$169,900, final price confirmed
12-10-2018, 02:18 PM
#1361
Melting Slicks
You totally missed the boat here.
It's actually the vast majority who believe, some with very sound reasoning and others with inside information, that it will start "affordable" and go up to near, if not at, super-car status. That's not because of desire, that's just the only model that makes economic sense for a company like GM, and it's a production model that has succeeded in spectacular fashion for decades. What makes absolutely no sense, is why GM would even consider abandoning such a successful strategy of producing multiple cost and performance versions of 2-seat sports car all on the same platform. Even if the engineers wanted to go your direction, a sane CEO and Board of Directors would kabash them quickly.
The brilliance of the C7 is that the one platform is so capable, it accommodates an entry-level $55K version all the way up to a $130K+, fire-breathing monster. We'll see that essentially replicated on the ME car. By producing so many of the same platform, they can do it in very cost-effective fashion and beat everyone else in the industry on the performance/value equation by a wide margin.
I'm really totally agnostic here and brand agnostic in general. I have no idea whether I'll like the car or not. My C7 could very well be my last Corvette. I've also been privileged with enough credible info to be confident in what's almost certainly going to happen with the new ME car.
What you desire is totally unrealistic and would be an unbelievably stupid and risky decision.
It's actually the vast majority who believe, some with very sound reasoning and others with inside information, that it will start "affordable" and go up to near, if not at, super-car status. That's not because of desire, that's just the only model that makes economic sense for a company like GM, and it's a production model that has succeeded in spectacular fashion for decades. What makes absolutely no sense, is why GM would even consider abandoning such a successful strategy of producing multiple cost and performance versions of 2-seat sports car all on the same platform. Even if the engineers wanted to go your direction, a sane CEO and Board of Directors would kabash them quickly.
The brilliance of the C7 is that the one platform is so capable, it accommodates an entry-level $55K version all the way up to a $130K+, fire-breathing monster. We'll see that essentially replicated on the ME car. By producing so many of the same platform, they can do it in very cost-effective fashion and beat everyone else in the industry on the performance/value equation by a wide margin.
I'm really totally agnostic here and brand agnostic in general. I have no idea whether I'll like the car or not. My C7 could very well be my last Corvette. I've also been privileged with enough credible info to be confident in what's almost certainly going to happen with the new ME car.
What you desire is totally unrealistic and would be an unbelievably stupid and risky decision.
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PCMIII (12-10-2018)
12-10-2018, 02:22 PM
#1362
Race Director
I am not opposed to continuing the C7 as a refreshed model. BUT, the mid-engine cannot be strictly a $169K model. As Tadge has famously said numerous times, Corvette HAS to pay it's way. GM spent $250 MILLION in R&D on the C7....how much do you think the mid-engine has cost? I promise you it's a hellava lot more than that. And that has to be paid back. And selling 2,000 of them a year (if they're lucky) at $169K ain't gonna do it. If GM could NET $40K per unit, that's $80 MILLION a year. I know a few here have this "halo" car fantasy that says the company is making it to stroke it's ego. "Viper was never intended to make money"....how many times is that nugget thrown around? If that's true, why doesn't FCA still make the Viper? Hint: Because it didn't MAKE MONEY.
12-10-2018, 02:24 PM
#1363
Performance: Same. It can run with many of the best, but not all. So let's pretend it can hang with a high end Porsche, fine. That's not a Zonda or a La Ferrari, it's not going to keep up with those. And rightly so, it costs a fraction. Regardless, it ends up in the middle. So...mediocre.
Interior: GM has never made a great interior in a car. The closest it gets is when it has farmed it out to the Australians. While some love there C7 interior, it is not high-end and this is generally accepted in the automotive world. And it's hard to keep up, especially when makers like Bugatti are creating interiors that cost more than the whole of the C7. So..mediocre to bottom on this one.
Build Quality: In this category GM wins and loses. Fit, finish, and paint quality is often lacking and would easily place GM at the bottom...as assembly line quality is lacking in this regard. Lest we mention orange peel paint? On the flip side, GM has a rather large budget and tests their parts extensively so when it comes to reliability over many of their competitors, they are the tops. And their parts cost much less to replace, that's a nice bonus as well. Porsche would likely have the highest build quality on all respects with GM close behind in some aspects. But due to fit, finish, and paint issues, GM still finds itself lagging so again...middle aka mediocre.
You don't have to like the above, and you don't have to agree about who the Corvette's competition is, that doesn't make it any less true.
Last edited by Atari_Prime; 12-10-2018 at 02:30 PM.
12-10-2018, 02:27 PM
#1364
You know what I told you on our PM's to each other. My discussion with one of the large critical vendors indicated a front engined C8 (Y2XX) to me that you still are denying in your own analysis. You believe only one configuration going forward (even though Bowling Green has been tripled in size) and I am basing my analysis on that vendors comments to me with both C8 ME and C8 FE going forward. None of you that are predicting ME only, have yet to justify the massive expansion of Bowling Green. Not a single one of you will admit that expanding BG will most likely have other configuration's also. The C7 has a 106.7" wheelbase and the new ME scales to precisely that. That correlate's to the flexible 3 section chassis system that will fit the skillet system exactly. I'm basing my viewpoint on the premise that a entry level C8 FE will accommodate that lower price point that so many of you are freaking out about.
I do agree that BGA was expanded to accommodate possible future additional GM R&D and manufacturing plans, but those aren't in the execution phase yet.
Last edited by Foosh; 12-10-2018 at 02:47 PM.
12-10-2018, 02:32 PM
#1365
Race Director
Well...the C7 is devisive at least in the looks dept. There are a few basic categories to judge on sports cars: performance, appearance, interior, and build quality. Looks are quite debatable but generally even if you like the C7's looks most would not argue that it looks better than a Ferrari, Lamborghini, Bugatti, Koe****segg, Porsche, or Pagani among others. And that's it's competition. If you disagree, then the competition is the Challenger, Charger, Mustang, Stinger, M badges, and various medicore GT cars from around the globe. But those cars are really the competition of the Camaro so Ferrari and such it is. And when compared to all those German and Italian exotics, the looks of the C7 will be the tops for a few but middle to bottom for most. So looks: mediocre.
Performance: Same. It can run with many of the best, but not all. So let's pretend it can hang with a high end Porsche, fine. That's not a Zonda or a La Ferrari, it's not going to keep up with those. And rightly so, it costs a fraction. Regardless, it ends up in the middle. So...mediocre.
Interior: GM has never made a great interior in a car. The closest it gets is when it has farmed it out to the Australians. While some love there C7 interior, it is not high-end and this is generally accepted in the automotive world. And it's hard to keep up, especially when makers like Bugatti are creating interiors that cost more than the whole of the C7. So..mediocre to bottom on this one.
Build Quality: In this category GM wins and loses. Fit, finish, and paint quality is often lacking and would easily place GM at the bottom...as assembly line quality is lacking in this regard. Lest we mention orange peel paint? On the flip side, GM has a rather large budget and tests their parts extensively so when it comes to reliability over many of their competitors, they are the tops. And their parts cost much less to replace, that's a nice bonus as well. Porsche would likely have the highest build quality on all respects with GM close behind in some aspects. But due to fit, finish, and paint issues, GM still finds itself lagging so again...middle aka medicre.
You don't have to like the above, and you don't have to agree about who the Corvette's competition is, that doesn't make it any less true.
Performance: Same. It can run with many of the best, but not all. So let's pretend it can hang with a high end Porsche, fine. That's not a Zonda or a La Ferrari, it's not going to keep up with those. And rightly so, it costs a fraction. Regardless, it ends up in the middle. So...mediocre.
Interior: GM has never made a great interior in a car. The closest it gets is when it has farmed it out to the Australians. While some love there C7 interior, it is not high-end and this is generally accepted in the automotive world. And it's hard to keep up, especially when makers like Bugatti are creating interiors that cost more than the whole of the C7. So..mediocre to bottom on this one.
Build Quality: In this category GM wins and loses. Fit, finish, and paint quality is often lacking and would easily place GM at the bottom...as assembly line quality is lacking in this regard. Lest we mention orange peel paint? On the flip side, GM has a rather large budget and tests their parts extensively so when it comes to reliability over many of their competitors, they are the tops. And their parts cost much less to replace, that's a nice bonus as well. Porsche would likely have the highest build quality on all respects with GM close behind in some aspects. But due to fit, finish, and paint issues, GM still finds itself lagging so again...middle aka medicre.
You don't have to like the above, and you don't have to agree about who the Corvette's competition is, that doesn't make it any less true.
Seriously?
I got to give it to you....THIS is the most RIDICULOUS post ever.
I would love to see Tadge's face when you show him a picture of a Zonda and say: "Here's your target, how do you think you did?"
Last edited by jimmyb; 12-10-2018 at 02:34 PM.
12-10-2018, 02:36 PM
#1366
Melting Slicks
I am not opposed to continuing the C7 as a refreshed model. BUT, the mid-engine cannot be strictly a $169K model. As Tadge has famously said numerous times, Corvette HAS to pay it's way. GM spent $250 MILLION in R&D on the C7....how much do you think the mid-engine has cost? I promise you it's a hellava lot more than that. And that has to be paid back. And selling 2,000 of them a year (if they're lucky) at $169K ain't gonna do it. If GM could NET $40K per unit, that's $80 MILLION a year. I know a few here have this "halo" car fantasy that says the company is making it to stroke it's ego. "Viper was never intended to make money"....how many times is that nugget thrown around? If that's true, why doesn't FCA still make the Viper? Hint: Because it didn't MAKE MONEY.
12-10-2018, 02:36 PM
#1367
Team Owner
"Build Quality: In this category GM wins and loses. Fit, finish, and paint quality is often lacking and would easily place GM at the bottom...as assembly line quality is lacking in this regard. Lest we mention orange peel paint? On the flip side, GM has a rather large budget and tests their parts extensively so when it comes to reliability over many of their competitors, they are the tops. And their parts cost much less to replace, that's a nice bonus as well. Porsche would likely have the highest build quality on all respects with GM close behind in some aspects. But due to fit, finish, and paint issues, GM still finds itself lagging so again...middle aka medicre."
Have you ever seen the "paint quality" of a Ferrari? How about the leather that shrinks and the buttons that turn to mush?
I think you just like to type.
Have you ever seen the "paint quality" of a Ferrari? How about the leather that shrinks and the buttons that turn to mush?
I think you just like to type.
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jimmyb (12-10-2018)
12-10-2018, 02:41 PM
#1368
Melting Slicks
You're right, GM is projecting more than 33K ME cars annually, at least initially.
Yes, I know what you PMed me. I didn't find what you say you heard from a "supplier" source credible, and it doesn't synch with info I have from a more credible source. Moreover, there's no credible explanation for why you think this new FE would be any cheaper to manufacture than the ME version.
I do agree that BGA was expanded to accommodate future GM manufacturing plans, but those aren't in the execution phase yet.
Yes, I know what you PMed me. I didn't find what you say you heard from a "supplier" source credible, and it doesn't synch with info I have from a more credible source. Moreover, there's no credible explanation for why you think this new FE would be any cheaper to manufacture than the ME version.
I do agree that BGA was expanded to accommodate future GM manufacturing plans, but those aren't in the execution phase yet.
12-10-2018, 02:49 PM
#1369
16 Vettes and counting…..
Well...the C7 is devisive at least in the looks dept. There are a few basic categories to judge on sports cars: performance, appearance, interior, and build quality. Looks are quite debatable but generally even if you like the C7's looks most would not argue that it looks better than a Ferrari, Lamborghini, Bugatti, Koe****segg, Porsche, or Pagani among others. And that's it's competition. If you disagree, then the competition is the Challenger, Charger, Mustang, Stinger, M badges, and various medicore GT cars from around the globe. But those cars are really the competition of the Camaro so Ferrari and such it is. And when compared to all those German and Italian exotics, the looks of the C7 will be the tops for a few but middle to bottom for most. So looks: mediocre.
Performance: Same. It can run with many of the best, but not all. So let's pretend it can hang with a high end Porsche, fine. That's not a Zonda or a La Ferrari, it's not going to keep up with those. And rightly so, it costs a fraction. Regardless, it ends up in the middle. So...mediocre.
Interior: GM has never made a great interior in a car. The closest it gets is when it has farmed it out to the Australians. While some love there C7 interior, it is not high-end and this is generally accepted in the automotive world. And it's hard to keep up, especially when makers like Bugatti are creating interiors that cost more than the whole of the C7. So..mediocre to bottom on this one.
Build Quality: In this category GM wins and loses. Fit, finish, and paint quality is often lacking and would easily place GM at the bottom...as assembly line quality is lacking in this regard. Lest we mention orange peel paint? On the flip side, GM has a rather large budget and tests their parts extensively so when it comes to reliability over many of their competitors, they are the tops. And their parts cost much less to replace, that's a nice bonus as well. Porsche would likely have the highest build quality on all respects with GM close behind in some aspects. But due to fit, finish, and paint issues, GM still finds itself lagging so again...middle aka mediocre.
You don't have to like the above, and you don't have to agree about who the Corvette's competition is, that doesn't make it any less true.
Performance: Same. It can run with many of the best, but not all. So let's pretend it can hang with a high end Porsche, fine. That's not a Zonda or a La Ferrari, it's not going to keep up with those. And rightly so, it costs a fraction. Regardless, it ends up in the middle. So...mediocre.
Interior: GM has never made a great interior in a car. The closest it gets is when it has farmed it out to the Australians. While some love there C7 interior, it is not high-end and this is generally accepted in the automotive world. And it's hard to keep up, especially when makers like Bugatti are creating interiors that cost more than the whole of the C7. So..mediocre to bottom on this one.
Build Quality: In this category GM wins and loses. Fit, finish, and paint quality is often lacking and would easily place GM at the bottom...as assembly line quality is lacking in this regard. Lest we mention orange peel paint? On the flip side, GM has a rather large budget and tests their parts extensively so when it comes to reliability over many of their competitors, they are the tops. And their parts cost much less to replace, that's a nice bonus as well. Porsche would likely have the highest build quality on all respects with GM close behind in some aspects. But due to fit, finish, and paint issues, GM still finds itself lagging so again...middle aka mediocre.
You don't have to like the above, and you don't have to agree about who the Corvette's competition is, that doesn't make it any less true.
12-10-2018, 02:49 PM
#1370
If you like showing off to dudes I guess you can call it "Rear engine" but if you think the public has any idea the 911 has an engine in the back your dead wrong.
12-10-2018, 02:49 PM
#1371
12-10-2018, 02:57 PM
#1372
Melting Slicks
This all boils down to whether they build the ME only or they build both ME and FE. That is it in a nutshell. I'm betting on both going forward and you only the ME going forward. I've lived with both Corvettes and Ferrari's and I can tell you that ME's are not as practical as a FE. And therein lies the difference. GM has to have both to satisfy all lifestyles.
12-10-2018, 03:00 PM
#1373
Race Director
Jimmyb, if you have read our threads from the last year you would have realized that we are with you on most of the budget. I have pretty much settled into the 80k to 90k starting base price going all the way up to 190k plus or minus. The problem I've always had with some of you is the 5k to 10k over the C7 base Stingray mentality that some of you are pushing. I simply do not want GM to compromise the car to that lower standard. The C8 FE will take care of that lower end.
Can we agree that your price point ($80-$90K) is C7 Z06 price point?
Z06 (coupe and convertible) production by year:
2015: 8,653
2016: 14,275
2017: 7,273
The Z06 averaged 10,067 (coupe and convertible) units per year 2015-2017 (3 year total was 30,201 Z06's), but it is notable that 2016MY, and I think we would all agree, GM overproduced all Corvettes, to point out that 2016MY C7 Z06 is 47.2% of the 3 year total (14,275 units) and is not in keeping with the other 2 years.
So, is it realistic to say the mid-engine will be 16,000 units a year? That's doubling real Z06 numbers (2015, 2017)
Which means a refreshed C7 (C8FE?) has to sell 17,000 units a year to hit the 33,000 number thrown around by Kai Spande.
I don't know, just asking.
12-10-2018, 03:04 PM
#1374
What a completely stupid post. When you compare things they should be on a level playing field. You’ve picked nothing on the same playing field as the Corvette. Why? Because there really is nothing else in the Corvette price range that compares. That’s probably why it’s so successful and will continue in the same way. You show your ignorance more with every post.
12-10-2018, 03:04 PM
#1375
This all boils down to whether they build the ME only or they build both ME and FE. That is it in a nutshell. I'm betting on both going forward and you only the ME going forward. I've lived with both Corvettes and Ferrari's and I can tell you that ME's are not as practical as a FE. And therein lies the difference. GM has to have both to satisfy all lifestyles.
LOL. Well enjoy your opinion. Clearly Motor Trend, Road & Track, and every car magazine in the last 30 years is wrong. You seem to think that price is the most important factor, so...who do you place as Corvette's competitors? Base model 911s? Jaguar F-Type? M4? What other heavier cars with much higher quality interiors would you like to put it up against? Even against these, Corvette still finds the middle in most categories. Its not going to win on build quality and looks are so debatable. Performance? Sure, it's going to beat much of the competition in its price range. So, you want to say it has the best bang for the buck? Ok, I'll give you that. But a lot of buyers are looking for more than the best bang for their buck.
Last edited by Foosh; 12-10-2018 at 03:17 PM.
12-10-2018, 03:14 PM
#1376
Melting Slicks
OK.
Can we agree that your price point ($80-$90K) is C7 Z06 price point?
Z06 (coupe and convertible) production by year:
2015: 8,653
2016: 14,275
2017: 7,273
The Z06 averaged 10,067 (coupe and convertible) units per year 2015-2017 (3 year total was 30,201 Z06's), but it is notable that 2016MY, and I think we would all agree, GM overproduced all Corvettes, to point out that 2016MY C7 Z06 is 47.2% of the 3 year total (14,275 units) and is not in keeping with the other 2 years.
So, is it realistic to say the mid-engine will be 16,000 units a year? That's doubling real Z06 numbers (2015, 2017)
Which means a refreshed C7 (C8FE?) has to sell 17,000 units a year to hit the 33,000 number thrown around by Kai Spande.
I don't know, just asking.
Can we agree that your price point ($80-$90K) is C7 Z06 price point?
Z06 (coupe and convertible) production by year:
2015: 8,653
2016: 14,275
2017: 7,273
The Z06 averaged 10,067 (coupe and convertible) units per year 2015-2017 (3 year total was 30,201 Z06's), but it is notable that 2016MY, and I think we would all agree, GM overproduced all Corvettes, to point out that 2016MY C7 Z06 is 47.2% of the 3 year total (14,275 units) and is not in keeping with the other 2 years.
So, is it realistic to say the mid-engine will be 16,000 units a year? That's doubling real Z06 numbers (2015, 2017)
Which means a refreshed C7 (C8FE?) has to sell 17,000 units a year to hit the 33,000 number thrown around by Kai Spande.
I don't know, just asking.
12-10-2018, 03:20 PM
#1377
Sounds like it won't happen. They are not designing two new cars, and C7 demand is near the saturation point and falling. A refresh won't cut it.
Last edited by Foosh; 12-10-2018 at 03:23 PM.
12-10-2018, 03:35 PM
#1379
Since the Camaro entered rarified performance territory, I think GM brass has already questioned the need for two FE high performance cars. Since the Camaro brand is already well-established, it makes more sense to me to position it into the traditional Corvette FE segment. You can only sell so many sports cars, and it makes no sense to fragment that market further by now having 3.
Having been a senior corporate exec at a Fortune 500 company, and now providing independent oversight on the performance of an organization with an $18B annual operating budget, that's exactly the kind of question I ask.
Having been a senior corporate exec at a Fortune 500 company, and now providing independent oversight on the performance of an organization with an $18B annual operating budget, that's exactly the kind of question I ask.
Last edited by Foosh; 12-10-2018 at 03:46 PM.
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VETTE-NV (12-10-2018)
12-10-2018, 03:38 PM
#1380
Race Director