Corvette possibly in danger?
11-26-2018, 10:08 PM
#41
Le Mans Master
The Corvette would only be in danger if they priced it out of the reach of the traditional Corvette buyer. The plant closings have more to do about slow selling cars. The Impala and Cruz for instance have slowed way down in sales not only because of SUV's but also with the revised Malibu in 2016.
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11-26-2018, 10:29 PM
#42
Burning Brakes
Well, the CTS-V is already dying as the CT5 will roll out soon as its replacement(likely with more cabin room for the same money). Cadillac has been testing the CT4 and CT5 around the clock and I think that they’ll debut in New York alongside the C8. The CT5-V will probably be available for the 2022 model year, with the new 4.2L Blackwing V8. The C8 Z06 will come out before or alongside it with a somewhat similar price range.
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elegant (11-27-2018)
11-26-2018, 10:36 PM
#43
Le Mans Master
This is an interesting read on where GM is planning to take their vehicle architectures over the next few years. They're trying to consolidate down from about 26 vehicle platforms today, to 4 by 2025.
http://gmauthority.com/blog/2017/10/...-sets-by-2025/
It's worth noting that this project was started by Mary Barra when she was in charge of GM global product development. She knows exactly what it's going to take to implement it. Killing off the slow selling cars may just be an acceleration of this vehicle set strategy.
It's also worth noting that there's no VSS platform for "mid engine, rear drive" in that presentation. The traditional body on frame front engine Corvette doesn't fit in with the VSS-R concept either. Cars like Corvette could end up outside the mass market set strategies on truly dedicated, niche platforms. That could also be another explanation for why they spent so much money upgrading BGA. BGA could be positioned to build any number of niche cars that don't fall under the four main VSS platforms.
http://gmauthority.com/blog/2017/10/...-sets-by-2025/
It's worth noting that this project was started by Mary Barra when she was in charge of GM global product development. She knows exactly what it's going to take to implement it. Killing off the slow selling cars may just be an acceleration of this vehicle set strategy.
It's also worth noting that there's no VSS platform for "mid engine, rear drive" in that presentation. The traditional body on frame front engine Corvette doesn't fit in with the VSS-R concept either. Cars like Corvette could end up outside the mass market set strategies on truly dedicated, niche platforms. That could also be another explanation for why they spent so much money upgrading BGA. BGA could be positioned to build any number of niche cars that don't fall under the four main VSS platforms.
Last edited by Jeff V.; 11-26-2018 at 10:39 PM.
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11-27-2018, 12:18 AM
#44
Safety Car
Jeff V., thank you very much for providing us an excellent “background understanding” for where GM plans to be heading. I have read through the base document and the subsequent four documents, and all are very informative.
Your post/link is one of the most important posts we have read in a long time if we are to understand where GM is planning to go. At the same time, with the pace of change accelerating so greatly, even this document, as shown by today’s newest model extinctions, is already changing rapidly. e.g., as three specific examples, the death of the Cruze, the Impala and the CT6 sedan we were shown today (and we earlier started to see with the death of the Verano in 2017).
Nice to see what was intended, as long as we realize that while the basic concepts are valid, applicability to an individual model is already inaccurate, with further inaccuracies down the road highly probable.
And who knows, GM might now considerabling changem, maybe even scrap much of the VSS program, instead re-configuring whole sections of it based on combustion versus electric platform, e.g, the times they are a changing at massive speed.
Thank you again Jeff V for a great post!
Your post/link is one of the most important posts we have read in a long time if we are to understand where GM is planning to go. At the same time, with the pace of change accelerating so greatly, even this document, as shown by today’s newest model extinctions, is already changing rapidly. e.g., as three specific examples, the death of the Cruze, the Impala and the CT6 sedan we were shown today (and we earlier started to see with the death of the Verano in 2017).
Nice to see what was intended, as long as we realize that while the basic concepts are valid, applicability to an individual model is already inaccurate, with further inaccuracies down the road highly probable.
And who knows, GM might now considerabling changem, maybe even scrap much of the VSS program, instead re-configuring whole sections of it based on combustion versus electric platform, e.g, the times they are a changing at massive speed.
Thank you again Jeff V for a great post!
Last edited by elegant; 11-27-2018 at 12:18 AM.
11-27-2018, 01:20 AM
#45
GM's advertising is designed to try to reverse what most people's perception is of them. Look at what they talk about in the ads and you can see most of it is like "really? Well I would have never guessed!"
GM isn't trying to sell a specific car. They are trying to get people to believe something different than they believe about their products. That's why they do these.
GM isn't trying to sell a specific car. They are trying to get people to believe something different than they believe about their products. That's why they do these.
American car companies have been doing this for decades now.
11-27-2018, 01:23 AM
#46
16 Vettes and counting…..
Wrong. Cruising down the highway at 70 MPH I now get 30+ MPG in my C6 Z06. adding a Edelbrock supercharger will not alter that as it only has 1/3 HP parasitic draw when not in boost(like what happens when just cruising down the highway and not racing Camry's).
Plus I don't have to send clothes ahead to motels along the way via FedEx when I want to do a two week road trip, and I can find a gas station anywhere to get another 450 miles of driving pleasure. Adding a supercharger under the hood does not eliminate any of the 22 cubic feet of cargo space in the rear of my Z06 as does adding a huge battery to an EV Corvette.
Have you ever considered how much money will have to be spent building additional electrical powerplants, transmission lines, and local sub-stations etc if all the present 17 million vehicles sold each year in the US were charging their batteries? Currently, we have all the infrastructure in place and paid for to supply the gasoline to fuel those 17 million vehicles that Americans purchase each year.
All that money to supply that additional electricity will show up in your increased utility bill each month, beyond what you are paying today.
My local utility is city owned and back in 2010 added a new 300MW generating plant costing $697,100,000 for the construction and a total of $1,200,000,000 when including financing cost. That was based on our increased needs for electricity without proving electricity for all those wonderful EV's that you believe can be operated on the "cheap".
Now multiply that $1.2 billion times the numfber of additional plants that would be needed nationwide.
Plus I don't have to send clothes ahead to motels along the way via FedEx when I want to do a two week road trip, and I can find a gas station anywhere to get another 450 miles of driving pleasure. Adding a supercharger under the hood does not eliminate any of the 22 cubic feet of cargo space in the rear of my Z06 as does adding a huge battery to an EV Corvette.
Have you ever considered how much money will have to be spent building additional electrical powerplants, transmission lines, and local sub-stations etc if all the present 17 million vehicles sold each year in the US were charging their batteries? Currently, we have all the infrastructure in place and paid for to supply the gasoline to fuel those 17 million vehicles that Americans purchase each year.
All that money to supply that additional electricity will show up in your increased utility bill each month, beyond what you are paying today.
My local utility is city owned and back in 2010 added a new 300MW generating plant costing $697,100,000 for the construction and a total of $1,200,000,000 when including financing cost. That was based on our increased needs for electricity without proving electricity for all those wonderful EV's that you believe can be operated on the "cheap".
Now multiply that $1.2 billion times the numfber of additional plants that would be needed nationwide.
Jus imagine what the greatest car ever, Joe's C6 Z06, smells like after riding around with two weeks of his dirty underwear. "Driving pleasure" indeed.......
11-27-2018, 02:04 AM
#48
just finally got here tonight, what a day!! BC taking a dive that it can not recover from..its bitcoin brand may be completely shot after current events..... gm certainly not invest "hundreds of millions" in just the c8, they don't have that type of money to invest and a single car is not profit driven enough..... though the pull back does strongly suggest that the engine will be the v8 caddy turbo engine.. that would be my strong guess with this pull back..and the suspension sourced from as much of current (shared models) as possible.. with just the frame, body etc being special... sharing engine and electronics, stereo (only one agreement w HK, Bose, etc). .. gm will be in the KISS mode for the new c8... that is assured after this public outing...
so all the people that guessed (which I didn't) that it will be <100k .. think you won that bet.. and if the caddy v8 TT motor is real.. it will have that.. if its not real.. it will have the c7 motor..and that will be it for at least 5 years...
if you think about it.. since ford did their major pull back on models what.. 6 months ago.. now see gm pull back.. very interesting...
so all the people that guessed (which I didn't) that it will be <100k .. think you won that bet.. and if the caddy v8 TT motor is real.. it will have that.. if its not real.. it will have the c7 motor..and that will be it for at least 5 years...
if you think about it.. since ford did their major pull back on models what.. 6 months ago.. now see gm pull back.. very interesting...
11-27-2018, 02:11 AM
#49
This is an interesting read on where GM is planning to take their vehicle architectures over the next few years. They're trying to consolidate down from about 26 vehicle platforms today, to 4 by 2025.
http://gmauthority.com/blog/2017/10/...-sets-by-2025/
It's worth noting that this project was started by Mary Barra when she was in charge of GM global product development. She knows exactly what it's going to take to implement it. Killing off the slow selling cars may just be an acceleration of this vehicle set strategy.
It's also worth noting that there's no VSS platform for "mid engine, rear drive" in that presentation. The traditional body on frame front engine Corvette doesn't fit in with the VSS-R concept either. Cars like Corvette could end up outside the mass market set strategies on truly dedicated, niche platforms. That could also be another explanation for why they spent so much money upgrading BGA. BGA could be positioned to build any number of niche cars that don't fall under the four main VSS platforms.
http://gmauthority.com/blog/2017/10/...-sets-by-2025/
It's worth noting that this project was started by Mary Barra when she was in charge of GM global product development. She knows exactly what it's going to take to implement it. Killing off the slow selling cars may just be an acceleration of this vehicle set strategy.
It's also worth noting that there's no VSS platform for "mid engine, rear drive" in that presentation. The traditional body on frame front engine Corvette doesn't fit in with the VSS-R concept either. Cars like Corvette could end up outside the mass market set strategies on truly dedicated, niche platforms. That could also be another explanation for why they spent so much money upgrading BGA. BGA could be positioned to build any number of niche cars that don't fall under the four main VSS platforms.
well done... just like ford... its a new game.. much faster than anticipated ... we may see this from all the Mfg in the next 6 months.
11-27-2018, 02:12 AM
#50
11-27-2018, 02:16 AM
#51
Yeah, and Genovation also stuck an electric motor and a huge battery in a C6 Z06 and "proudly" acclaimed that it would do 200 MPH, and only cost $300,000.
Hell, GM said , back in 2005, that the new 2006 C6 Z06 could hit 198 MPH in 100% pure stock form, straight from the factory, for just $65,000.
I bet my C6 Z06, with it's CAI and high flow heads and a tune will get that additional 2 MPH so I can claim that my Z06 will do 200 MPH, and I did it for way less that the additional $235,000 that the EV C6 Z06 cost.
Even a 100% pure stock 2009 C6 ZR1 at $120,000 with a measly 638 HP will do 205 MPH.
Gee, I wonder what would happen if I spend an additional $10,000 for an 80 pound Edelbrock supercharger, and have 657+HP and still have a measly 3250 pounds of weight to accelerate to 200+ MPH.
Do you know what the top speed of a 2019 C7 ZR1 is, with it's 755 HP ICE?
Hell, GM said , back in 2005, that the new 2006 C6 Z06 could hit 198 MPH in 100% pure stock form, straight from the factory, for just $65,000.
I bet my C6 Z06, with it's CAI and high flow heads and a tune will get that additional 2 MPH so I can claim that my Z06 will do 200 MPH, and I did it for way less that the additional $235,000 that the EV C6 Z06 cost.
Even a 100% pure stock 2009 C6 ZR1 at $120,000 with a measly 638 HP will do 205 MPH.
Gee, I wonder what would happen if I spend an additional $10,000 for an 80 pound Edelbrock supercharger, and have 657+HP and still have a measly 3250 pounds of weight to accelerate to 200+ MPH.
Do you know what the top speed of a 2019 C7 ZR1 is, with it's 755 HP ICE?
or just 200k$ for a Tesla roadster that hits 8.9 in the 1320 and past 200mph.... 600 mile range...
11-27-2018, 02:18 AM
#52
11-27-2018, 02:24 AM
#53
I don't see how ceding the shrinking but still large compact and mid-size car markets to Toyota, Honda, Nissan, Hyundai, etc. is a good thing at all. There are still a hell of a lot of Civics, Altimas, Camry's etc sold and there will be for the foreseeable future.
And what will they be 100% reliant on until all these electric and autonomous vehicles reach the market? SUV's and pickups. Seems pretty risky as they will be one economic downturn or spike in oil prices away from another disaster. And the premise that they'll make up the volume with electric and autonomous? I'll believe it when I see it.
Ford, GM and Chrysler have finally raised the white flag and conceded defeat in large segments of the market. They are spinning this as a good thing when in fact it's actually very bad.
And what will they be 100% reliant on until all these electric and autonomous vehicles reach the market? SUV's and pickups. Seems pretty risky as they will be one economic downturn or spike in oil prices away from another disaster. And the premise that they'll make up the volume with electric and autonomous? I'll believe it when I see it.
Ford, GM and Chrysler have finally raised the white flag and conceded defeat in large segments of the market. They are spinning this as a good thing when in fact it's actually very bad.
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bebezote (11-27-2018)
11-27-2018, 03:35 AM
#54
Pro
GM, and all the U.S. automakers are probably just like many, many others in today's climate, are ... "Nervous" as heck about what each day may bring with the current administration in Washington D.C.!!! An economy that more and more looks ripe for a burst and meltdown, with a flat-out maniacal, impulsive leader at the helm, ...cannot inspire a lot of future confidence! Dropping all your family sedans, ... and cutting 6,000 jobs, ... just to turn around and flaunt a new low volume supercar, is pretty bad optics in my mind! ... ME hasn't been seen or heard from since Labor Day! ... hmmm?
Last edited by Stew24; 11-27-2018 at 03:41 AM.
11-27-2018, 03:45 AM
#55
GM, and all the U.S. automakers are probably just like many, many others in today's climate, are ... "Nervous" as heck about what each day may bring with the current administration in Washington D.C.!!! An economy that more and more looks ripe for a burst and meltdown, with a flat-out maniacal, impulsive leader at the helm, ...cannot inspire a lot of future confidence! Dropping all your family sedans, ... and cutting 6,000 jobs, ... just to turn around and flaunt a new low volume supercar, is pretty bad optics in my mind! ... ME hasn't been seen or heard from since Labor Day! ... hmmm?
Stew.. you were doing so good.. till you got political... your previous post was spot on.. I agree and think we may see a severe contracture in available models from all makes in the next 5 years (or less).. f150's and 1500 Silverados will be here forever.. then one sports car and one sedan per Mfg may be coming...sure seems that way.. w ford and gm news.
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vndkshn (11-27-2018)
11-27-2018, 08:06 AM
#56
Melting Slicks
11-27-2018, 08:41 AM
#57
Le Mans Master
GM, and all the U.S. automakers are probably just like many, many others in today's climate, are ... "Nervous" as heck about what each day may bring with the current administration in Washington D.C.!!! An economy that more and more looks ripe for a burst and meltdown, with a flat-out maniacal, impulsive leader at the helm, ...cannot inspire a lot of future confidence! Dropping all your family sedans, ... and cutting 6,000 jobs, ... just to turn around and flaunt a new low volume supercar, is pretty bad optics in my mind! ... ME hasn't been seen or heard from since Labor Day! ... hmmm?
11-27-2018, 09:46 AM
#58
Smokin' BBQ Member
be a nice day today, perfect opportunity to take the Sky Rocket 394 out and kill the environment.
11-27-2018, 10:13 AM
#59
Banned Scam/Spammer
Member Since: Sep 2016
Location: Philadelphia PA (Birthplace of the USA, UNESCO World Heritage City)
Posts: 4,004
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Yeah, and Genovation also stuck an electric motor and a huge battery in a C6 Z06 and "proudly" acclaimed that it would do 200 MPH, and only cost $300,000.
Hell, GM said , back in 2005, that the new 2006 C6 Z06 could hit 198 MPH in 100% pure stock form, straight from the factory, for just $65,000.
I bet my C6 Z06, with it's CAI and high flow heads and a tune will get that additional 2 MPH so I can claim that my Z06 will do 200 MPH, and I did it for way less that the additional $235,000 that the EV C6 Z06 cost.
Even a 100% pure stock 2009 C6 ZR1 at $120,000 with a measly 638 HP will do 205 MPH.
Gee, I wonder what would happen if I spend an additional $10,000 for an 80 pound Edelbrock supercharger, and have 657+HP and still have a measly 3250 pounds of weight to accelerate to 200+ MPH.
Do you know what the top speed of a 2019 C7 ZR1 is, with it's 755 HP ICE?
Hell, GM said , back in 2005, that the new 2006 C6 Z06 could hit 198 MPH in 100% pure stock form, straight from the factory, for just $65,000.
I bet my C6 Z06, with it's CAI and high flow heads and a tune will get that additional 2 MPH so I can claim that my Z06 will do 200 MPH, and I did it for way less that the additional $235,000 that the EV C6 Z06 cost.
Even a 100% pure stock 2009 C6 ZR1 at $120,000 with a measly 638 HP will do 205 MPH.
Gee, I wonder what would happen if I spend an additional $10,000 for an 80 pound Edelbrock supercharger, and have 657+HP and still have a measly 3250 pounds of weight to accelerate to 200+ MPH.
Do you know what the top speed of a 2019 C7 ZR1 is, with it's 755 HP ICE?
Btw, it exceeds 220mph ("The World’s First Street Legal Electric Car to Exceed 220mph"):
https://genovationcars.com/
Last edited by ArmchairArchitect; 11-27-2018 at 10:18 AM.
11-27-2018, 10:18 AM
#60
Melting Slicks
Exactly, and what he's not getting is that the Genovation GXE Corvette is a bespoke EV supercar with very low production #s. Pricing (at $750k, not $300k) is not out of line with other bespoke/super low production supercars, and this one is quite unique (an engineering marvel).
Btw, it exceeds 220mph ("The World’s First Street Legal Electric Car to Exceed 220mph"):
https://genovationcars.com/
Btw, it exceeds 220mph ("The World’s First Street Legal Electric Car to Exceed 220mph"):
https://genovationcars.com/
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ArmchairArchitect (11-27-2018)