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Is there demand for a mid-engine Corvette?

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Is there demand for a mid-engine Corvette?

Old 11-03-2018, 09:13 AM
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Both JerriV. and LISting. make good points above esp. the possibility of price reductions and how utilitarian the Corvette is for most owners who work. Good points, gentlemen!

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Old 11-03-2018, 09:38 AM
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Good discussion. I think the initial demand for the C8 will be quite high if it is priced in that 60-70k range simply because nothing else would come close in price. Audi R8, Porsche 911s, Lambos, Ferraris all start over $100k.
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Old 11-03-2018, 09:40 AM
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no,, GM is just building it because their bored
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Old 11-03-2018, 10:06 AM
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I love Vettes old and new and look forward to the C8. Issue I see is the traditional stereotypical Vette enthusiast want front engine, V8 pushrod power. GM doesn't get it however they may have seen the light when they did the C7 ZO6 in convertible and automatics. I see more A8s then M7s out there.

They should be looking at V6 twin turbo and turbo diesel packages that will make the Vette lighter and better balanced
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Old 11-03-2018, 11:35 AM
  #45  
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Originally Posted by dmaxx3500 View Post
no,, GM is just building it because their bored
Sarcasm, love it. Although, there is probably some truth to your statement. If you are a top notch engineer at the plant, the C7 is probably yesterdays news (boring) and would probably be very excited to work on a redesign of America's most popular sports car.
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Old 11-03-2018, 11:57 AM
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A better question would be "is there demand for a Corvette?" The C7's success proves there is.

Engine location is simply one feature of the C8 Corvette. When the Corvette's transmission was moved to the rear, did anyone ask if there was demand for a rear tranny Corvette?
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Old 11-03-2018, 12:12 PM
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Originally Posted by Vega$Vette View Post
I love Vettes old and new and look forward to the C8. Issue I see is the traditional stereotypical Vette enthusiast want front engine, V8 pushrod power. GM doesn't get it however they may have seen the light when they did the C7 ZO6 in convertible and automatics. I see more A8s then M7s out there.

They should be looking at V6 twin turbo and turbo diesel packages that will make the Vette lighter and better balanced
I feel like people are so stuck on the weirdest things about the Corvette. The OHV LT small block Chevy engine in it's most modern interpretation is just as advanced at all the DOHC setups but provides more torque, less mass, lower center of gravity, less complexity, and better power per dollar than the competition. DOHC allows for higher revving engines, but you lose out on bottom end torque, which is one of the biggest draws of the Corvette, off idle grunt.

I don't think people are necessarily too concerned about where the engine is placed, we all know that for performance the mid engine layout is the best for chassis dynamics, it is literal science. I think the biggest gripe from the stereotypical buyers is cargo space and tail light shape. That said any deviation from the V8 would be met with pitchforks and violence, and I would be right there with them. I recognize the performance of the Ford GT, but I could care less about it due to it's crappy EcoTec V6. Exotics need to feel exotic in every aspect in my book, and that V6 has a grating engine note that is an embarrassment among the great exotics with V8's, V10's, and V12's. Sure it is sold out, but I feel like it is being hoarded as a potential collectors car in hopes that they can get a decent ROI.
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Old 11-03-2018, 01:38 PM
  #48  
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Originally Posted by falcon5619 View Post
Just curious if this is just an evolution of the Corvette or if in fact there is a bunch up pent up demand for a mid engine version of the car? ....Is it something the Corvette designers wanted to build for a long time but just never did so?
I have a different view of the “need for a ME.”

Yep as Zora said even Dr- Ing. Ferdinand Porsche knew the right place for an engine was in the middle! German race cars in the 1930’s had the engine in the middle. When he built the “people’s car” it had to be cheap and a rear air cooled engine fit the bill! His first sports car was based on that design because it was what they could afford!

IMO there is a “Need” for a ME but it’s GMs! The days of large cid pushrods V8’s is ending. To gain more efficiency a smaller DOHC engine where the intake and exhaust can be individually varied is needed. Turbocharging is a way to get the needed power from a small cid engine when your foot is on the floor but decent mpg when cruising. It recovers some of the 30% wasted heat going out the exhaust instead of using more energy as does a supercharger! Those engines are wide and high with all the “stuff” needed to make them work. Fitting in a front engine car is not viable. Yep the low polar moment of inertia will make great marketing material but GM’s “need” for higher corporate overall mpg is the driver, IMO.

Just look at the current Ford GT, DOHC, twin turbo 3.5 liter V6 producing 647 hp!

Whatever the reasons- it’s coming! Oh ya, so will Start/Stop and hopfully KERS as they have in F1! Yep love to have ~160 hp available for 10 to 20 seconds coming from a motor/generator attached to the tranxaxile! In F1 the system with battery weights ~60 pounds! Useful on every takeoff, even if just casually leaving a red light. That is where a lot of energy is used. Then we could also use some of the wasted energy braking! On average, about a 1/3 of the energy that does get to the rear wheels is wasted when braking! Why not recover some of it?

Just my $0.02!

Last edited by JerryU; 11-03-2018 at 01:45 PM.
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Old 11-03-2018, 01:54 PM
  #49  
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Originally Posted by JerryU View Post

I have a different view of the “need for a ME.”

Yep as Zora said even Dr- Ing. Ferdinand Porsche knew the right place for an engine was in the middle! German race cars in the 1930’s had the engine in the middle. When he built the “people’s car” it had to be cheap and a rear air cooled engine fit the bill! His first sports car was based on that design because it was what they could afford!

IMO there is a “Need” for a ME but it’s GMs! The days of large cid pushrods V8’s is ending. To gain more efficiency a smaller DOHC engine where the intake and exhaust can be individually varied is needed. Turbocharging is a way to get the needed power from a small cid engine when your foot is on the floor but decent mpg when cruising. It recovers some of the 30% wasted heat going out the exhaust instead of using more energy as does a supercharger! Those engines are wide and high with all the “stuff” needed to make them work. Fitting in a front engine car is not viable. Yep the low polar moment of inertia will make great marketing material but GM’s “need” for higher corporate overall mpg is the driver, IMO.

Just look at the current Ford GT, DOHC, twin turbo 3.5 liter V6 producing 647 hp!

Whatever the reasons- it’s coming! Oh ya, so will Start/Stop and hopfully KERS as they have in F1! Yep love to have ~160 hp available for 10 to 20 seconds coming from a motor/generator attached to the tranxaxile! In F1 the system with battery weights ~60 pounds! Useful on every takeoff, even if just casually leaving a red light. That is where a lot of energy is used. Then we could also use some of the wasted energy braking! On average, about a 1/3 of the energy that does get to the rear wheels is wasted when braking! Why not recover some of it?

Just my $0.02!
Good points JerryU. Thanks for sharing your perspective. I see first hand what you mean by the turbocharging perspective. I bought my son one of those new Honda Civics hatchbacks with a 1.5l turbo. That little engine averages over 30mpg with mostly city driving and it really scoots around town. That little 1.5l with the turbo makes it feel like a V6, not sound like one, but feel like one from a power perspective.
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Old 11-03-2018, 01:56 PM
  #50  
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Originally Posted by Supermassive View Post
I feel like people are so stuck on the weirdest things about the Corvette. The OHV LT small block Chevy engine in it's most modern interpretation is just as advanced at all the DOHC setups but provides more torque, less mass, lower center of gravity, less complexity, and better power per dollar than the competition. DOHC allows for higher revving engines, but you lose out on bottom end torque, which is one of the biggest draws of the Corvette, off idle grunt.

I don't think people are necessarily too concerned about where the engine is placed, we all know that for performance the mid engine layout is the best for chassis dynamics, it is literal science. I think the biggest gripe from the stereotypical buyers is cargo space and tail light shape. That said any deviation from the V8 would be met with pitchforks and violence, and I would be right there with them. I recognize the performance of the Ford GT, but I could care less about it due to it's crappy EcoTec V6. Exotics need to feel exotic in every aspect in my book, and that V6 has a grating engine note that is an embarrassment among the great exotics with V8's, V10's, and V12's. Sure it is sold out, but I feel like it is being hoarded as a potential collectors car in hopes that they can get a decent ROI.
Totally agree about the sound. The Corvette is a sensory car for me. Top down, rowing through the gears and V8 exhaust noises. If it didn't have those then I would buy something else that did.
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Old 11-03-2018, 02:01 PM
  #51  
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Originally Posted by JerryU View Post

I have a different view of the “need for a ME.”

Yep as Zora said even Dr- Ing. Ferdinand Porsche knew the right place for an engine was in the middle! German race cars in the 1930’s had the engine in the middle. When he built the “people’s car” it had to be cheap and a rear air cooled engine fit the bill! His first sports car was based on that design because it was what they could afford!

IMO there is a “Need” for a ME but it’s GMs! The days of large cid pushrods V8’s is ending. To gain more efficiency a smaller DOHC engine where the intake and exhaust can be individually varied is needed. Turbocharging is a way to get the needed power from a small cid engine when your foot is on the floor but decent mpg when cruising. It recovers some of the 30% wasted heat going out the exhaust instead of using more energy as does a supercharger! Those engines are wide and high with all the “stuff” needed to make them work. Fitting in a front engine car is not viable. Yep the low polar moment of inertia will make great marketing material but GM’s “need” for higher corporate overall mpg is the driver, IMO.

Just look at the current Ford GT, DOHC, twin turbo 3.5 liter V6 producing 647 hp!

Whatever the reasons- it’s coming! Oh ya, so will Start/Stop and hopfully KERS as they have in F1! Yep love to have ~160 hp available for 10 to 20 seconds coming from a motor/generator attached to the tranxaxile! In F1 the system with battery weights ~60 pounds! Useful on every takeoff, even if just casually leaving a red light. That is where a lot of energy is used. Then we could also use some of the wasted energy braking! On average, about a 1/3 of the energy that does get to the rear wheels is wasted when braking! Why not recover some of it?

Just my $0.02!
I keep wondering when GM will take the 3.6L engine from the Impala and Regal GS... Ect and slap on a turbo. I don't see why that wouldn't work on that engine.

Last edited by flyingbunnys; 11-03-2018 at 02:02 PM.
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Old 11-03-2018, 02:27 PM
  #52  
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Originally Posted by JerryU View Post

I have a different view of the “need for a ME.”

Yep as Zora said even Dr- Ing. Ferdinand Porsche knew the right place for an engine was in the middle! German race cars in the 1930’s had the engine in the middle. When he built the “people’s car” it had to be cheap and a rear air cooled engine fit the bill! His first sports car was based on that design because it was what they could afford!

IMO there is a “Need” for a ME but it’s GMs! The days of large cid pushrods V8’s is ending. To gain more efficiency a smaller DOHC engine where the intake and exhaust can be individually varied is needed. Turbocharging is a way to get the needed power from a small cid engine when your foot is on the floor but decent mpg when cruising. It recovers some of the 30% wasted heat going out the exhaust instead of using more energy as does a supercharger! Those engines are wide and high with all the “stuff” needed to make them work. Fitting in a front engine car is not viable. Yep the low polar moment of inertia will make great marketing material but GM’s “need” for higher corporate overall mpg is the driver, IMO.

Just look at the current Ford GT, DOHC, twin turbo 3.5 liter V6 producing 647 hp!

Whatever the reasons- it’s coming! Oh ya, so will Start/Stop and hopfully KERS as they have in F1! Yep love to have ~160 hp available for 10 to 20 seconds coming from a motor/generator attached to the tranxaxile! In F1 the system with battery weights ~60 pounds! Useful on every takeoff, even if just casually leaving a red light. That is where a lot of energy is used. Then we could also use some of the wasted energy braking! On average, about a 1/3 of the energy that does get to the rear wheels is wasted when braking! Why not recover some of it?

Just my $0.02!
I want pneumatic valves, screw ancient technology with cams and what not. Give me the ability to change between 4 stroke, 2 stroke, Atkinson, or Diesel on a whim!

Current F1 race cars use pneumatic valves and my favorite mad scientist Christian Von Koenigsegg is working on Freevalve, so the writing is on the wall.
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Old 11-03-2018, 04:52 PM
  #53  
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Originally Posted by Supermassive View Post
I want pneumatic valves, screw ancient technology with cams and what not.
Really would not like carring small bottles of 3000 psi nitrogen around!

Why not forget valve springs altogether and use cams to open and close the valves! Mercedes did it in 1954 with Desmodromic valve operation!

Last edited by JerryU; 11-03-2018 at 04:53 PM.
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Old 11-03-2018, 05:52 PM
  #54  
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Originally Posted by Supermassive View Post
I feel like people are so stuck on the weirdest things about the Corvette. The OHV LT small block Chevy engine in it's most modern interpretation is just as advanced at all the DOHC setups but provides more torque, less mass, lower center of gravity, less complexity, and better power per dollar than the competition. DOHC allows for higher revving engines, but you lose out on bottom end torque, which is one of the biggest draws of the Corvette, off idle grunt.

.
Funny, guess at 76 not old enough to think there is anything but a large cid pushrod V8!

In fact built an Olds engine from parts in 1959 when 17 and had the block bored 1/8 inches to fit ‘55 Olds piston to get 324 icd! With a “3/4 race cam” (as they were called in-the-day) and 4 barrel I modified, my ‘41 Ford coupe was very fast!

Loved the 265 cid small block V8 in my 1956 Chevy. And I agree GM has done a heck of an engineering job getting 460 NA net hp from the 376 cid LT1. Zora be would proud as getting 1 gross hp/cubic inch was his early goal.

However only about 15% of the energy in gasoline gets to the rear wheels. Of that about 1/3 on average goes into heat from braking! We can do better. Smaller cid engines with turbochargers can get the same power (or more) when needed and have less friction when cruising. With a pushrod single cam V8 can’t vary the intake and exhaust separately to get optimum efficiency at low and high rpm. A turbo uses some of the ~30% heat (energy) that goes out the exhaust to increase power. Sure a supercharger can increase power but it takes power to turn it!

Although I will miss a stanadard shift (the C8 will be my first DD in ~60 years without one) that dual clutch computer controlled spur gear Tremic trans will keep the C8 engine rpm in the optimum/rpm range. Perhaps I’ll need to use the paddles but hoping GM will offer a fly by wire “shifter” control to let me pick what gear I want when.

BTW have a 502 cid BB Chevy in my 1934 ProStreet Rod so if I want stump pulling torque can always take it out! However the way it’s geared it only gets ~10 mpg!






Last edited by JerryU; 11-03-2018 at 07:27 PM.
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Old 11-04-2018, 09:10 AM
  #55  
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Originally Posted by JerryU View Post
Whatever the reasons- it’s coming! Oh ya, so will Start/Stop
Just my $0.02!
Do you have any experience with start-stop?
I can't stand it to the point that I won't buy a car that doesn't have an off switch for it.
And as far as saving money - it seems not to: I know many people who have it and at least around urban NYC, where the thing cycles maybe 10-20x per hour in traffic, the starter seem to last no more than 35,000 miles and costs about $450-650 to be replaced, which is significantly more than the claimed 10% better fuel economy would put in your pocket.
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Old 11-04-2018, 09:18 AM
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Without a doubt there is a demand. I hope that GM does things a bit different with it though by releasing the beast aka ZR1/Zora or whatever they want to call it first and then the lesser models later.
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Old 11-04-2018, 09:36 AM
  #57  
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I would say that there is a demand, maybe a large demand depending on the price...If the ME is 100k or more, way less demand than if the entry price was say 65k
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Old 11-04-2018, 09:42 AM
  #58  
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Originally Posted by Supermassive View Post
I want pneumatic valves, screw ancient technology with cams and what not. Give me the ability to change between 4 stroke, 2 stroke, Atkinson, or Diesel on a whim!

Current F1 race cars use pneumatic valves and my favorite mad scientist Christian Von Koenigsegg is working on Freevalve, so the writing is on the wall.
Pneumatic valve springs are metal bellows filled with compressed air occupying roughly the same space of metal springs used to close valves only in high-speed revving internal combustion engines. F1 cars have regular cam shafts. Koenigsegg knows Dick sh one t about a car's dynamics especially aerodynamics.
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Old 11-04-2018, 09:51 AM
  #59  
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Originally Posted by Supermassive View Post
I feel like people are so stuck on the weirdest things about the Corvette. The OHV LT small block Chevy engine in it's most modern interpretation is just as advanced at all the DOHC setups but provides more torque, less mass, lower center of gravity, less complexity, and better power per dollar than the competition. DOHC allows for higher revving engines, but you lose out on bottom end torque, which is one of the biggest draws of the Corvette, off idle grunt.

I don't think people are necessarily too concerned about where the engine is placed, we all know that for performance the mid engine layout is the best for chassis dynamics, it is literal science. I think the biggest gripe from the stereotypical buyers is cargo space and tail light shape. That said any deviation from the V8 would be met with pitchforks and violence, and I would be right there with them. I recognize the performance of the Ford GT, but I could care less about it due to it's crappy EcoTec V6. Exotics need to feel exotic in every aspect in my book, and that V6 has a grating engine note that is an embarrassment among the great exotics with V8's, V10's, and V12's. Sure it is sold out, but I feel like it is being hoarded as a potential collectors car in hopes that they can get a decent ROI.
The supercharged DOHC in my Mercedes has a 5,800 RPM redline. The 7L OHV in my C6 Z06 has a 7,000 RPM redline.

In town, my Mercedes gets better gas mileage. On the highway, my Z06 gets better gas mileage.

Last edited by JoesC5; 11-04-2018 at 09:54 AM.
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Old 11-04-2018, 10:13 AM
  #60  
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Originally Posted by JerryU View Post

I have a different view of the “need for a ME.”

Yep as Zora said even Dr- Ing. Ferdinand Porsche knew the right place for an engine was in the middle! German race cars in the 1930’s had the engine in the middle. When he built the “people’s car” it had to be cheap and a rear air cooled engine fit the bill! His first sports car was based on that design because it was what they could afford!

IMO there is a “Need” for a ME but it’s GMs! The days of large cid pushrods V8’s is ending. To gain more efficiency a smaller DOHC engine where the intake and exhaust can be individually varied is needed. Turbocharging is a way to get the needed power from a small cid engine when your foot is on the floor but decent mpg when cruising. It recovers some of the 30% wasted heat going out the exhaust instead of using more energy as does a supercharger! Those engines are wide and high with all the “stuff” needed to make them work. Fitting in a front engine car is not viable. Yep the low polar moment of inertia will make great marketing material but GM’s “need” for higher corporate overall mpg is the driver, IMO.

Just look at the current Ford GT, DOHC, twin turbo 3.5 liter V6 producing 647 hp!

Whatever the reasons- it’s coming! Oh ya, so will Start/Stop and hopfully KERS as they have in F1! Yep love to have ~160 hp available for 10 to 20 seconds coming from a motor/generator attached to the tranxaxile! In F1 the system with battery weights ~60 pounds! Useful on every takeoff, even if just casually leaving a red light. That is where a lot of energy is used. Then we could also use some of the wasted energy braking! On average, about a 1/3 of the energy that does get to the rear wheels is wasted when braking! Why not recover some of it?

Just my $0.02!
An electric motor used for accelerating the car is not needed in order to have regenerative braking.

I'm looking at maybe getting a 2019 Audi A7. It is not a "hot rod" but does have a turbo 3.0L V6 with 340 HP and 369 TQ with a 7 speed DCT. None of that horsepower is supplied by an electric motor. It does have a 48 volt primary electrical system and has regenerative braking using a belt alternator starter.


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