When you click on links to various merchants on this site and make a purchase, this can result in this site earning a commission. Affiliate programs and affiliations include, but are not limited to, the eBay Partner Network.
The late 60’s Eldorado/Toronado had the engine mounted normally in a fore aft configuration with the torque converter mounted on the back of the engine as was also normal. But the transmission was mounted beside the engine on the passenger side with the output shaft pointed towards the front. The torque converter drove the transmission via a special 2” chain. The transmission then connected to a differential that was mounted between the front wheels.
The reason a transaxle has the differential output stubs around the middle of the housing in a mid-engine configuration is for engine placement. If you put the differential at the rear of the transmission then you would have to move the engine forward (or the wheels backwards) 12 to 18 inches. Guess you could put the differential ahead of the transmission but then you would have issues of getting the power past the differential to the transmission and then back to the differential.
After owning a few Toronados and an Eldorado and wrenched on them, I'm pretty sure I'm very familiar with the arrangement. However, I'm not sure you understand it. The transaxles you're referring to in most mid-engine cars has the transmission fully behind the engine so that's where the differential is, behind the engine. Turbo 425 wraps around the driver's side (not passenger side) of the engine and the differential is located somewhere around the middle of the engine with one axle shaft bracket bolting to the passenger side of the engine to obtain equal length axle shafts. The engine would actually end up farther aft in that arrangement. You should really look up a picture of a Turbo 425 or the Toronado/Eldorado drivetrain before trying to have a discussion about them, try here: https://i1.wp.com/www.curbsideclassi...gine_trans.jpg
I'm really not sure what point you're trying to prove going down this rabbit hole, you're taking a very general statement I made and making a federal case out of it...Mueller???
Not with one stroke of the clutch pedal. Let me be more specific, air is not incompressible.
I mean it should... when my 84 had an air bubble in the line my clutch never disengaged until I got it out but that was a tiny bubble in a 3/8 line. Mine also never stuck to the floor because of it it was just spongy. Usually when something compresses your resulting pressure isn't enough to force whatever it is backwards. You use dot 3 because it is incompressable and develops a pressure differential to do work and the resulting force from the pressure plate returns the system to its resting psuedo steady state... at least that's my understanding. If you introduce air the fluid has some deal of compression... not disagreeing just seeing it differently.
But anyway... basically it gets air bound is what you're saying? It makes sense. I've never encountered it on mine but my clutch slave is mounted below everything... ie heat rises away from it.
I'm really not sure what point you're trying to prove going down this rabbit hole, you're taking a very general statement I made and making a federal case out of it...Mueller???
Point was that no existing GM transmissions would work in a ME Corvette. You made the case that they could be modified to work as in the Toronado but that is a whole different configuration.
I mean it should... when my 84 had an air bubble in the line my clutch never disengaged until I got it out but that was a tiny bubble in a 3/8 line. Mine also never stuck to the floor because of it it was just spongy. Usually when something compresses your resulting pressure isn't enough to force whatever it is backwards. You use dot 3 because it is incompressable and develops a pressure differential to do work and the resulting force from the pressure plate returns the system to its resting psuedo steady state... at least that's my understanding. If you introduce air the fluid has some deal of compression... not disagreeing just seeing it differently.
But anyway... basically it gets air bound is what you're saying? It makes sense. I've never encountered it on mine but my clutch slave is mounted below everything... ie heat rises away from it.
If you have just one air bubble, then yes the clutch will still disengage but the pedal will feel spongy. Have you ever watched water boil? It makes many air bubbles. It doesn't get air bound, the clutch master cylinder doesn't pump enough volume with one stroke to build any pressure and the clutch assist/return spring holds the clutch pedal on the floor because the pressure plate was never compressed...there's nothing pushing back on the clutch side and the very slight amount of pressure made by compressing the multitude of air bubbles isn't enough to bring the clutch pedal off the floor because the clutch assist/return spring is in the clutch assist position.
Your clutch slave on your '84 was also mounted outside of the bellhousing, the C5/6/7 has the clutch slave over the transmission input shaft inside of the bellhousing...right in the middle of all the heat.
Point was that no existing GM transmissions would work in a ME Corvette. You made the case that they could be modified to work as in the Toronado but that is a whole different configuration.
Mueller....ouch, that hurts.
The statement was made that a traditional longitudinal transmission couldn't be made to fit a ME application. The point is GM has already used an existing transmission and made it fit a longitudinal FWD application which is the same thing as a ME RWD configuration. Many people have used the Turbo 425 to make a front engine RWD car into a ME RWD car, it's a very easy swap. You're still trying to discount something that's already happened. Keep in mind I'm not saying it will happen or should happen, I'm just saying don't say it can't happen. Man's accomplishments are only limited by his imagination, saying it can't be done is an indication of a limited imagination.
If you have just one air bubble, then yes the clutch will still disengage but the pedal will feel spongy. Have you ever watched water boil? It makes many air bubbles. It doesn't get air bound, the clutch master cylinder doesn't pump enough volume with one stroke to build any pressure and the clutch assist/return spring holds the clutch pedal on the floor because the pressure plate was never compressed...there's nothing pushing back on the clutch side and the very slight amount of pressure made by compressing the multitude of air bubbles isn't enough to bring the clutch pedal off the floor because the clutch assist/return spring is in the clutch assist position.
Your clutch slave on your '84 was also mounted outside of the bellhousing, the C5/6/7 has the clutch slave over the transmission input shaft inside of the bellhousing...right in the middle of all the heat.
You're saying what I was thinking... the air is compressing... and because it is compressing there is no line pressure to return the clutch pedal. It isn't a matter of the air not compressing well like you said, it's the air compressing rather than having the incompressable brake fluid remain rigid... as in building pressure. We're saying the same thing.
Yes I've watched water boil. I've also watched sand "boil". I wasn't aware some brilliant engineer decided to throw a hydraulic actuator in the middle of a bellhousing when day one I was taught to keep all that crap as cool as possible. That's why our water bill at work is so high, all of our equipment runs off city water for cooling which cools the fluid 24/7. That isn't dot 3 though, its actual fluid oil and it has some different properties. It also runs at a few thousand psi not 100 or so that the pedal develops.
FWD is a very different situation than a mid engine car.
Many FWD drivetrains have been adapted to ME RWD cars even by manufacturers for production cars, they're exactly the same except for the steering rack for the ME car. The Pontiac Fiero is the first ME car that comes to mind, it used the complete FWD drivetrain and suspension from the FWD Chevrolet Citation including the tie rods/steering knuckles with the tie rods attached to the engine cradle instead of a steering rack. They're exactly the same situations except for the location of the drivetrain. Expand your imagination and knowledge...
...I wasn't aware some brilliant engineer decided to throw a hydraulic actuator in the middle of a bellhousing...
Exactly! It's ok for a low HP car that won't generate a significant amount of heat like the '94 Cavalier I had with 120 HP, but it has proven to be problematic on the Corvette. If you ever go to the Ron Fellows driving school at Spring Mountain Racetrack using Corvettes, the first thing they teach students is how to release the clutch with very little slippage.
Exactly! It's ok for a low HP car that won't generate a significant amount of heat like the '94 Cavalier I had with 120 HP, but it has proven to be problematic on the Corvette. If you ever go to the Ron Fellows driving school at Spring Mountain Racetrack using Corvettes, the first thing they teach students is how to release the clutch with very little slippage.
I only really slip mine on take off. Between gears time clutching is only around a second or so and I've got release timed pretty well with a natural rev match. (When spirited. Just normal driving like that results in a... rough shift to say the least but when you're pushing it it's fine.)
I've wanted to do a driving school but I know I'd never be able to take full advantage of a manual. I messed up my right ankle playing soccer and can't rotate it to do a heel toe shift. Among other things, if I push the car for an extended period of time I get sick because of the vertigo and motionsickness. Found that out driving those high speed short course indoor gokarts. Got a good feel for the track then laid into it and got halfway through a timed lap (at a really good pace too) and had to stop before I puked lol.
The statement was made that a traditional longitudinal transmission couldn't be made to fit a ME application. The point is GM has already used an existing transmission and made it fit a longitudinal FWD application which is the same thing as a ME RWD configuration. Many people have used the Turbo 425 to make a front engine RWD car into a ME RWD car, it's a very easy swap. You're still trying to discount something that's already happened. Keep in mind I'm not saying it will happen or should happen, I'm just saying don't say it can't happen. Man's accomplishments are only limited by his imagination, saying it can't be done is an indication of a limited imagination.
The Toronado achieved this by creating a U drivetrain and replaced the transmission tail shaft with a custom differential. The ME has the drivetrain running fore/aft. With a true transaxle you have the engine, bellhousing,and the combo transmission/differential. You could use a generic GM transmission and do something like the C7 rear setup. Have the transmission bolted directly to the differential and then bolt the engine directly to the transmission. But this would create a very long package requiring moving the engine forward or the wheels further back. One way around this would be to have the engine/bellhousing, then the differential, and the transmission hung out back. The power would be transmitted through the differential to the transmission and then back to the differential. But I do not believe that GM had a transmission that can make u-turn in power direction.
Many FWD drivetrains have been adapted to ME RWD cars even by manufacturers for production cars, they're exactly the same except for the steering rack for the ME car. The Pontiac Fiero is the first ME car that comes to mind, it used the complete FWD drivetrain and suspension from the FWD Chevrolet Citation including the tie rods/steering knuckles with the tie rods attached to the engine cradle instead of a steering rack. They're exactly the same situations except for the location of the drivetrain. Expand your imagination and knowledge...
Correct. But that mounts the engine cross ways, not fore/aft.
The Toronado achieved this by creating a U drivetrain...snip ...I do not believe that GM had a transmission that can make u-turn in power direction.
Everything in between my snip was just senseless posturing. However, the above shows just how ridiculous your thought process is...first you say they made a U drivetrain and then say they didn't.
Correct. But that mounts the engine cross ways, not fore/aft.
It's still a ME engine car because the engine is ahead of the rear axle, it doesn't matter which direction the engine is mounted. Many people don't know the Corvette has been a front mounted ME car for a long time, the engine is behind the front axle. At this point, you're just saying stupid things in an attempt to show I'm wrong...
Ferrari BB and TR config. Belt driven, not chains. It was a roll over car I purchased during the height of the Ferrari craze and restored it. (Grey market car that had to be sent back to Europe.) What a treacherous car that made a glorious sound. Lost my ***. Only recently creeping up in value, especially the last carburetor cars.
Everything in between my snip was just senseless posturing. However, the above shows just how ridiculous your thought process is...first you say they made a U drivetrain and then say they didn't.
Sorry, my bad. I should have been more specific. I should have specified a u-turn within the transmission. If you go external you could keep adding components and assemblies to your hearts desire and have the power doing circles all around the engine and car.
Note: let’s keep this civil and drop the name calling. Okay?
Ferrari BB and TR config. Belt driven, not chains. It was a roll over car I purchased during the height of the Ferrari craze and restored it. (Grey market car that had to be sent back to Europe.) What a treacherous car that made a glorious sound. Lost my ***. Only recently creeping up in value, especially the last carburetor cars.
Very cool engine. Wonder if it could be shoehorned into an old Porsche 914
12-19-2018, 09:10 AM
