integrated differential is another $2,000 - I doubt the torque tube and drive shaft cost GM more than $1,000.
As to cost, you would be right - except that the ZF DCT costs approximately $3,000 more than the current A8 and $4,000 more than the M7 and the version with the integrated differential is another $2,000 - I doubt the torque tube and drive shaft cost GM more than $1,000.
#40
Burning Brakes
There is some confusion between the terms "cost" and "price".
In accounting terminology, "cost" is the actual cost to procure a component. "Price" is what it sells for or list price minus discount.
I have no problem with the list of components above as "price".
"Cost" is a whole different animal because you have to add indirect/allocated overhead, tooling, engineering, marketing, administration, etc. to arrive at the true "cost". Allocated cost to a particular "unit" is done on a logical formula that is determined by accounting "GAAP" methodology. A part can have a manufactured price of $1.00 can increase to $10,00 after factoring in engineering, tooling, etc. Cost accounting will make your head spin......and, yes, I have a BS in Accounting and experience as a CFO for a number of private and public companies.
Anyway, one of the biggest factor (if not the biggest) is the number of units that are projected to be built and sold because most of the sunk costs are allocated over that number. A low MSRP is critical to attract buyers. The lower, the more will be sold and I believe it has to be priced ~$70,000 at base to sell enough. If the ME has a starting price above $80,000 that will really impact the number sold. I am sure GM has modeled the estimated # sold over 5 years vs. the base MSRP.
In accounting terminology, "cost" is the actual cost to procure a component. "Price" is what it sells for or list price minus discount.
I have no problem with the list of components above as "price".
"Cost" is a whole different animal because you have to add indirect/allocated overhead, tooling, engineering, marketing, administration, etc. to arrive at the true "cost". Allocated cost to a particular "unit" is done on a logical formula that is determined by accounting "GAAP" methodology. A part can have a manufactured price of $1.00 can increase to $10,00 after factoring in engineering, tooling, etc. Cost accounting will make your head spin......and, yes, I have a BS in Accounting and experience as a CFO for a number of private and public companies.
Anyway, one of the biggest factor (if not the biggest) is the number of units that are projected to be built and sold because most of the sunk costs are allocated over that number. A low MSRP is critical to attract buyers. The lower, the more will be sold and I believe it has to be priced ~$70,000 at base to sell enough. If the ME has a starting price above $80,000 that will really impact the number sold. I am sure GM has modeled the estimated # sold over 5 years vs. the base MSRP.