$169,900, final price confirmed
12-24-2018, 12:50 PM
#1681
12-24-2018, 12:52 PM
#1682
Apparently he does not understand or wish to believe GM is in business to make a volume car and not to compete head on with a "supercar." He also does not understand the marketing position issue said best in my recent post: "Folks selling Rolex watches don't sell Timex and folks selling Timex don't also sell Rolex!"
12-24-2018, 12:57 PM
#1683
Why is it so hard for you to understand my marketing point re Timex/Rolex etc (retract, I gave up hope some time ago!) Have you ever been to a Porsche dealership???
FUN STORY RE VISITING ONE NEAR HILTON HEAD!
Was in Hilton Head for New Year with friends and the wife had a Porsche Cayenne at the time. Not super happy with the Porsche dealer where I was bringing her car for expensive ($250) oil changes and all they did was change oil and check off as OK a bunch of stuff not really needed. I checked and the Porsche dealership just outside Hilton Head had an oil change special. Made an appointment for 10 AM.
Wife and friends wanted to visit something so I brought the car in early! Boy that was a problem as they have everything planned to be ready when you get there. They were jumping all over themselves to be sure I was happy waiting! Mentioned they had a Porsche Panorama GTS in being fitted with "every option" offered including those the dealer installs. As I recall it had a price near $200,000! I remember saying that is impossible and the salesman laughed and said - it adds up! (For those who mention Corvette tax, look at any Porsche option, it's over 5 times a Vette price.) It even had the off-road package that has electric links on the sway bars that can release to you get more wheel travel it going over rocky areas!
I recall asking the young lady at the desk in the waiting area who was buying the car? She said a fellow with a Russian accent bought it for his wife. He just said, "put every option on it available!" She said he had just bought two adjacent ocean front homes in Hilton head, was tearing them down and building one with Gold plated fixtures! Then she said, his wife had a necklace with a diamond as big as a golf ball! I recall thinking Russian oligarch, could also be someone you don't want to mess with.
Bottom Line: He would not shop at a Chevy Dealer!
FUN STORY RE VISITING ONE NEAR HILTON HEAD!
Was in Hilton Head for New Year with friends and the wife had a Porsche Cayenne at the time. Not super happy with the Porsche dealer where I was bringing her car for expensive ($250) oil changes and all they did was change oil and check off as OK a bunch of stuff not really needed. I checked and the Porsche dealership just outside Hilton Head had an oil change special. Made an appointment for 10 AM.
Wife and friends wanted to visit something so I brought the car in early! Boy that was a problem as they have everything planned to be ready when you get there. They were jumping all over themselves to be sure I was happy waiting! Mentioned they had a Porsche Panorama GTS in being fitted with "every option" offered including those the dealer installs. As I recall it had a price near $200,000! I remember saying that is impossible and the salesman laughed and said - it adds up! (For those who mention Corvette tax, look at any Porsche option, it's over 5 times a Vette price.) It even had the off-road package that has electric links on the sway bars that can release to you get more wheel travel it going over rocky areas!
I recall asking the young lady at the desk in the waiting area who was buying the car? She said a fellow with a Russian accent bought it for his wife. He just said, "put every option on it available!" She said he had just bought two adjacent ocean front homes in Hilton head, was tearing them down and building one with Gold plated fixtures! Then she said, his wife had a necklace with a diamond as big as a golf ball! I recall thinking Russian oligarch, could also be someone you don't want to mess with.
Bottom Line: He would not shop at a Chevy Dealer!
12-24-2018, 01:00 PM
#1684
Race Director
If Corvette did Boxster/Cayman numbers, there wouldn't BE a Corvette anymore. You keep banging the Porsche drum, and the 911 is CLEARLY a great success, but the Boxster/Cayman, by Corvette sales standards are FLOPS. Hell, by 911 sales standards they're flops.
By the way, the Boxster/Cayman (all VERSIONS) COMBINED have sold 5,039 cars through November (a whopping 458.09 cars per month). Same period (January-November 2018), Porsche has sold 8,994 911's (817.63 cars per month). Corvette has sold 13,561 cars through SEPTEMBER (GM releases sales quarterly now), average 1,506.78 cars per month.
http://www.goodcarbadcar.net/2018/05...sales-figures/
Last edited by jimmyb; 12-24-2018 at 01:11 PM.
12-24-2018, 01:09 PM
#1685
Race Director
12-24-2018, 01:45 PM
#1686
E-Ray, 3LZ, ZER, LIFT
Member Since: Sep 2007
Location: NE South Carolina
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GM is in the business of making “affordable” sports cars not to compete with “high end car manufacturers” who have built their image on “delivering extra” whatever.I’m not trying to say the C8 will compete with some “super cars” or believe it will start at $169,900 as a very few insist is the case.
In fact I can see when it’s introduced at ~$70,000 those delusional folks will say; “Just wait, the $200,000 gullwing Model is coming!”
Last edited by JerryU; 12-24-2018 at 04:52 PM.
12-24-2018, 02:28 PM
#1687
After walls and walls and walls of words on this thread, it all boils down to one simple financial truism. No one has ever sold more than 2-3K 2-seat sports cars annually, worldwide with prices starting at $150K+. The market just isn't there. It is noteworthy that ZR1 sales are on target at 2-3K sales annually, and that half of C7 sales are in the $50-60K bracket. Similarly, most 911 sales are the entry-level models.
GM is not interested in the high-end only business model, but, of course, they will ultimately develop a ZR1 equivalent AFTER mining the high-volume, relatively low cost, traditional Corvette market. Once the lower-end cars are fully developed and selling at a brisk pace, GM can build the "supercar" cost-effectively with high performance bolt-ons to the base design, just as they have done with today's ZR1.
Lastly NO ONE close to GM has suggested that the C7 will soldier on once the ME is introduced. If that strategy were in play, it would have leaked by now.
GM is not interested in the high-end only business model, but, of course, they will ultimately develop a ZR1 equivalent AFTER mining the high-volume, relatively low cost, traditional Corvette market. Once the lower-end cars are fully developed and selling at a brisk pace, GM can build the "supercar" cost-effectively with high performance bolt-ons to the base design, just as they have done with today's ZR1.
Lastly NO ONE close to GM has suggested that the C7 will soldier on once the ME is introduced. If that strategy were in play, it would have leaked by now.
Last edited by Foosh; 12-24-2018 at 02:35 PM.
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12-24-2018, 02:47 PM
#1688
^^^ Very true on the limited amounts and manufacturer can sell a car that is $150K plus. To your other point, I highly doubt that half of Corvette sales are bare bone base models as your $55-60K price indicates. Sure maybe after deep discounts a decent but smaller % is sold under $60K but we're talking about MSRP and most Corvette's are equipped at least with the 2LT option and up. That's not counting auto transmission option, wheel options, and other options that add to the 1LTY, 2LT and 3LT trim levels. Plus not counting Z06 & ZR1 prices. It's way higher than that.
That said the Corvette has proven it can sell $100K plus cars in decent quantities with the Z06 & ZR1 so we shall see what the base ME will start at?
That said the Corvette has proven it can sell $100K plus cars in decent quantities with the Z06 & ZR1 so we shall see what the base ME will start at?
Last edited by DaveFerrari458; 12-24-2018 at 02:47 PM.
12-24-2018, 04:15 PM
#1689
It matters not, whether the $55-65K price of which I speak is MSRP or the discounted sales price. That's the price buyers paid for roughly half of all C7 sales, and that's the price it takes to move that many units. So yes, the base ME could start at a $70-75K MSRP, and when produced in normal Corvette volume for the first couple of MYs, it will be discounted to a level that will move a lot of units.
Most of those $100K (MSRP) Z06s of which you speak sold for more like $85K, and still sold in far fewer numbers than Stingrays.
Most of those $100K (MSRP) Z06s of which you speak sold for more like $85K, and still sold in far fewer numbers than Stingrays.
Last edited by Foosh; 12-24-2018 at 04:20 PM.
12-24-2018, 05:04 PM
#1690
Melting Slicks
After walls and walls and walls of words on this thread, it all boils down to one simple financial truism. No one has ever sold more than 2-3K 2-seat sports cars annually, worldwide with prices starting at $150K+. The market just isn't there. It is noteworthy that ZR1 sales are on target at 2-3K sales annually, and that half of C7 sales are in the $50-60K bracket. Similarly, most 911 sales are the entry-level models.
GM is not interested in the high-end only business model, but, of course, they will ultimately develop a ZR1 equivalent AFTER mining the high-volume, relatively low cost, traditional Corvette market. Once the lower-end cars are fully developed and selling at a brisk pace, GM can build the "supercar" cost-effectively with high performance bolt-ons to the base design, just as they have done with today's ZR1.
Lastly NO ONE close to GM has suggested that the C7 will soldier on once the ME is introduced. If that strategy were in play, it would have leaked by now.
GM is not interested in the high-end only business model, but, of course, they will ultimately develop a ZR1 equivalent AFTER mining the high-volume, relatively low cost, traditional Corvette market. Once the lower-end cars are fully developed and selling at a brisk pace, GM can build the "supercar" cost-effectively with high performance bolt-ons to the base design, just as they have done with today's ZR1.
Lastly NO ONE close to GM has suggested that the C7 will soldier on once the ME is introduced. If that strategy were in play, it would have leaked by now.
12-24-2018, 10:26 PM
#1691
Le Mans Master
After walls and walls and walls of words on this thread, it all boils down to one simple financial truism. No one has ever sold more than 2-3K 2-seat sports cars annually, worldwide with prices starting at $150K+. The market just isn't there. It is noteworthy that ZR1 sales are on target at 2-3K sales annually, and that half of C7 sales are in the $50-60K bracket. Similarly, most 911 sales are the entry-level models.
GM is not interested in the high-end only business model, but, of course, they will ultimately develop a ZR1 equivalent AFTER mining the high-volume, relatively low cost, traditional Corvette market. Once the lower-end cars are fully developed and selling at a brisk pace, GM can build the "supercar" cost-effectively with high performance bolt-ons to the base design, just as they have done with today's ZR1.
Lastly NO ONE close to GM has suggested that the C7 will soldier on once the ME is introduced. If that strategy were in play, it would have leaked by now.
GM is not interested in the high-end only business model, but, of course, they will ultimately develop a ZR1 equivalent AFTER mining the high-volume, relatively low cost, traditional Corvette market. Once the lower-end cars are fully developed and selling at a brisk pace, GM can build the "supercar" cost-effectively with high performance bolt-ons to the base design, just as they have done with today's ZR1.
Lastly NO ONE close to GM has suggested that the C7 will soldier on once the ME is introduced. If that strategy were in play, it would have leaked by now.
Maybe not the last paragraph.
Financially, it would make a lot of sense. It would not be very hard to hide plans to build C7's for a little longer.
12-25-2018, 11:29 AM
#1692
It wouldn't make sense financially to produce them if the demand trend line continues on the current steep downward slope. GM cannot sell 40-50K units annually without a base C8 in C7 cost territory.
After 6MYs and nearing 200K C7s produced, the C7 market is at or near the saturation point. Once the new model appears, they'd be lucky to sell 10K 7th MY, legacy C7s and 10K higher-cost C8s (@ $80-100K) annually. GM annual sales targets for the C8 are more than double that number, which means 35-40K or so C8s near C7s prices.
GM sold nearly 40K intro year, 14MY C7s, all of which were base and Z51s. My guess is we'll see all base models in the first MY, and they'll sell 40K or more.
After 6MYs and nearing 200K C7s produced, the C7 market is at or near the saturation point. Once the new model appears, they'd be lucky to sell 10K 7th MY, legacy C7s and 10K higher-cost C8s (@ $80-100K) annually. GM annual sales targets for the C8 are more than double that number, which means 35-40K or so C8s near C7s prices.
GM sold nearly 40K intro year, 14MY C7s, all of which were base and Z51s. My guess is we'll see all base models in the first MY, and they'll sell 40K or more.
Last edited by Foosh; 12-25-2018 at 11:44 AM.
12-25-2018, 12:16 PM
#1693
Le Mans Master
Member Since: Sep 2012
Location: Hagerstown MD
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St. Jude Donor '15-'16,'18
I agree Foosh but only if the MSRP is south of $75K. If a nicely equipped, say 2LT with Nav, C8 base approaches $85K, sales will drop to a level that might signal the death of the Corvette.
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Foosh (12-25-2018)
12-25-2018, 12:55 PM
#1694
It matters not, whether the $55-65K price of which I speak is MSRP or the discounted sales price. That's the price buyers paid for roughly half of all C7 sales, and that's the price it takes to move that many units. So yes, the base ME could start at a $70-75K MSRP, and when produced in normal Corvette volume for the first couple of MYs, it will be discounted to a level that will move a lot of units.
Most of those $100K (MSRP) Z06s of which you speak sold for more like $85K, and still sold in far fewer numbers than Stingrays.
Most of those $100K (MSRP) Z06s of which you speak sold for more like $85K, and still sold in far fewer numbers than Stingrays.
12-25-2018, 01:43 PM
#1695
Almost no one other than the least savvy was buying at MSRP into the 2nd half of the first MY. They built nearly 38K Stingrays that year, and anyone who wanted one could get it below MSRP 8 months or so into the run.
Sure, the discounts varied from 5-20% depending upon supply at the time and whether purchased from a high volume dealer or not.
Sure, the discounts varied from 5-20% depending upon supply at the time and whether purchased from a high volume dealer or not.
Last edited by Foosh; 12-25-2018 at 01:45 PM.
12-25-2018, 01:50 PM
#1696
Team Owner
Porsche OFFERS $60,000 sports cars....I'm not sure the paltry numbers that the Boxster/Cayman do are considered "sales" by Porsche.
If Corvette did Boxster/Cayman numbers, there wouldn't BE a Corvette anymore. You keep banging the Porsche drum, and the 911 is CLEARLY a great success, but the Boxster/Cayman, by Corvette sales standards are FLOPS. Hell, by 911 sales standards they're flops.
By the way, the Boxster/Cayman (all VERSIONS) COMBINED have sold 5,039 cars through November (a whopping 458.09 cars per month). Same period (January-November 2018), Porsche has sold 8,994 911's (817.63 cars per month). Corvette has sold 13,561 cars through SEPTEMBER (GM releases sales quarterly now), average 1,506.78 cars per month.
http://www.goodcarbadcar.net/2018/05...sales-figures/
If Corvette did Boxster/Cayman numbers, there wouldn't BE a Corvette anymore. You keep banging the Porsche drum, and the 911 is CLEARLY a great success, but the Boxster/Cayman, by Corvette sales standards are FLOPS. Hell, by 911 sales standards they're flops.
By the way, the Boxster/Cayman (all VERSIONS) COMBINED have sold 5,039 cars through November (a whopping 458.09 cars per month). Same period (January-November 2018), Porsche has sold 8,994 911's (817.63 cars per month). Corvette has sold 13,561 cars through SEPTEMBER (GM releases sales quarterly now), average 1,506.78 cars per month.
http://www.goodcarbadcar.net/2018/05...sales-figures/
Porsches are sold world wide.
Goodcarbadcar only shows sales numbers for those cars sold ONLY in the USA and Canada.
Porsche sales worldwide 2017.
911--------------------------------32,197
Boxster/Cayman---------------25,114
Cayenne-------------------------63,913
Macan----------------------------97,202
Panamera-----------------------37,605.
Now compare the total Porsches sports cars(911/Boxster/Cayman) sold worldwide, at 57,311, to the worldwide sales of Corvettes in 2017(27,095 in the US and Canada and approximately another 5% sold in Europe, Mexico, Japan and the Mideast).
For 2018, Corvette sales have been declining and Porsches sales have been increasing.
Last edited by JoesC5; 12-25-2018 at 01:57 PM.
12-25-2018, 01:57 PM
#1697
A few Corvettes are sold outside of N. America, but there has never been a major marketing push outside of the domestic market. There is virtually no dealer network internationally, whereas Porsche has a huge network. C7 is not even available in right-hand drive.
Rumor has it that GM wants to change this with the ME car, and will for the first time attempt to expand Corvette sales internationally.
Rumor has it that GM wants to change this with the ME car, and will for the first time attempt to expand Corvette sales internationally.
12-25-2018, 02:11 PM
#1698
Team Owner
A few Corvettes are sold outside of N. America, but there has never been a major marketing push outside of the domestic market. There is virtually no dealer network internationally, whereas Porsche has a huge network. C7 is not even available in right-hand drive.
Rumor has it that GM wants to change this with the ME car, and will for the first time attempt to expand Corvette sales internationally.
Rumor has it that GM wants to change this with the ME car, and will for the first time attempt to expand Corvette sales internationally.
12-25-2018, 02:16 PM
#1699
That's correct, they did try with the C6 and opened a few Cadillac/Corvette dealerships in Europe, and perhaps Japan (don't recall the latter), but it was a half-hearted effort at best. You're right that it clearly wasn't successful, although I believe they did build right-hand drive versions for the appropriate markets. It certainly wasn't a full-scale international marketing assault with a large network like Porsche has built over many years.
They didn't even try with the C7, but sold a few.
They didn't even try with the C7, but sold a few.
Last edited by Foosh; 12-25-2018 at 02:22 PM.
12-25-2018, 02:22 PM
#1700
Instructor
A few Corvettes are sold outside of N. America, but there has never been a major marketing push outside of the domestic market. There is virtually no dealer network internationally, whereas Porsche has a huge network. C7 is not even available in right-hand drive.
Rumor has it that GM wants to change this with the ME car, and will for the first time attempt to expand Corvette sales internationally.
Rumor has it that GM wants to change this with the ME car, and will for the first time attempt to expand Corvette sales internationally.
The quick and dirty is: I want to see the best Corvette Chevy can make, rather than the best Corvette that plays nice with EU regs.
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Rapid Fred (12-25-2018)