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ZR1 production is on target for 2K units a year. That speaks volumes for how many 2-seat sports cars one can sell in the mid $100K range.
That's economically viable as long as the C7 stays in production as it adds little incremental cost, since it's essentially just another C7 with upgraded parts. However, the C7 market is nearing saturation, it's now old, and it won't continue to sell well. The falling sales numbers make that painfully clear.
It's not economically rational to keep building something with sagging sales, and then simultaneously produce an entirely new model at a price point where the demand will be well under 10K units/year. The per unit cost of that model would indeed make it another Viper disaster.
This thread has overstayed it's welcome, but mostly because of all the rants against the pricing. If $169K is the price, great, bring on the exotic Corvette. Let the car be a halo car. Personally 'mI tired of seeing Corvettes being driven by guys with members only jackets and gold chains, or walkers and hearing aids. Give the car a nice interior and exterior to go with the performance and GM will have a nice halo car to bring customers in to buy very ugly trucks and even uglier Camaros.
The criticisms of Viper are hilarious. Viper won. Heck, it won before the battle even started. The looks of the car alone draw attention on any street you go down. No C4, C5, C6, or C7 has ever gotten as much attention as any year model Viper. Sales don't matter, and even if they did the Viper was never about selling Vipers, it was a halo car and it was about selling all the other cars in Dodge's lineup. And it worked, Dodge is currently the American brand equated with muscle cars and agressive designs. And is the only American company selling large quantities of actual cars, as in non-truck platforms.
Personally I hope the C8 is designed to compete with the LaFerraris, the P1s, and the Ford GTs of the world. That way we can take all this silliness of the excuse 'well it costs a lot less' when Corvettes don't measure up to the other supercars and toss it out the window.
Face it, the median price for a high end sports car is creeping over $100k. Corvette has to keep up or fall behind and be forgotten.
LOL, no one is dissing the Viper's performance. It was an economic failure, which is why it's no longer with us, duh.
For the mega manufacturers, halo cars, a la the Ford GT are not about making a profit on the car itself. They are marketing campaigns. Once the marketing benefits are realized, they go away.
Give the car a nice interior and exterior to go with the performance and GM will have a nice halo car to bring customers in to buy very ugly trucks and even uglier Camaros.
The criticisms of Viper are hilarious. Viper won. Heck, it won before the battle even started. The looks of the car alone draw attention on any street you go down. No C4, C5, C6, or C7 has ever gotten as much attention as any year model Viper. Sales don't matter, and even if they did the Viper was never about selling Vipers, it was a halo car and it was about selling all the other cars in Dodge's lineup. And it worked, Dodge is currently the American brand equated with muscle cars and agressive designs. And is the only American company selling large quantities of actual cars, as in non-truck platforms.
Personally I hope the C8 is designed to compete with the LaFerraris, the P1s, and the Ford GTs of the world. That way we can take all this silliness of the excuse 'well it costs a lot less' when Corvettes don't measure up to the other supercars and toss it out the window.
Face it, the median price for a high end sports car is creeping over $100k. Corvette has to keep up or fall behind and be forgotten.
That's not how halo cars work, and the Corvette has sold far in excess of the Dodge Viper. Dodge sells lots of cars because they're building what people want: powerful roomy cars with AWD. Nobody says "well I like this Malibu the most but since Dodge made the Viper I'll buy a Dodge Charger." They buy the Charger because it's better for their needs than a Malibu.
GM could have taken that segment. They could have made a four door Camaro based on the Alpha platformw with an AWD option and powerful engine options. Instead they made the overpriced ATS with a cramped back seat. And the Camaro? They went full on ugly and recreated a Normandy machine gun bunker interior. Maybe they were making it for drive by shooters?
. Corvette has to keep up or fall behind and be forgotten.
GM wants to make the Corvette a world class sports car that can take on anything under $300 K and beat it in any market, including Germany. To conquer the world, GM needs more than a new Stingray so the Zora will move up market above the ZR1. That is the business case that Corvette sold to GM management which must approve all new vehicles. The only real question is whether Corvette can deliver a world class car on par with Porsche, Lambo and Ferrari.
I'd like to make a bet with you. If you're right, and the base ME model is priced above today's base ZR1 MSRP (currently $121K), I'll pay you $1,000. If you're wrong, you pay me $100. Deal?
Before you decide, in the pricing poll here with more than 200 votes, only about 10% believe the starting price will be above $85K. You keep doubling down on your wild predictions and unfounded assertions. Where did you get your insider info on how the GM Board of Directors approved the business case for production of a car priced above the current ZR1? Wow, that was a great scoop you got, LOL.
Let me know on that bet. With the terms I offered, you have very little to lose.
I doubt that GM will do that at $170,000 other than a limited production run top of the line car. GM is a volume vehicle manufacture, like Ford, but Ford has a history with mid engine cars and it is a limited production car. The Corvette is not a limited production run, some say that they would lose 2/3 of their sales, I would bet that they would lose 75% of their sales and this would be the end of Corvette, Maybe GM is going to drop Corvette an go in the direction of Ford, build a limited production run vehicle that will die in 2 years.
I doubt that GM will do that. They are not going to spent 400 million bucks to kill the Corvette.
Oh, I know! They are going to kill Corvette an build a Caddy version mid engine car. Another debacle in the making.
I am going to stick with the mid 60's price point, if I am wrong it is just another disappointment in a long line of them in my life. I will survive, but Corvette won't.
I'd like to make a bet with you. If you're right, and the base ME model is priced above today's base ZR1 MSRP (currently $121K), I'll pay you $1,000. If you're wrong, you pay me $100. Deal?
Before you decide, in the pricing poll here with more than 200 votes, only about 10% believe the starting price will be above $85K. You keep doubling down on your wild predictions and unfounded assertions. Where did you get your insider info on how the GM Board of Directors approved the business case for production of a car priced above the current ZR1? Wow, that was a great scoop you got, LOL.
Let me know on that bet. With the terms I offered, you have very little to lose.
good luck with that. My guess is he's all talk with his voodoo economics and China being the future target of corvette sales. No entry level c8 will cost anywhere near $169,000 and most intelligent vette owners here can see that. A crazy post by a nutty troll started all this and a couple of others bought into it for no perceptible reason.
I think guy works for GM is doing some market testing, lol. There is no way on this world the next generation base corvette will be more than 15% of the current gen.
I explained it many times ,please except it ...
The primary market is the 65-70k market.
They cater to us first....
This primary market gets first dibs .They always have,
We are great customers,don’t complain much and we buy on impulse.
After we’re served ,they serve everyone else...
There is a primary market, many will go along with it but if one just reads forums, I can see where GM may say "Time for a new crowd" cause this one complains about everything.
Cant get Nordstroms quality at Walmart prices.
On a side note GM could care less about protecting any C7 owners values or investment, they care about making money and selling cars, period.
Zerv02 may be the designated leaker of Corvette. Management likely wants to run things up the flag pole and see if anyone salutes. So leaking the ballpark price and other details is their way of getting reactions while remaining anonymous. G
Let me tell it to you something. The C8 is going to set a very high standard in the industry. It will cost a whole lot less to produce than the C7. It will be lighter with a stiffer chassis. Expect A $60g to $170 G price range after 2 years of production at today's $s. By that time, the C8 will get boring, like Bob Lutz suggests in his interview with Autoline.
Enter the FE C9. It will use the same materials and construction methods and will be even cheaper than the C8 when they build them side by side.
How do I know? Well, I'm a chassis guy. I use mild steel only because it's cheap light and strong. I keep abreast of the latest chassis developments in production and race cars.I am building a Vette now which will be my last sports car. It looks a bit like Mitchell's 59 Stingray. Chassis is tuned for cruising for an old fart.
I don't have inside information, but I have become aware of GMs patent filings and SAE papers, cooperation with other car and component companies, engineers attending courses at the top engineering schools researching mostly materials science and modern manufacturing methods.
The C8 will have many firsts in the automotive industry. The only way this won't happen is if the communists gain power again.
One magic word. Magnesium. Only the technically minded should continue:
Magnesium
A surge in interest over the past decade has revealed how magnesium alloys and coating techniques (See below) can make the most of its attractive properties:
Magnesium is extremely light: it is 75% lighter than steel, 50% lighter than titanium, and 33% lighter than aluminium.
It has the highest known damping capacity of any structural metal, capable of withstanding 10x more than aluminium, titanium, or steel.
It is very easy to machine, and can be injection moulded.
Magnesium is entirely biocompatible, posing no toxicity hazards.
On the other hand, it has some well known shortcomings that limit its wider applicability.
The metal is chemically highly active, so chemical and corrosion resistance tends to be low
Low surface hardness, like aluminium, makes it difficult to use in tribological applications without a coating
Perennial concerns about flammability sometimes rule out the use of magnesium, sometimes without justification. Nonetheless, this aspect should still be considered as part of a holistic material selection process.
Since the 1998 ACEA agreement, legislation limiting carbon emissions has led the automotive industry to investigate ways in which the extremely light weight of magnesium can be made fit for purpose. Prior to this surge in interest, magnesium had seemed unusable in many industrial contexts:
Magnesium’s high reactivity had made it susceptible to corrosion. However, recently discovered alloys and higher-purity variants of traditional alloys have a much greater resistant to corrosion, and new coating techniques such as plasma electrolytic oxidation (PEO) make a thoroughly resistant neutral oxide from the metal’s substrate.
Magnesium’s poor creep resistance had made it unsuitable for high temperatures, but recently discovered alloys such as ZE41 & ZWO8203 are heat resistant at extreme temperatures (c. 400 F). PEO coatings also make magnesium extremely heat resistant.
Magnesium’s low tensile strength had made it unsuitable for structural uses, but new alloys and coatings mean this is no longer the case.
As a result of these developments, magnesium is increasingly being used in a range of settings:
Automotive Magnesium Die Casting Through Thermal and Flow Control
Microstructure and Mechanical Properties of Squeeze Cast AZ91D Magnesium Alloy
Prediction of Distortion and Residual Stresses in a Magnesium High Pressure Diecasting with Considerations to the Diecasting Process
The Use of Quality Mapping to Predict Performance of Thin-Walled Magnesium Die Castings
Optimizing the Magnesium Die Casting Process to Achieve Reliability in Automotive Applications
Effect of HPDC Parameters on the Performance of Creep Resistant Alloys
MRI153M and MRI230D.
Magnesium has to be coated. The methodology for producing PEO Plasma Electrolytic Oxidation- induced ceramic layers.
. Benefits of PEO over comparable coating techniques.
. Highly flexible and controlled processing parameters that adjust the qualities of the finish.
. Coating characteristics that are providing enhanced performance across a variety of challenging applications.
. Far less toxic and cheaper to mine, process and machine than aluminum.
The Concept and Technology of Alloy Formation During Semisolid Injection Molding
Numerical Modeling of the Structural Behavior of Thin-Walled Cast Magnesium Components Using a Through-Process Approach
The USAMP Magnesium Powertrain Cast Components Project: Testing the Magnesium-Intensive Engine
Magnesium Engine Cradle - The USCAR Structural Cast Magnesium Development Project
The Application of Magnesium Die Casting to Vehicle Closures
Use of Cast Magnesium Back Frames in Automotive Seating
(2006 Corvette Z06 Structural Cast Magnesium Crossmember: see below)
Magnesium based surface metal matrix composites by friction stir processing
https://www.sciencedirect.com/scienc...13956716000037
Surface metal matrix composites (MMCs) are a group of modern engineered materials where the surface of the material is modified by dispersing secondary phase in the form of particles or fibers and the core of the material experience no change in chemical composition and structure. The potential applications of the surface MMCs can be found in automotive, aerospace, biomedical and power industries. Recently, friction stir processing (FSP) technique has been gaining wide popularity in producing surface composites in solid state itself. Magnesium and its alloys being difficult to process metals also have been successfully processed by FSP to fabricate surface MMCs. The aim of the present paper is to provide a comprehensive summary of state-of-the-art in fabricating magnesium based composites by FSP. Influence of the secondary phase particles and grain refinement resulted from FSP on the properties of these composites is also discussed
Observation of the C8 CAD chassis and my own involvement with chassis design leads me to the following conclusions.
Starting with the C5's A356-T6 cast aluminum front and rear suspension crossmembers. GM had already begun to experiment with magnesium.
The C6 got Cast Magnesium Crossmembers and the 3 pound front fenders of the C6 Z06 were made of carbon unidirectional prepreg, autoclave cured ACG. See more panels on the C8 made like this.
The C7 was a further development of this structure and the use of these materials and the ACG parts parts made in Israel which has contracts with the Pentagon.
The C8 ME is going to use titanium and magnesium with creep resistant Mg Alloys of MRI153M and MRI230D
Extremely advanced methods that have never been used before on cars will be employed. Magnesium die casting with advanced thermal anti distortion flow control in the major structures. Magnesium is cheap, it has been difficult to produce before because of oxidation. Aluminum doesn't have this problem when cast. Modern methods have made magnesium viable.
Squeeze cast AZ91 D magnesium micro structures for windshield bulkhead and seats , advanced mapping to control residual stresses for thin walled magnesium die castings in steering components, etc.
The cast magnesium engine cradle and front sub frame are the major structural components which are connected to the center carbon fiber backbone and the two hydro formed aluminum perimeter rails with magnesium die casted closures.
The OHC engines will have magnesium cylinder blocks and other components such as plenums and manifolds and other castings. The use of titanium and magnesium based MMCs will also be employed. Again, the C8 will be much lighter, stronger and cheaper than the C7.
I'm leaning towards ZERV02 on this one honestly. Just to see everyone get mad and frustrated LOL. This price range supports the two car model if the two car model is correct (FME and ME cars both at the same time). IF and I mean IF C8 ME is to replace the FME car, it will be towards the end of C7 before any lower trims debut (perhaps, if they do exist).
Its "historical base" has no place in todays world.
Things have changed, and they need to evolve/follow global trends
I run my own business and honestly I don't know of any business that tells any of its customers to **** off without repercussions of a negative nature. A wise man told me that owns the biggest investment firm in the state about his success being that "You never burn Michael Bay your bridges because you never know when you might need to cross them again!". If that truly is GM's policy then maybe they need another bankruptcy to get back on track and new management.
Edit: adjusted due to word corrections and impact to the reader as i was corrected below
I run my own business and honestly I don't know of any business that tells any of its customers to **** off without repercussions of a negative nature. A wise man told me that owns the biggest investment firm in the state about his success being that "You never burn your bridges because you never know when you might need to cross them again!". If that truly is GM's policy then maybe they need another bankruptcy to get back on track and new management.
Let me tell it to you something. The C8 is going to set a very high standard in the industry. It will cost a whole lot less to produce than the C7. It will be lighter with a stiffer chassis. Expect A $60g to $170 G price range after 2 years of production at today's $s. By that time, the C8 will get boring, like Bob Lutz suggests in his interview with Autoline.
Enter the FE C9. It will use the same materials and construction methods and will be even cheaper than the C8 when they build them side by side.
How do I know? Well, I'm a chassis guy. I use mild steel only because it's cheap light and strong. I keep abreast of the latest chassis developments in production and race cars.I am building a Vette now which will be my last sports car. It looks a bit like Mitchell's 59 Stingray. Chassis is tuned for cruising for an old fart.
I don't have inside information, but I have become aware of GMs patent filings and SAE papers, cooperation with other car and component companies, engineers attending courses at the top engineering schools researching mostly materials science and modern manufacturing methods.
The C8 will have many firsts in the automotive industry. The only way this won't happen is if the communists gain power again.
One magic word. Magnesium. Only the technically minded should continue:
Magnesium
A surge in interest over the past decade has revealed how magnesium alloys and coating techniques (See below) can make the most of its attractive properties:
Magnesium is extremely light: it is 75% lighter than steel, 50% lighter than titanium, and 33% lighter than aluminium.
It has the highest known damping capacity of any structural metal, capable of withstanding 10x more than aluminium, titanium, or steel.
It is very easy to machine, and can be injection moulded.
Magnesium is entirely biocompatible, posing no toxicity hazards.
On the other hand, it has some well known shortcomings that limit its wider applicability.
The metal is chemically highly active, so chemical and corrosion resistance tends to be low
Low surface hardness, like aluminium, makes it difficult to use in tribological applications without a coating
Perennial concerns about flammability sometimes rule out the use of magnesium, sometimes without justification. Nonetheless, this aspect should still be considered as part of a holistic material selection process.
Since the 1998 ACEA agreement, legislation limiting carbon emissions has led the automotive industry to investigate ways in which the extremely light weight of magnesium can be made fit for purpose. Prior to this surge in interest, magnesium had seemed unusable in many industrial contexts:
Magnesium’s high reactivity had made it susceptible to corrosion. However, recently discovered alloys and higher-purity variants of traditional alloys have a much greater resistant to corrosion, and new coating techniques such as plasma electrolytic oxidation (PEO) make a thoroughly resistant neutral oxide from the metal’s substrate.
Magnesium’s poor creep resistance had made it unsuitable for high temperatures, but recently discovered alloys such as ZE41 & ZWO8203 are heat resistant at extreme temperatures (c. 400 F). PEO coatings also make magnesium extremely heat resistant.
Magnesium’s low tensile strength had made it unsuitable for structural uses, but new alloys and coatings mean this is no longer the case.
As a result of these developments, magnesium is increasingly being used in a range of settings:
Automotive Magnesium Die Casting Through Thermal and Flow Control
Microstructure and Mechanical Properties of Squeeze Cast AZ91D Magnesium Alloy
Prediction of Distortion and Residual Stresses in a Magnesium High Pressure Diecasting with Considerations to the Diecasting Process
The Use of Quality Mapping to Predict Performance of Thin-Walled Magnesium Die Castings
Optimizing the Magnesium Die Casting Process to Achieve Reliability in Automotive Applications
Effect of HPDC Parameters on the Performance of Creep Resistant Alloys
MRI153M and MRI230D.
Magnesium has to be coated. The methodology for producing PEO Plasma Electrolytic Oxidation- induced ceramic layers.
. Benefits of PEO over comparable coating techniques.
. Highly flexible and controlled processing parameters that adjust the qualities of the finish.
. Coating characteristics that are providing enhanced performance across a variety of challenging applications.
. Far less toxic and cheaper to mine, process and machine than aluminum.
The Concept and Technology of Alloy Formation During Semisolid Injection Molding
Numerical Modeling of the Structural Behavior of Thin-Walled Cast Magnesium Components Using a Through-Process Approach
The USAMP Magnesium Powertrain Cast Components Project: Testing the Magnesium-Intensive Engine
The USAMP Magnesium Powertrain Cast Components Project: Testing the Magnesium-Intensive Engine
Magnesium Engine Cradle - The USCAR Structural Cast Magnesium Development Project
The Application of Magnesium Die Casting to Vehicle Closures
Use of Cast Magnesium Back Frames in Automotive Seating
(2006 Corvette Z06 Structural Cast Magnesium Crossmember: see below)
Magnesium based surface metal matrix composites by friction stir processing
https://www.sciencedirect.com/scienc...13956716000037
Surface metal matrix composites (MMCs) are a group of modern engineered materials where the surface of the material is modified by dispersing secondary phase in the form of particles or fibers and the core of the material experience no change in chemical composition and structure. The potential applications of the surface MMCs can be found in automotive, aerospace, biomedical and power industries. Recently, friction stir processing (FSP) technique has been gaining wide popularity in producing surface composites in solid state itself. Magnesium and its alloys being difficult to process metals also have been successfully processed by FSP to fabricate surface MMCs. The aim of the present paper is to provide a comprehensive summary of state-of-the-art in fabricating magnesium based composites by FSP. Influence of the secondary phase particles and grain refinement resulted from FSP on the properties of these composites is also discussed
Observation of the C8 CAD chassis and my own involvement with chassis design leads me to the following conclusions.
Starting with the C5's A356-T6 cast aluminum front and rear suspension crossmembers. GM had already begun to experiment with magnesium.
The C6 got Cast Magnesium Crossmembers and the 3 pound front fenders of the C6 Z06 were made of carbon unidirectional prepreg, autoclave cured ACG. See more panels on the C8 made like this.
The C7 was a further development of this structure and the use of these materials and the ACG parts parts made in Israel which has contracts with the Pentagon.
The C8 ME is going to use titanium and magnesium with creep resistant Mg Alloys of MRI153M and MRI230D
Extremely advanced methods that have never been used before on cars will be employed. Magnesium die casting with advanced thermal anti distortion flow control in the major structures. Magnesium is cheap, it has been difficult to produce before because of oxidation. Aluminum doesn't have this problem when cast. Modern methods have made magnesium viable.
Squeeze cast AZ91 D magnesium micro structures for windshield bulkhead and seats , advanced mapping to control residual stresses for thin walled magnesium die castings in steering components, etc.
The cast magnesium engine cradle and front sub frame are the major structural components which are connected to the center carbon fiber backbone and the two hydro formed perimeter aluminum perimeter rails with magnesium die casted closures.
The OHC engines will have magnesium cylinder blocks and other components such as plenums and manifolds and other castings. The use of titanium and magnesium based MMCs will also be employed. Again, the C8 will be much lighter, stronger and cheaper than the C7.
Bravo. The C8 will represent a leapfrog extension of the secret sauce formula that Chevy has used to build the best car in the world for generations.
GM wants to make the Corvette a world class sports car that can take on anything under $300 K and beat it in any market, including Germany. To conquer the world, GM needs more than a new Stingray so the Zora will move up market above the ZR1. That is the business case that Corvette sold to GM management which must approve all new vehicles. The only real question is whether Corvette can deliver a world class car on par with Porsche, Lambo and Ferrari.
GM has already achieved this. The only cars it hasn’t is 300k and above cars. Ford GT was destroyed by the Zr1 at vir. We don’t know what the ringtime is. So, it’s hard to say. So, this statement makes no sense. If they want to beat the 300 k and above crowd this car will need to be at least at 250k. It’s not just performance but luxury as well. Also, the quality of service which has been mentioned would need significant upgrade. I’m not bringing my 250k plus car to a regular Chevy dealership. Doesn’t make sense. My dads lambo when service is considered was no comparison to what you see at a Chevy dealership. You’ve been severely misinformed no board would commit to this value proposition. Explain to me the business case for this? The c7 sales are dying and will continue to decline. There’s already so much inventory and will only increase during the winter. The c7 was supposed to be a midengine. They’ve tinkered with this idea for a long time. Changing engine placement is not a new idea for Chevy. I want to understand where Chevy makes money under your scenario. I don’t see it.
Thanks for post 374, Shaka. It’s mind boggling how advanced this car may be for its price range, but I’m impressed by your knowledge as well.
If your post is accurate, which I don’t doubt considering the advancement of technology over the years, the curb weights of the C8 lineup will be phenomenal, and the prices should theoretically be even more competitive than they are now. Thanks again, I can’t wait to see the reveal of the C8.
11-02-2018, 12:05 PM
