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GM Authority: C8 Delayed 6 Months Over Electrical Issue

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GM Authority: C8 Delayed 6 Months Over Electrical Issue

 
Old 12-13-2018, 02:56 PM
  #101  
Foosh
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The above is true. I have also been researching this issue because I was thinking about replacing my current Jeep with a new Wrangler. I've also decided to wait as a result of the issues above.

Weirdly enough, my current '15 Cherokee Trailhawk has stop/start w/ one 12V battery, and it's been flawless. However, I did have to replace the battery at the 3-year mark.
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Old 12-13-2018, 03:00 PM
  #102  
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Originally Posted by tolnep View Post
this is what i think could be the issue. the new jeep wrangler comes with stop/start tech, the 2.0l turbo comes with some sort of belt start torque assist and requires a 48 volt battery. the 48 volt battery has some issues as it caused some jeeps stored on lots to catch fire. supposedly the 48 volt battery needs special cooling and heating and has lots of tubes running to it.

the jeeps that dont have the 48 volt battery have two batteries in the engine compartment to assist the stop/start. and if you check some of the jl wrangler forums, you we see there have been a ton of problems with the new wrangler associated with the electrical system. i had planned to add a wrangler to my personal cars but due to all the issues i have put it off.

jeep is adding some sort of stop/start or electric torque assist to all wranglers to address EPA requirements. perhaps gm is doing the same with the c8 and they have run into issues with battery capacity, and/or power distribution components like jeep.
I hear you.

This start/stop tech has to be some of the worst tech ever. In fact, everything these manufacturers seem to implement to meet EPA requirements is annoying, CAGS (1>4 skip shift), AFM, (v4 mode), which is supposedly responsible for the A8 torque converter shudder issues and this start/stop stop bologna has to be the most annoying thing ever created. It pains me to say it, but if all this fuels savings stuff is going to ruin the driving experience then I would just rather them stick a big battery and electric motor in it and call it a day.

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Old 12-13-2018, 03:06 PM
  #103  
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If this rig has stop/start I won't be buying it.
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Old 12-13-2018, 03:08 PM
  #104  
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Originally Posted by BLUE1972 View Post
That is the trend for the future - all sub assemblies electric instead of crank shaft driven. Enables faster 0-60 times with less HP as the components draw off the battery (s).

Right now most cars have: ELECTRIC STEERING, and some have electric brakes..
It's the electrically-driven alternator GM's reportedly struggling with.
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Old 12-13-2018, 03:11 PM
  #105  
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Originally Posted by OnPoint View Post
If this rig has stop/start I won't be buying it.
I don't understand why this can't be a configuration /preference item set by the owner. 2 second, 10 second, 30 second, or never.

buddy has to turn it off EVERY TIME he climbs into his truck. In Phoenix, 100+ degree weather, you don't want that AC switching to a reduced setting while you're sitting at a light.
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Old 12-13-2018, 03:22 PM
  #106  
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Originally Posted by The HACK View Post
WIRING does not make an electric vehicle heavy, the BATTERY makes an electrical vehicle heavy.
But that doesn't invalidate my point. The thick wire to carry the current for electric motors is both heavy AND expensive. Go back to the belief that the base car will be $60-67k (a belief I do not share mind you), then the financial aspect of that heavy and expensive cabling to support a hybrid system would make no sense to have in a version of the car that does not have hybrid drive. Assuming the statement of only the top tier version of the car having hybrid drive, it would make zero financial sense to have all cars wired for hybrid drive, even if they don't use it.

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Old 12-13-2018, 03:41 PM
  #107  
JerryU
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Originally Posted by Shaka View Post

"42V/14V-Bordnetz" (42V/14V PowerNet)….
Maybe they have this German system.
Good points. I recall our German plant would have to cover anything on a welder that a worker could be exposed to if over 42 volts. For example most US MIG wire feeders have the wire spool exposed. Depends on the power source but the OVC can be 60 volts. We had to make an enclosed version for them. Got very big!

That two volt approach remines me of my first car, a '41 Ford that I stuffed in an Olds engine. It had a 6 volt system and the starter had a hard time cracking the engine. A local company made a 6/12 volt battery and also a 12/24 used in trucks. For my car it looked like a 12 volt battery with two heavy terminals coming up from the center. The starter was the only thing connected to 12 volts when the batteries were in series. Then after starting a large solenoid put the two 6 volt batteries in parallel so the charging and all lights etc still worked on 6 volts.. Worked fine, just could not crack more than ~20 seconds or had to let the starter cool!

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Old 12-13-2018, 04:27 PM
  #108  
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Originally Posted by Tool Hoarder View Post
Could it be something else though? Not just a load requirement, but something to do with interference or systems communication (I only know the very basics of how to wire a race car and do basic house stuff w/o killing myself). If the car has start/stop crap, electric steering, electric AC and water pump and the new super rolling key encryption... is there something in all that that could go amiss under some unique condition and not just simply be a load issue?
Absolutely - that is much more likely than under estimating the electrical system load. The C8 electrical system will be a network of vendor supplied components and wiring harnesses. For build to print items, GM engineers will provide technical and MTBF requirements for each system component and then go out to bid. The chosen supplier will then design their electrical components to meet the GM spec. Additionally, there will be a number of COTS (consumer off the shelf) electrical components that are drop in components that work within the design.

Any one of those components (or sub-systems) could have early life failure issues. NOW is the time to find those failures.

If that is the case, one of GMs supplier is working round the clock and over the holidays to expedite the design improvement and get it back into production...This is all part of normal development process
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Old 12-13-2018, 04:30 PM
  #109  
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I hate to do the tin foil crap but with the current "response" from the community regarding pricing it wouldn't surprise me if they just badge/brand this thing as a Cadillac--

I guess Chevy didn't realize it's current "buyers" never "caught on" to the "fact" that you can't produce a mid engine rear mount car for 60k and now that they are all disappointing they may make some "other changes" at this point nothing would surprise me. There are only a few of us on here that realize a 720s killer for half the price would be GREAT-- but the consensus on here is "if it's not 60k I don't want it." I have a feeling they are going to go Cadillac on this one or just make one Zora model.. who knows.
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Old 12-13-2018, 04:34 PM
  #110  
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Originally Posted by wadenelson View Post
It's the electrically-driven alternator GM's reportedly struggling with.
Joke? How can you have an electrically driven alternator? Use battery power then make alternator spin to make power and self sustain? Perpetual motion motor!
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Old 12-13-2018, 04:38 PM
  #111  
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I worked on a processor team at Intel. You know the company who turns out quality products. One year back in the 2000’s we sent our latest processor for first stepping and when we received the first lot back it was DOA. Turned out after 16 months of design, modeling, CAD testing, etc. when the files went out for first proto an engineer had done the unthinkable, he had reversed power and ground in the layout...OOPs. SH.T happens even at the most innovative companies.

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Old 12-13-2018, 04:48 PM
  #112  
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Do we know when this problem was discovered? This week, last week, last month?
We've all known for at least a month (maybe more) that the car was NOT going to appear at Detroit in January. Now, the media outlets seem to be blaming the C8's absence on this problem.
I'm trying to get a time line...is it 6 months from yesterday? 6 months from last week? 6 months from last month?
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Old 12-13-2018, 04:51 PM
  #113  
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Originally Posted by Tool Hoarder View Post

Joke? How can you have an electrically driven alternator? Use battery power then make alternator spin to make power and self sustain? Perpetual motion motor!
They have a little TEENY alternator driven by the engine....to spin the BIG alternator so it can charge the battery....so the battery can then drive the BIG alternator sometimes....or something like that.

Hey, it could happen
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Old 12-13-2018, 05:00 PM
  #114  
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Originally Posted by ViperFan1 View Post
I hate to do the tin foil crap but with the current "response" from the community regarding pricing it wouldn't surprise me if they just badge/brand this thing as a Cadillac--

I guess Chevy didn't realize it's current "buyers" never "caught on" to the "fact" that you can't produce a mid engine rear mount car for 60k and now that they are all disappointing they may make some "other changes" at this point nothing would surprise me. There are only a few of us on here that realize a 720s killer for half the price would be GREAT-- but the consensus on here is "if it's not 60k I don't want it." I have a feeling they are going to go Cadillac on this one or just make one Zora model.. who knows.
You have no idea what you're talking about. Most rational folks expect more than $60K, but starting more in the $70K range based upon information shared recently with folks important to GM who've been invited to see the car. The McLaren killer ME model may well come in at about half that price, but that won't likely be the base ME.

Originally Posted by wadenelson View Post
I don't understand why this can't be a configuration /preference item set by the owner. 2 second, 10 second, 30 second, or never.

buddy has to turn it off EVERY TIME he climbs into his truck. In Phoenix, 100+ degree weather, you don't want that AC switching to a reduced setting while you're sitting at a light.
I've yet to see a start/stop system that didn't have a button to turn it off. But, default is on every time you start the car. That satisfies CAFE requirements, but allows the owner to easily defeat it if it is bothersome to some owners.

As I said I have it on my 15 Jeep and had it on my 14 Jaguar F-Type. Both work flawlessly, and restart is faster than you can move your foot from brake to throttle pedals. I've experimented with trying to race the system with a fast foot to throttle, and I've lost every time. Initially, I turned them off with an easy to reach console button, but eventually just left them on all the time because they work so well.

With regard to HVAC, if the system senses the need for cooling, the engine will restart so the condenser can run. On hot days with HVAC running the system often doesn't shut the car down at all even when on. Thus, that's another red herring.

Last edited by Foosh; 12-13-2018 at 05:47 PM.
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Old 12-13-2018, 05:06 PM
  #115  
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^^

Yep, can put the wife's BMW in Sport and it's off! Never do as like your's it flawless.

Think some folks have not driven a quality system

Those with automatics should be glad they don't they the old Caddy cylinder dropping system!

Like Cell phones, this do progress.

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Old 12-13-2018, 05:34 PM
  #116  
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Originally Posted by vndkshn View Post
But that doesn't invalidate my point. The thick wire to carry the current for electric motors is both heavy AND expensive. Go back to the belief that the base car will be $60-67k (a belief I do not share mind you), then the financial aspect of that heavy and expensive cabling to support a hybrid system would make no sense to have in a version of the car that does not have hybrid drive. Assuming the statement of only the top tier version of the car having hybrid drive, it would make zero financial sense to have all cars wired for hybrid drive, even if they don't use it.
I'm sure a lot of cheap light weight wires will be used with high current switch relays to cut cost and weight of heavy wires?

Last edited by ojm; 12-13-2018 at 05:36 PM.
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Old 12-13-2018, 05:37 PM
  #117  
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Agree 1000%. I will never buy any car that I cannot easily switch that crap off of.
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Old 12-13-2018, 05:44 PM
  #118  
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I neglected to mention that the start/stop systems on our cars have always required very firm pressure on the brake pedal to engage. I'm able to keep light pressure on the pedal, keep the car stopped, and the engine continues to run. I'm pretty sure they all work that way.

I think Jerry's right when he said most "haters" haven't had any experience with start/stop systems. I was a skeptic too in the beginning.

Last edited by Foosh; 12-13-2018 at 05:49 PM.
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Old 12-13-2018, 05:57 PM
  #119  
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Stop/start=sooner repairs, seems logical.
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Old 12-13-2018, 06:05 PM
  #120  
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They compensate w/ heavy duty starters rated for a much longer service life, and longer than 99.9% will own any vehicle. They've been around long enough now to be able to safely say they don't cause any significant problems with many equipped vehicles well over 100K miles.

Corvette will be one of the last to arrive at this party. 600HP Jaguars have been using them for nearly 5 MYs with no problems.

Last edited by Foosh; 12-13-2018 at 06:09 PM.
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