Cost of Mid-Engine
The following 2 users liked this post by Supersonic 427:
Michael A (10-29-2018),
purple heart (10-31-2018)
10-29-2018, 01:40 AM
#42
Burning Brakes
Here's some simple math based on first year C7 sales for the Stingray (2014), the C7 Z06 (2015), the C7 GS (2016), and the ZR1 (2019). Each model debuted at a different price point and sold different total numbers. Number of units sold=37M / (Price/$10000)**3.7. This equation defines the Corvette price elasticity for the current market. One other factor - the units sold drop by about 13% for each year of subsequent production.
The only way you can run the remodeled Bowling Green plant at capacity and keep 1000 teammates employed is to sell 33,000 cars a year. You cannot sell that many unless the base price is no more than about $65K. There are not enough qualified Corvette buyers.
Skank's wish list of parts might end up in a C8 ZR1 model, but they will not all be in the base model. Also the C8 DCT is probably a Tremec part whose cost will be minimized by using it for every model produced - probably over 200,000 units. It may also end up in the Camaro which would really drive production up and unit cost down. Ruess is a big Camaro guy - if he is putting a DCT in the Corvette, you'll likely see it in the Camaro soon afterwards.
The only way you can run the remodeled Bowling Green plant at capacity and keep 1000 teammates employed is to sell 33,000 cars a year. You cannot sell that many unless the base price is no more than about $65K. There are not enough qualified Corvette buyers.
Skank's wish list of parts might end up in a C8 ZR1 model, but they will not all be in the base model. Also the C8 DCT is probably a Tremec part whose cost will be minimized by using it for every model produced - probably over 200,000 units. It may also end up in the Camaro which would really drive production up and unit cost down. Ruess is a big Camaro guy - if he is putting a DCT in the Corvette, you'll likely see it in the Camaro soon afterwards.
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10-29-2018, 06:58 AM
#43
Burning Brakes
Should we also factor in how the tariff changes will impact the price? My understanding is car prices in general will increase around $4k next year. If 40-50% of the parts are imported then that can drive cost up quite a bit.
10-29-2018, 09:22 AM
#44
Race Director
You clearly have a reading comprehension problem as the list above distinguishes the differences between the C7 FE and C8 ME. If you had followed the DCT transaxle debate you would have realized that the DCT Transaxle is the same one in the Porsche 918 that has a replacement price of $69,237.00 right off of the Porsche Parts website and not the PDK thats on the 911. The 911 PDK has zero correlation to the DCT transaxle shown on the ZORA in the Zerv Leaks. Reading the list above delineates the differences between the two (FE vs ME). Most clear minded people can grasp the delineation of the two. Sorry, that it escapes you.
Listen, you've got the whole thing worked out (in your mind). I think you're wrong. No need to get personal (comprehension problem...who died and made you king?). You think the C8 is going to have a ZF DCT (you're thinking the C8 will have the same transmission as an $800k, out of production, Porsche? A $69K unit at that???). I think it will have Tremec.
Get over yourself.
I'll expect an apology if you're wrong (but I won't hold my breath).
PS. I haven't been involved in the "DCT transaxle" debate because it just YOU arguing with a bunch of guys about what you THINK. There are NO facts. You guys can't even decide about motor mounts....
Last edited by jimmyb; 10-29-2018 at 11:58 AM.
The following users liked this post:
Shaka (10-29-2018)
10-29-2018, 11:00 AM
#46
Here's some simple math based on first year C7 sales for the Stingray (2014), the C7 Z06 (2015), the C7 GS (2016), and the ZR1 (2019). Each model debuted at a different price point and sold different total numbers. Number of units sold=37M / (Price/$10000)**3.7. This equation defines the Corvette price elasticity for the current market. One other factor - the units sold drop by about 13% for each year of subsequent production.
The only way you can run the remodeled Bowling Green plant at capacity and keep 1000 teammates employed is to sell 33,000 cars a year. You cannot sell that many unless the base price is no more than about $65K. There are not enough qualified Corvette buyers.
Skank's wish list of parts might end up in a C8 ZR1 model, but they will not all be in the base model. Also the C8 DCT is probably a Tremec part whose cost will be minimized by using it for every model produced - probably over 200,000 units. It may also end up in the Camaro which would really drive production up and unit cost down. Ruess is a big Camaro guy - if he is putting a DCT in the Corvette, you'll likely see it in the Camaro soon afterwards.
The only way you can run the remodeled Bowling Green plant at capacity and keep 1000 teammates employed is to sell 33,000 cars a year. You cannot sell that many unless the base price is no more than about $65K. There are not enough qualified Corvette buyers.
Skank's wish list of parts might end up in a C8 ZR1 model, but they will not all be in the base model. Also the C8 DCT is probably a Tremec part whose cost will be minimized by using it for every model produced - probably over 200,000 units. It may also end up in the Camaro which would really drive production up and unit cost down. Ruess is a big Camaro guy - if he is putting a DCT in the Corvette, you'll likely see it in the Camaro soon afterwards.
10-29-2018, 11:47 AM
#47
Race Director
So...
how did this prediction work out?
https://www.corvetteforum.com/forums...ebut-soon.html
You can make all the predictions you want. And some will agree and some will disagree.
Disagreeing with you does NOT make someone stupid (nor entitle YOU to be a jerk), as the above thread shows that this particular BIG prediction was DEAD WRONG.
how did this prediction work out?
https://www.corvetteforum.com/forums...ebut-soon.html
You can make all the predictions you want. And some will agree and some will disagree.
Disagreeing with you does NOT make someone stupid (nor entitle YOU to be a jerk), as the above thread shows that this particular BIG prediction was DEAD WRONG.
10-29-2018, 11:58 AM
#48
Melting Slicks
So...
how did this prediction work out?
https://www.corvetteforum.com/forums...ebut-soon.html
You can make all the predictions you want. And some will agree and some will disagree.
Disagreeing with you does NOT make someone stupid (nor entitle YOU to be a jerk), as the above thread shows that this particular BIG prediction was DEAD WRONG.
how did this prediction work out?
https://www.corvetteforum.com/forums...ebut-soon.html
You can make all the predictions you want. And some will agree and some will disagree.
Disagreeing with you does NOT make someone stupid (nor entitle YOU to be a jerk), as the above thread shows that this particular BIG prediction was DEAD WRONG.
Last edited by Steve Garrett; 10-29-2018 at 05:45 PM.
10-29-2018, 12:04 PM
#49
Race Director
And neither do you.
You have an OPINION just as I do. The difference is YOU get personal when I state mine (which disagees with YOURS), and then get offended when I push back.
Don't want smartass comments?
Then don't start the fight...easy
Also, to be VERY clear, I am talking about what the BASE C8 will retail for. NOT the HiPo variants that will follow.
Last edited by Steve Garrett; 10-29-2018 at 05:45 PM.
10-29-2018, 12:09 PM
#50
Melting Slicks
What are the extra costs, if any, of producing a mid-engine car? None
In other words, if you took roughly the same components in a C7 and made a mid-engine car, would there be additional expense just because it is mid-engine? NO
What components would have have to change? Transmission? YES anything else? EVERYTHING Is there extra plumbing? YES, Radiators in front, engine in middle wiring? Don't Know
In other words, if you took roughly the same components in a C7 and made a mid-engine car, would there be additional expense just because it is mid-engine? NO
What components would have have to change? Transmission? YES anything else? EVERYTHING Is there extra plumbing? YES, Radiators in front, engine in middle wiring? Don't Know
The following users liked this post:
milkrun (10-30-2018)
10-29-2018, 12:54 PM
#51
Race Director
All of these have been shown on the Zerv Leaks or indicated by new GM Patent's. I've applied a value next to each that I feel is comparable to prior option pricing from Corvette and Porsche "Build and Price" functions on their websites. A extreme example of my estimated pricing is the ZF DCT transaxle that has been shown on the Zerv Leaks. It is the same unit that is on the Porsche 918 that sells from Porsche Parts for $69,239.00. I've put a very conservative estimate of only $10,000.00 on that critical line item cost of the car. It could be much higher !!
1. Enhanced and Stiffened 3 part modular Chassis with High pressure castings as seen on Zerv leaks $1,000.00
2. 4 Magnetorheological Coilover Shocks on ME vs 2 transverse leaf springs and 4 Shocks on FE C7 $2,000.00
3. 4 ZF Magnetorheological engine mounts on ME vs standard rubber composition engine mounts on FE C7 $2,000.00
4. ZF DCT Transaxle on ME vs 7sp manual or 8sp automatic with independent differential on FE C7 $10,000.00
5. 4.2L DOHC Two Stage Twin Turbo Charged V8, Gen6 LT7 5.5L DOHC Two Stage Twin Turbo Charged V8, New Gen6 LT2 6.2L OHV V8 as base engine on ME vs LT1, LT4, and LT5 on FE C7 $4,000.00
6. Integrated Intercoolers on ME vs separate intercoolers on C7 FE $500.00
7. Advanced high-pressure die-cast aluminum or magnesium structural ribbed chassis stiffeners, struts, and brackets on ME vs older generation tech on FE C7 chassis $1,000.00
8. Adaptive Aerodynamics or Active Aero as indicated in Patent Application and Zerv leaked CAD views on ME vs fixed aero components on FE C7 $3,000.00
9. Folding hardtop convertible on ME vs soft top convertible on FE C7 $6,000.00
10. Inconel tubular factory short headers on ME vs cast exhaust manifolds on FE C7 $1,000.00
11. Higher Carbon Fiber Body Panel Content on ME vs FE C7 $2,000.00
12. Precision Smooth Cast Alloy Intake Runners from Air Box to Two Stage Twin Turbochargers on ME vs none on LT1, LT4, and LT5 on FE C7 $1,000.00
13. Adjustable suspension(Front axle lift system) gaging by the pneumatic or hydraulic line apparently emanating from the bottom of the LF shock/spring assembly on ME vs none on FE C7 $2,000.00
14. Rear spoiler actuator to be piston style electronic actuator on ME vs Fixed aero on FE C7 $2,000.00
15. Dual Port and Direct injection system on ME engines vs Direct injection only on LT1 and LT4 of FE C7 $1,500.00
16. Digital Rear View Streaming Mirror/Camera will require a flat screen in dash on ME vs regular rear view mirror on FE C7 $1,000.00
17. Optional AKC ZF rear wheel steering unit on ME vs none on FE C7 $1,500.00
18. Optional State of the Art Bose Panaray Sound System on ME vs Standard Bose Sound System on FE C7 $2,000.00
19. AEB (automatic emergency braking) on ME vs none on FE C7 $500.00
20. BSP (blind spot protection) on ME vs none on FE C7 $500.00
21. Advanced mixed-material approach for the lightweight body structure on ME vs older tech on FE C7 $1,500.00
22. New Advanced Headlight and Taillight LED technologies on ME vs older generation lighting tech on FE C7 $500.00
23. FCA/FCW e.g. frontal collision avoidance/warning on ME vs none on FE C7 $500.00
24. Electro-Hydraulic Braking Assist on ME vs standard hydraulic on FE C7 $500.00
25. New ZF Steering Damper on ME vs standard on FE C7 $500.00
26. Swan Style(Aston Martin) upswing doors on ME vs standard door hinge arrangement on FE C7 $300.00
27. Possible electronically actuated manual transmission on ME vs standard manual on FE C7 $1,000.00
28. Potential Hybrid Drivetrain technology as indicated in GM Patent for ME vs none on FE C7 $3,000.00
29. Left and right hand drive for all markets worldwide on ME vs Left hand drive only on FE C7 $2,000.00
30. Potential of all wheel drive since GM has trademarked Sport Control AWD on ME vs rear wheel drive only on FE C7 $2,000.00
31. ZF electronic "Brake By Wire" system on ME vs standard Brake system on FE C7 $1,000.00
32. Higher Quality Interior standards on ME vs Interior Standards on FE C7 $5,000.00
Total $62,300.00
I'm estimating that $30,000.00 of the $62,300.00 will be directly attributable to the Base ME base price with the other $32,300.00 being optional add ons.
That puts the C8 ME Base price at approximately $85,000.00 to $90,000.00 where I've had it all along.
1. Enhanced and Stiffened 3 part modular Chassis with High pressure castings as seen on Zerv leaks $1,000.00
2. 4 Magnetorheological Coilover Shocks on ME vs 2 transverse leaf springs and 4 Shocks on FE C7 $2,000.00
3. 4 ZF Magnetorheological engine mounts on ME vs standard rubber composition engine mounts on FE C7 $2,000.00
4. ZF DCT Transaxle on ME vs 7sp manual or 8sp automatic with independent differential on FE C7 $10,000.00
5. 4.2L DOHC Two Stage Twin Turbo Charged V8, Gen6 LT7 5.5L DOHC Two Stage Twin Turbo Charged V8, New Gen6 LT2 6.2L OHV V8 as base engine on ME vs LT1, LT4, and LT5 on FE C7 $4,000.00
6. Integrated Intercoolers on ME vs separate intercoolers on C7 FE $500.00
7. Advanced high-pressure die-cast aluminum or magnesium structural ribbed chassis stiffeners, struts, and brackets on ME vs older generation tech on FE C7 chassis $1,000.00
8. Adaptive Aerodynamics or Active Aero as indicated in Patent Application and Zerv leaked CAD views on ME vs fixed aero components on FE C7 $3,000.00
9. Folding hardtop convertible on ME vs soft top convertible on FE C7 $6,000.00
10. Inconel tubular factory short headers on ME vs cast exhaust manifolds on FE C7 $1,000.00
11. Higher Carbon Fiber Body Panel Content on ME vs FE C7 $2,000.00
12. Precision Smooth Cast Alloy Intake Runners from Air Box to Two Stage Twin Turbochargers on ME vs none on LT1, LT4, and LT5 on FE C7 $1,000.00
13. Adjustable suspension(Front axle lift system) gaging by the pneumatic or hydraulic line apparently emanating from the bottom of the LF shock/spring assembly on ME vs none on FE C7 $2,000.00
14. Rear spoiler actuator to be piston style electronic actuator on ME vs Fixed aero on FE C7 $2,000.00
15. Dual Port and Direct injection system on ME engines vs Direct injection only on LT1 and LT4 of FE C7 $1,500.00
16. Digital Rear View Streaming Mirror/Camera will require a flat screen in dash on ME vs regular rear view mirror on FE C7 $1,000.00
17. Optional AKC ZF rear wheel steering unit on ME vs none on FE C7 $1,500.00
18. Optional State of the Art Bose Panaray Sound System on ME vs Standard Bose Sound System on FE C7 $2,000.00
19. AEB (automatic emergency braking) on ME vs none on FE C7 $500.00
20. BSP (blind spot protection) on ME vs none on FE C7 $500.00
21. Advanced mixed-material approach for the lightweight body structure on ME vs older tech on FE C7 $1,500.00
22. New Advanced Headlight and Taillight LED technologies on ME vs older generation lighting tech on FE C7 $500.00
23. FCA/FCW e.g. frontal collision avoidance/warning on ME vs none on FE C7 $500.00
24. Electro-Hydraulic Braking Assist on ME vs standard hydraulic on FE C7 $500.00
25. New ZF Steering Damper on ME vs standard on FE C7 $500.00
26. Swan Style(Aston Martin) upswing doors on ME vs standard door hinge arrangement on FE C7 $300.00
27. Possible electronically actuated manual transmission on ME vs standard manual on FE C7 $1,000.00
28. Potential Hybrid Drivetrain technology as indicated in GM Patent for ME vs none on FE C7 $3,000.00
29. Left and right hand drive for all markets worldwide on ME vs Left hand drive only on FE C7 $2,000.00
30. Potential of all wheel drive since GM has trademarked Sport Control AWD on ME vs rear wheel drive only on FE C7 $2,000.00
31. ZF electronic "Brake By Wire" system on ME vs standard Brake system on FE C7 $1,000.00
32. Higher Quality Interior standards on ME vs Interior Standards on FE C7 $5,000.00
Total $62,300.00
I'm estimating that $30,000.00 of the $62,300.00 will be directly attributable to the Base ME base price with the other $32,300.00 being optional add ons.
That puts the C8 ME Base price at approximately $85,000.00 to $90,000.00 where I've had it all along.
Will be ~$65k.
10-29-2018, 02:15 PM
#54
Race Director
It would be suicide for GM to make the base Vette at $85k to $90k. That would put it in direct competition with the Caymen GT4. . . And if GM made people have to choose between those two, I know which I would choose.
Even if the base price was $85k; that’s STILL $90k out the door w/ taxes title/fees/dest/etc.
That’s fairly far beyond the asymptotic point of the curve. GM is trying to market the car to a younger crowd. It would make zero sense to target a younger audience then to price them out. At the end of the day, these are business decisions.
Last edited by RandomTask; 10-30-2018 at 10:14 AM.
10-29-2018, 02:21 PM
#55
Melting Slicks
Good point on the younger buyers. Not many guys under 40 who can afford to buy an $80K sports car. That is compelling for continuation of the C7.5 which can easily be priced under $60K.
10-29-2018, 03:33 PM
#56
Race Director
Yup, speed dial. :roll eyes:
It would be suicide for GM to make the base Vette at $85k to $90k. That would put it in direct competition with the Caymen GT4. . . And if GM made people have to choose between those two, I know which I would choose.
Even if the base price was $85k; that’s STILL $90k out the door w/ taxes title/fees/dest/etc.
That’s fairly far beyond the asymptotic point of the curve. GM is trying to market the car to a younger crowd. It would make zero sense to target a younger audience then to price them out. At the end of the day, these are business decisions.
It would be suicide for GM to make the base Vette at $85k to $90k. That would put it in direct competition with the Caymen GT4. . . And if GM made people have to choose between those two, I know which I would choose.
Even if the base price was $85k; that’s STILL $90k out the door w/ taxes title/fees/dest/etc.
That’s fairly far beyond the asymptotic point of the curve. GM is trying to market the car to a younger crowd. It would make zero sense to target a younger audience then to price them out. At the end of the day, these are business decisions.
Leaving us with only 2 possibilities -- (1) C8 starts not much above $60K (considering you can buy a brand new base C7 today for $49K or so from the big volume guys even +$11K will be a stretch after all the excitement wears down in a year or so) or (2) they really do have a "2 Vette strategy" which, for purely selfish reasons, is what I am hoping for.
10-29-2018, 09:51 PM
#57
Melting Slicks
And perhaps more importantly is the question, what kind of cars are people under 40 looking for? My son who is 40 just bought a Tesla model 3 for $62k. He lives in southern California and he knows a lot of people who own Teslas' I suspect the only person he knows with a Corvette is his dad - me. Now he also has 2 kids so that also would make it problematic to have a 2 seater but for him and his circle of friends a Corvette would not even be on the radar. It would be suicide for GM to start the base at 85k.
10-30-2018, 10:26 AM
#58
Melting Slicks
And perhaps more importantly is the question, what kind of cars are people under 40 looking for? My son who is 40 just bought a Tesla model 3 for $62k. He lives in southern California and he knows a lot of people who own Teslas' I suspect the only person he knows with a Corvette is his dad - me. Now he also has 2 kids so that also would make it problematic to have a 2 seater but for him and his circle of friends a Corvette would not even be on the radar. It would be suicide for GM to start the base at 85k.
10-30-2018, 01:03 PM
#59
Burning Brakes
For the past several months I have been trumpeting the cost of the ME at or around Porsche 911 prices (~$90K starting price, $125K fully optioned), but have recently re-thought my logic. Porsche produces the Boxster and Cayman (both mid-engines) and the starting price is around $70K. I recently built a Boxster and optioned it that way I would like and it came out at $93K, certainly alot for a car that is not their flagship. But, Porsche has a reputation for inflated prices. That said, i am thinking $70K base for the C8, and around $85-90K optioned, with the base 6.2 Litre LT1 engine. Once the DOHC engines are added as options, expect the cost to increase $15-$25k depending on output, bringing the highest HP C8 to ~$125K, in line with the ZR-1. Just a guess, but's that's what we are all doing at this juncture...
10-30-2018, 01:13 PM
#60
Melting Slicks
For the past several months I have been trumpeting the cost of the ME at or around Porsche 911 prices (~$90K starting price, $125K fully optioned), but have recently re-thought my logic. Porsche produces the Boxster and Cayman (both mid-engines) and the starting price is around $70K. I recently built a Boxster and optioned it that way I would like and it came out at $93K, certainly alot for a car that is not their flagship. But, Porsche has a reputation for inflated prices. That said, i am thinking $70K base for the C8, and around $85-90K optioned, with the base 6.2 Litre LT1 engine. Once the DOHC engines are added as options, expect the cost to increase $15-$25k depending on output, bringing the highest HP C8 to ~$125K, in line with the ZR-1. Just a guess, but's that's what we are all doing at this juncture...