$169,900, final price confirmed
11-12-2018, 09:01 AM
#721
~
I don't see them incompatible at all!
Can see the base C8 selling in the $75,000 to $80,000 range (mid ~$60,000 at Kerbeck) while the high end ZR1 type with it's ~700 hp small cid, double overhead cam, dual large turbos producing 700 hp (the current Ford GT has a 3.5 Liter V6, dual turbo engine producing 647 hp) will sell for the $169,000 predicted on this thread. That will require wider than the 305 section width tires that were on the C8 in Germany, which will require wider fenders. Suspect the aero will be adjustable based on speed so it doesn't have to look like the current ZR1 "boy racer" when parked! So those paying more will not see many other cars that look like theirs!
Yep the high cost variant will have real leather interior (not ground up McDonald cow hide scraps made "leather like.") Maybe even seats that both cool and heat properly as an option. Perhaps motorized tuck in mirrors!
Perhaps that ~700 hp will be partially supplied by a F1 KERS type system that produces 160 hp (for a short time) with an electric motor/generator and also provides some braking energy recovery. In F1 that system with battery reportedly weights only ~60 pounds.
Note the $169,000 price is also partly to limit demand for that higher hp lower mpg engine! Easily controlled by GM with price!
I don't see them incompatible at all!
Can see the base C8 selling in the $75,000 to $80,000 range (mid ~$60,000 at Kerbeck) while the high end ZR1 type with it's ~700 hp small cid, double overhead cam, dual large turbos producing 700 hp (the current Ford GT has a 3.5 Liter V6, dual turbo engine producing 647 hp) will sell for the $169,000 predicted on this thread. That will require wider than the 305 section width tires that were on the C8 in Germany, which will require wider fenders. Suspect the aero will be adjustable based on speed so it doesn't have to look like the current ZR1 "boy racer" when parked! So those paying more will not see many other cars that look like theirs!
Yep the high cost variant will have real leather interior (not ground up McDonald cow hide scraps made "leather like.") Maybe even seats that both cool and heat properly as an option. Perhaps motorized tuck in mirrors!
Perhaps that ~700 hp will be partially supplied by a F1 KERS type system that produces 160 hp (for a short time) with an electric motor/generator and also provides some braking energy recovery. In F1 that system with battery reportedly weights only ~60 pounds.
Note the $169,000 price is also partly to limit demand for that higher hp lower mpg engine! Easily controlled by GM with price!
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JerryU (11-12-2018)
11-12-2018, 09:07 AM
#722
Drifting
I believe the roadmap is OHV V8 --> DOHC V8 Turbo (NA variant?) --> hybrid DOHC V8 (+/- turbo?) --> EV. A V6 turbo in a Corvette is a dubious proposition, especially since GM's V6 turbos to date have had similar or worse mpg than equivalently powerful pushrod V8s.
MPG of GM's alpha platform cars of similar weight (city, highway, combined).
ATS V 3.6TT V6: 17, 25, 20
Camaro SS 6.2 V8: 16, 27, 20
GM's new DOHC V8 "Blackwing" architecture should have more impressive economy in the lighter C8.
11-12-2018, 10:38 AM
#723
Melting Slicks
You can be sure that a C7 bandwidth of $56,590.00 net price - $150,000.00 optioned out ZR1 will be upstaged by the new mid engined ZORA. The base ZORA will be significantly higher than the base $56,590.00 Stingray and the top ZORA will also be significantly higher than the ZR1. That in effect will protect investment value within competing Corvette models.
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alienranch (11-12-2018),
PCMIII (11-12-2018)
11-12-2018, 11:48 AM
#724
E-Ray, 3LZ, ZER, LIFT
Member Since: Sep 2007
Location: NE South Carolina
Posts: 29,451
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I believe the roadmap is OHV V8 --> DOHC V8 Turbo (NA variant?) --> hybrid DOHC V8 (+/- turbo?) --> EV. A V6 turbo in a Corvette is a dubious proposition, especially since GM's V6 turbos to date have had similar or worse mpg than equivalently powerful pushrod V8s.
MPG of GM's alpha platform cars of similar weight (city, highway, combined).
ATS V 3.6TT V6: 17, 25, 20
Camaro SS 6.2 V8: 16, 27, 20
GM's new DOHC V8 "Blackwing" architecture should have more impressive economy in the lighter C8.
MPG of GM's alpha platform cars of similar weight (city, highway, combined).
ATS V 3.6TT V6: 17, 25, 20
Camaro SS 6.2 V8: 16, 27, 20
GM's new DOHC V8 "Blackwing" architecture should have more impressive economy in the lighter C8.
Not that one could put an F1 engine in a passenger car but it shows what can be accomplished, >800 hp from a turbocharged 1.6 Liter V6 before you add the 160 hp from KERS. That is almost 4 times smaller than our 6.2 Liter C7 V8s. Much less friction when cruising. (Unlike most race car series have to give F1 credit for pushing engine efficiency. They no longer allow refueling and are using half the gas and besting lap times on the same tracks where they had 3 Liter V 10s.)
An I agree evolution is fine when there is time. But electronics and software advance at very high speeds. Car companies have to move fast or get passed. Yep Chevy did a great job of engineering evolving from the 265 cid small block in my ‘56 Chevy to the LT1. They did get caught in the ‘73/‘74 time frame when they weren’t ready to meet the EPA challenges. Heck I bought a 260Z which was only a bit better losing only ~3hp from the 240Z the year before. The max hp small block power in 1973/74 was 250 and 2 years prior you could order a 330 hp with the same size small block!
Yep evolution can work in some cases but I’m expecting a stepped change in the C8 to show GM leadership!
Last edited by JerryU; 11-12-2018 at 12:03 PM.
11-12-2018, 12:20 PM
#725
You can be sure that a C7 bandwidth of $56,590.00 net price - $150,000.00 optioned out ZR1 will be upstaged by the new mid engined ZORA. The base ZORA will be significantly higher than the base $56,590.00 Stingray and the top ZORA will also be significantly higher than the ZR1. That in effect will protect investment value within competing Corvette models.
I agree there will be several different ME variants, and a very big price spread as performance goes up in each variant. However, the vast majority believe what multiple inside sources have relayed to numerous folks, including me, that the base ME will be within 10% of the base C7, and so on up the ladder. Once we get to the "uber version," it wouldn't surprise me if that was quite a bit more than the current ZR1.
Last edited by Foosh; 11-12-2018 at 12:43 PM.
11-12-2018, 01:13 PM
#726
Melting Slicks
You seem to be changing your tune quite a bit here. Previously, you and your favorite disciple (PCM) were suggesting that the entry-level ME would exceed the price of the current ZR1.
I agree there will be several different ME variants, and a very big price spread as performance goes up in each variant. However, the vast majority believe what multiple inside sources have relayed to numerous folks, including me, that the base ME will be within 10% of the base C7, and so on up the ladder.
I agree there will be several different ME variants, and a very big price spread as performance goes up in each variant. However, the vast majority believe what multiple inside sources have relayed to numerous folks, including me, that the base ME will be within 10% of the base C7, and so on up the ladder.
11-12-2018, 01:24 PM
#727
OK, your disciple PCM did predict the base ME would cost more than the ZR1, which is exactly why I challenged him to a bet he wouldn't take. There's so much noise in here, it's hard to keep it straight. For all I know, he's heading back now to edit that post, but I'm not going to waste my time checking.
However, you have changed your position because you voted "Over $100K" in the poll on the starting price for the ME. Your screen name is right there for all to see. Only about 8% of nearly 400 voters agreed with that. You also said I'd lose my bet which is that the entry-level car will not cost over $121K, which is the current base price for the ZR1. Make up your mind.
On the rest, I think you're completely wrong, and continuous repetition of the same wild speculation isn't going to convince anyone, except PCM and a few others. I'm just repeating what multiple GM insiders have conveyed to various reliable forum members, which was within 10% of current base C7 MSRP.
I've been around long enough to know which forum members can be trusted to relay accurate information, and which ones just generally blow smoke and engage in wild speculation. We'll see . . .
However, you have changed your position because you voted "Over $100K" in the poll on the starting price for the ME. Your screen name is right there for all to see. Only about 8% of nearly 400 voters agreed with that. You also said I'd lose my bet which is that the entry-level car will not cost over $121K, which is the current base price for the ZR1. Make up your mind.
On the rest, I think you're completely wrong, and continuous repetition of the same wild speculation isn't going to convince anyone, except PCM and a few others. I'm just repeating what multiple GM insiders have conveyed to various reliable forum members, which was within 10% of current base C7 MSRP.
I've been around long enough to know which forum members can be trusted to relay accurate information, and which ones just generally blow smoke and engage in wild speculation. We'll see . . .
Last edited by Foosh; 11-12-2018 at 01:45 PM.
11-12-2018, 01:30 PM
#728
Melting Slicks
Not to derail the thread, but also something really cool I cam across today, it looks like Dodge is trying to get back into the game, resurrecting the viper, but with a V8 this time.
Rumors swirling around that we may catch a glimpse of a concept at the 2019 naias of their upcoming car.
Gotta admit that's one nice car. If the price is right, the C8 is going to have some competition.
https://www.caranddriver.com/feature...gend-is-reborn
Rumors swirling around that we may catch a glimpse of a concept at the 2019 naias of their upcoming car.
Gotta admit that's one nice car. If the price is right, the C8 is going to have some competition.
https://www.caranddriver.com/feature...gend-is-reborn
As a two-time Gen V Viper owner, active member of one of the largest regional Viper clubs, and guy who keeps his ear to the ground from the people who do know what's going on - this has already been disproved ad nauseam. Every single Viper owner who's in-the-know with the demise in 2017 knows this article goes against everything stated in on-and-off the record conversations with Ralph Gilles. Far too many reasons to explain why this isn't happening any time soon. Please keep the Viper false rumors in the Viper forums.
11-12-2018, 01:34 PM
#729
Race Director
Yep Chevy did a great job of engineering evolving from the 265 cid small block in my ‘56 Chevy to the LT1. They did get caught in the ‘73/‘74 time frame when they weren’t ready to meet the EPA challenges. Heck I bought a 260Z which was only a bit better losing only ~3hp from the 240Z the year before. The max hp small block power in 1973/74 was 250 and 2 years prior you could order a 330 hp with the same size small block!
The hp loss in that era, early 70’s, was due to two items, drop in compression to accommodate unleaded gas and a change in hp rating systems from gross to net hp. That 330 in 71 was gross, all years after were net.
In 75 there was a big drop due to emissions when they added the catalytic converters and went to single exhaust.
Last edited by Tom73; 11-12-2018 at 01:39 PM.
11-12-2018, 01:34 PM
#730
Melting Slicks
OK, your disciple PCM did, which is exactly why I challenged him to a bet he wouldn't take. There's so much noise in here, it's hard to keep it straight.
However, you have changed your position because you voted "Over $100K" in the poll on the starting price for the ME. Your screen name is right there for all to see. Only about 8% of nearly 400 voters agreed with that.
On the rest, I think you're completely wrong, and continuous repetition of the same wild speculation isn't going to convince anyone, except PCM and a few others. We'll see . . .
However, you have changed your position because you voted "Over $100K" in the poll on the starting price for the ME. Your screen name is right there for all to see. Only about 8% of nearly 400 voters agreed with that.
On the rest, I think you're completely wrong, and continuous repetition of the same wild speculation isn't going to convince anyone, except PCM and a few others. We'll see . . .
Last edited by skank; 11-12-2018 at 01:38 PM.
11-12-2018, 02:24 PM
#731
Melting Slicks
Not to derail the thread, but also something really cool I cam across today, it looks like Dodge is trying to get back into the game, resurrecting the viper, but with a V8 this time.
Rumors swirling around that we may catch a glimpse of a concept at the 2019 naias of their upcoming car.
Gotta admit that's one nice car. If the price is right, the C8 is going to have some competition.
https://www.caranddriver.com/feature...gend-is-reborn
Rumors swirling around that we may catch a glimpse of a concept at the 2019 naias of their upcoming car.
Gotta admit that's one nice car. If the price is right, the C8 is going to have some competition.
https://www.caranddriver.com/feature...gend-is-reborn
As a two-time Gen V Viper owner, active member of one of the largest regional Viper clubs, and guy who keeps his ear to the ground from the people who do know what's going on - this has already been disproved ad nauseam. Every single Viper owner who's in-the-know with the demise in 2017 knows this article goes against everything stated in on-and-off the record conversations with Ralph Gilles. Far too many reasons to explain why this isn't happening any time soon. Please keep the Viper false rumors in the Viper forums.
Last edited by tcinla; 11-12-2018 at 02:52 PM.
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alienranch (11-12-2018)
11-12-2018, 02:33 PM
#732
The primary reason was the paint shop and virtually all that new square footage is the paint shop. They want to be able to offer more colors. They also needed to greatly extend the length of the lines for curing paint and SMC panels. In the old plant, panels and paint were cured at much higher temps given the cramped space, which contributed to both OP and SMC panel distortion. The long lines of the new plant allows curing of both at much reduced temperature, which is the primary reason, along with state-of-the-art robots, that most find the new finishes and panels to be much improved. They'll likely be even better on the new car as the facility comes fully up to speed.
Meanwhile the old paint shop space can be used for things like moving the GM Performance Engine Build Center from Wixom, MI to BGA. The above explanations have been published time and time again here, and explained by plant engineers.
Obviously, GM also planned for future expansion. It's much cheaper to build more space than you currently need to plan for future growth than it is to build just enough, and keep adding just enough later. Big manufacturers plan 30 years in the future for contingencies, and the future is far from clear. They may not always build Corvettes there, and that large new space can be repurposed for whatever comes.
Last edited by Foosh; 11-12-2018 at 03:07 PM.
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11-12-2018, 03:20 PM
#735
Drifting
I don’t get hung up on needing 8 cylinders as some. Would be happy with 6 or a 1.6 Liter V 12 like the early Colombo eniges that did well for Ferrari and sounded great!
Not that one could put an F1 engine in a passenger car but it shows what can be accomplished, >800 hp from a turbocharged 1.6 Liter V6 before you add the 160 hp from KERS. That is almost 4 times smaller than our 6.2 Liter C7 V8s. Much less friction when cruising. (Unlike most race car series have to give F1 credit for pushing engine efficiency. They no longer allow refueling and are using half the gas and besting lap times on the same tracks where they had 3 Liter V 10s.)
An I agree evolution is fine when there is time. But electronics and software advance at very high speeds. Car companies have to move fast or get passed. Yep Chevy did a great job of engineering evolving from the 265 cid small block in my ‘56 Chevy to the LT1. They did get caught in the ‘73/‘74 time frame when they weren’t ready to meet the EPA challenges. Heck I bought a 260Z which was only a bit better losing only ~3hp from the 240Z the year before. The max hp small block power in 1973/74 was 250 and 2 years prior you could order a 330 hp with the same size small block!
Yep evolution can work in some cases but I’m expecting a stepped change in the C8 to show GM leadership!
But given GM's hybrid and EV expertise I expect the stepped change to be a hybrid C8, followed by a a paradigm change to an EV C9. I do know that in the 2023 - 24 time frame GM will introduce an EV sports car, but it will not be a Corvette. I've no idea what it will be, but my guess is Cadillac's halo car. Whatever it is, I'm buying it. I drove my friend's Tesla Roadster and the effortless torque of the electric motor is insanely addictive.
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JerryU (11-12-2018)
11-12-2018, 03:31 PM
#736
Have you ever been in a large manufacturing facility? It easily takes 4 conventional stories to accommodate overhead conveyors, lift systems, air filtration, HVAC, paint robots, ovens, power-supply, and any number of other complex systems.
Last edited by Foosh; 11-12-2018 at 03:39 PM.
11-12-2018, 03:45 PM
#737
Race Director
I agree with that but those are 2 or 3 stories tall without separate floors, just a huge empty space with a roof over them. The pics of the BGA while the addition was under construction clearly showed a full size basement (looking two stories tall) and two full separate floors above ground level.
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skank (11-12-2018)
11-12-2018, 03:52 PM
#738
Wow, over 780 replies and over 58,000 views on this thread.
I'm pretty astonished that ANYONE will take the OP seriously.
I bet my entire 401k and the entire CF community's 401k that the MSRP will be far lower than 169k. OP is either delusional or just a troll.
I'm pretty astonished that ANYONE will take the OP seriously.
I bet my entire 401k and the entire CF community's 401k that the MSRP will be far lower than 169k. OP is either delusional or just a troll.
11-12-2018, 03:58 PM
#739
Only about 8% believe that exorbitant number for the base car, although a version that takes ZR1 performance to the next level could get there. The majority of the posts here are attempts to convince some dreamers that they are being delusional and/or their notions are devoid of economic and marketing logic. I have found this thread very entertaining, and obviously many others are getting a good laugh out it.
Last edited by Foosh; 11-12-2018 at 04:02 PM.
11-12-2018, 04:04 PM
#740
Le Mans Master
