JerryU

^^^

Hmm, not saying GM Corporate culture wasn't very arrogant in the day, when their feeling was, "As goes GM so goes..." - but they have gotten much better.

Was on the Board of our German Company- talk about Nationalism as to cars purchased, at least at that time!

LT1 Z51

You guys are all assuming large volumes, which I don't think are guaranteed. Porsche has volume (globally), and the prices on their models are not in the sub-Z06 price range. Realistically Porsche at base prices does not include options that GM will include as default, mostly in terms of "comfort" electronics (like infotainment, or clusters). Also Porsche is really the floor for ME cars if we remove Alfa Romeo from the equation. GM you can imagine would want to stay under the 911 price, but really they don't need to go much lower to be the price leader (which I would think is their goal). Does GM look at the Cayman in terms of pricing, I don't think they do.

I also think anyone who thinks this car can cost less than $80k and not be a loss leader hasn't really thought this through. The ME will sell in Z06/ZR1 numbers at best. Corvette can make the volume (in the US) currently because of the base cars. But if you are going to lose money on those cars why build them. I don't think money can be made at the lower price and volume does not get you out of material cost, or difficult manufacturing processes (in fact volume makes those things more expensive).

The people I know at GM have told me the exotic materials that the car (the sub-frame is quite impressive from what I hear), and that the Ferrari 458 and 488 were benchmark. GM even bought a second engine, and attempted to figure out things by placing it on a dyno. So I'm thinking the raw material cost and manufacturing difficulty is greatly increased for the ME versus the FE car.

Further, there just isn't any data industry wide that says the ME car can be sold for the same price as the FE car, other than comments by Bob Lutz (which are now almost 10 years old), and some people who say GM has internally said this. Some of that talk, in my opinion, is how you get the financing side of the house to buy off on the project. I've seen it done, at a component level before. Estimated cost at the beginning of a program and actual cost once a car launches are usually not the same, and nearly universally increases. I mean you guys are free to disagree, I just don't think your stance is any more firmly grounded than many of those arguing against you. Lots of assumptions are being taken on both sides.

skank

Spot on LT1 Z51

hunter105

I have heard from my dealer and dealers were invited to a GM seminar about the C8 and nothing about the $169000 was mentioned pertaining to the C8. But a mid engine Cadillac with a solid convertible roof was mentioned. It was said to top out at the high $150000.The first C8'S rolling off the production line would be a large amount of 1LT' S. Also the Front engine C7 will continue to be built until 2020. After the release of the base cars Chevy will slowly start producing a 2LT and 3LT models. Then a GS and a Z06 model. Months ago there was a guy who said he knew a guy who was a GM engineer and he was told that the highest end mid engine would be a Cadillac. Well I would say he was correct do not be shocked if the Cadillac midengined car is also in the cards. Base models will range from $63000 to $66000.The base car will have the Cadillac 4.2 twin turbo. I also forgot to mention the Cadillac will also come as a Hybrid with a v8 and electric assist like the BMW i8 which would put out around 800HP. Also under consideration is a full electric!!!!!!!!!!!!!!.

JerryU

Hmm, question some of those thoughts:

"Loss leaders went out as a marketing approach years ago! (Although when I was in high school and worked part time in Shop Rite, which was a pure franchise then, we beat the heck out of the national food chains by looking at their weekly ads before ours were printed! At times gave gallon ice cream free coupons in the flyer, "we just tossed those coupons in the store!" Recall in the 1980's I was told to stop using the word synergistic to justify the welding hardgoods/filler metals business to support the extremely profitable Argon shielding gas business! : No halo car to promote trucks- all must stand on their own!)

Don't see exotic materials needed! The C6 Z06 had magnesium cradles! The C7 uses hollow aluminum castings that are 20 to 25% lighter than the forged aluminum ones used for most C6's. The C8 will probably use those, at least in the front! The C7 seat frame is magnesium but that is not a big deal nor that costly! I see no reason why the C8 frame can't be made just like the C7 frame as now in Bowling Green from 10 castings, 38 extrusions, 76 stampings and 3 hydroformed members all optimized for strength and rigidity where needed and welded together mostly by the robots that do it now.

A smaller cid engine will be lighter and if some of the components are used on some high volume GM cars or trucks could be low cost. Heck perhaps the base engine will be the one they are putting in the Silverado in 2019, a 2.7 Liter turbocharged L4 with 320 hp! (Hmm, thinking about that possibility it could be upscaled to an inline 6 and ratio for 4 Liter cid to the 2.7 would produce 475 hp! The 1953 Vette had an L6 so it fits the traditionalists! OK for all the old timers make it a 4 liter V8 so they can tell their friends it's got a V8- like the Hemi folks!)

GM is going to smaller cid turbocharged engines, like the rest of the world -some will just have to get over the issue! Remember that F1 1.6 Liter V6 gets >800 hp using gasoline before the extra 160 hp battery power boost! They are turning faster times than in the past with twice the mpg so no refueling allowed!

C7ZO6

Ryan427

This is all I have to add to this thread. Carry on.

range96

If real, this is BIG news!!!

hunter105

It is real and by the way no Detroit Auto Show reveal. All new mid engines will be revealed at the NY CITY AUTO SHOW!!!!!!!

Zaro Tundov

Yeah it's still pretty bad. I work with some of the managers and they're convinced that their products are superior to anything else out there. That may be so with the Corvette, but let's keep it real - GM makes a lot of products that wouldn't survive except for the "Buy American" sentiment. And many of those products are stupidly non-competitive because of a few bad decisions made by management.

hunter105

I forgot to mention Cadillac is also considering a full electric model. They are also working on a v8 and electric motor assist. The Cadillac Hybrid V8 and electric would put out around 800 HP.

rmorin1249

​​​​​​Great Britain and Ireland are in Europe even though GB is leaving the EU. What about Australia and Japan? RHD is the standard in these countries.
A world car implies it will be available in a lot of countries around the globe. I doubt the C8 will be.

Zaro Tundov

Both GM and Toyota have experience in designing and manufacturing inexpensive mid-engine cars.

I'm not sure why Lutz's comment would age poorly. What has happened in the last ten years that would make a mid-engine car more expensive to manufacture?

LT1 Z51

Safety/Regulatory versus Performance Goals. The number one cause of weight increase in the industry is due to Safety, and not just in crash structures. Cameras and Electronics are all adding to weight, causing packaging difficulties, and increasing complexity of cars. To offset this manufacturers have to remove weight other places. Either through creative engineering or exotic materials. Remember as well that part cost, including aftermarket part cost is only part of a cars value equation. Engineering costs and Manufacturing costs are usually lump sum paid and not in a piece cost, but still are amortized over the volume of a car to effect profit/loss. While many of these are one time nature payment, if a part requires lots of new equipment, or has issues do to the way it needs to be manufactured (dedicated line for example) these costs are not contained in the piece cost. Also some of the manufacturing costs double and triple as volume increases. If one line can't support the production of a part, a second line needs to be created, which is another large investment that unless volume doubles isn't amortized as efficiently. A good example was a recent article on why the AMG GT transmission versus the Ford GT transmission has a $5000 part cost difference, and remember that doesn't include anything I've talked about above, you'd have to infer that those costs are also just as drastic.

Basically, everything done in the previous decade doesn't apply now. You see things like the BRZ/GT86 and the Z4/Supra happening for a reason, you see the GM/Ford Transmission development sharing for a reason. These aren't happening because it's cheap to make new parts. Corvette, as an FE car historically has gotten to "write" off a lot of costs over time because of the sharing of parts (or even control modules) with a Camaro, or even the Trucks (engine and transmission parts and development sharing can significantly lower the costs of those major part). I don't see this transitioning over to the ME, since I think they are going for the performance they need to offset the regulatory and safety factors they need to meet.

Another example of this, and what could apply to the ME to support the viewpoint that I don't share, would be that the ME reuses parts from other cars in the suspension or other expensive components. In the latest issue of Vette Magazine, there was a story on how Duntov got the IRS for the C2 by saving money and using "stock" GM parts to do the front suspension on the C2, thereby saving money to allow funding of the IRS rear end. So this is actually key to the comments that Lutz made last decade. Remember kappa (Solstice and Sky), it was a parts platform reusing MANY GM corporate parts, in weird and new ways. The original Viper over at Chrysler was very similar. The question you have to ask yourself, will they make the sacrifices to use parts bin items to save cost, or will they engineer lots of very specific components to maximize performance knowing that these components can't trickle down to lesser platforms like they have in the past.

The implications of this are huge, not just for the Corvette, but also for the Camaro. The Camaro has effectively campaigned against the Mustang because it gets a lot of hand me down parts and technology from the Corvette. The Mustang on the other hand has to fund its own development entirely.

skank

LT1 Z51, this is so good to have you on this forum. There are so many on this forum that are in a state of denial on the subjects that you are talking about. Great logic that only comes from your life's work within the Automotive Manufacturing business.

USA1 427

I have nothing to say. I just came here to laugh at the title of this thread.

And to read what others think. It's all speculation, just like every generation. Nobody is going to know anything until it's released.

pietro c7

NineVettes

I don't come to this part of the forum very often, but when I do, I can't help to laugh when I see many of these posts: Let's see:
1. The base LT?, 1LT ME is gonna cost $59,999
2. The ME is gonna cost $169,000
3. The base ME is gonna be a "Supercar"
4. I know a guy, who knows a guy whose sister used to date a guy who works for GM and he says "fill in the blanks here" so it must be true
5. The BG Plant is a lot bigger because pick one: (1) they need a lot more room to properly paint cars (2) they are gonna build a Corvette CUV (3) they are gonna build the existing FE and the new ME together (4) they are gonna build the ME and a follow-on FE together (5) they are gonna only build a lot of MEs
6. The real reason for the ME is that GM needs to achieve much better fuel economy and this can only be done with smaller DOHC engines or hybrid technology
7. The old front/mid engine layout is maxed out at 755 h/p - and therefore we need to go ME for 1000 h/p cars (makes sense for pro racing cred, pretty ridiculous for the street)
8. The ME will be revealed in December...or January....or March....not until the last C7 is sold
on and on....

So the reason why I even bother to post here was the post I quoted. Uncommonly logical, and apparently based upon some analysis, evidently backed up by some firsthand knowledge of the general development process. Refreshing and rare.

Full disclosure here: I own a '19 M7 Z06, my 10th Vette.

John T

Hunter105, just thinking out loud about some of Zora.Info 's remarks--- I was flabbergasted when ZI ultimately said that he was just kidding. I mean who does this stuff?
My point::: maybe he wasn't "just kidding".

pietro c7