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Unlikely base MEC using “upgraded LT1”

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Unlikely base MEC using “upgraded LT1”

 
Old 02-11-2019, 10:53 PM
  #581  
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Originally Posted by BEAR-AvHistory View Post
Why not? They sell 800,000 trucks & 51,000 Camaro's a year, the economy of scale is there. Bad business decisions on engine development & implementation in the past? The SBC is good enough lets ride it out till we can clear the Bailout while the rest of the worlds companies who had money to spend was converting to DOHC.

They have already sunk development costs in the 4.2 BlackWing being built in Bowling Green. They would have to be crazy not to leverage that work into a 5.0 - 5.5 Corvette engine.

The engine is going into series production which will drive the unit cost down. Cadillac said:

We expect the Blackwing motor to also be used in the 2020 Cadillac Escalade as well as in the high-performance version of the Cadillac CT5, potentially called CT5-V.
But they are already utilizing their EOS. In fact, their adding more pushrod motors to the truck line-up (6.6L) for 2020 like Ford, as mentioned earlier.

Sounds like Cadillac will be utilizing this across models, which would make more sense. If the CT6 gets another US green-light in June, Reuss said in January they have "another plant" in mind, IE- BG. Last year, Cadillac CEO said the Corvette will not be getting a Blackwing, as the Corvette “wants a different kind of character.” Of course, this could be a marketing ploy, but it seemed extremely direct.

My money is on two different named motors for base vs hi-po variant. Same as C5, C6, C7 did.
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Old 02-12-2019, 12:22 AM
  #582  
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Originally Posted by 16/C7Z View Post
Not one underhood shot.

Nobody agreeing on the exhaust note of the mules.

And why wouldn't Chevy throw a blockbuster move earth shattering TTV6 with 500 500 under the hood.

Remember base needs something to build on.

Next move up bigger turbos the. V8 TT for the upper level versions.

Just have that gut feeling the base engine will be a tech marvel not an NA V8. Definitely not a pushrod.

No way.
If its a V6 GM might as well just throw in the towel now. No one wants a V6 Corvette. Current Corvette owners really don't want a V6 (why would you want a heavier/bigger/more costly TT V6 when you can have a smaller/lighter NA V8 that makes the same amount of power???), Potential Corvette buyers won't be swayed by a V6 (there is nothing appealing about it), current import owners won't change their mind (its still a "chevy"). Lose/lose situation.
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Old 02-12-2019, 12:36 AM
  #583  
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Originally Posted by JerryU View Post
Not true for the example I gave where I got 1 1/2 to 2 mpg better mpg!
Not while using an engine making the same power. And even if that was true 1-2mpg is minuscule considering you cut the displacement in half.

The European car companies have been offering small cid engines for many years since they pay for their social programs with gas tax! Yep like some advocate, let those "rich folks that buy Ferrari's pay more for our "social programs." That ~$10/gallon they pay has nothing to do with the cost of gasoline! In addition many countries charge an annual car tax based on cid (although some have switched to amount of CO2 emissions like France and Germany!)
The only reason they use lower displacement engines is because of their engine displacement tax, and some countries tax power output as well. Diesel fuel is also cheaper than petrol over there making it more appealing to buy a turbo diesel car rather than a gas car.

Yep different engines are designed for different purposes as are gear ratios like the M7 C7 in my GS where 7th gear is a 0.48:1 ratio so can't just compare different cars or even the same cars with different engines.
Thats because the LT1 has enough part throttle low end torque to drive normally with a gear ratio like that where as some high strung 4 cylinders would be bogging and gasping for air. So the larger displacement gives it the advantage of being able to use a gear raito like that. Still a fair comparison if you ask me.
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Old 02-12-2019, 12:41 AM
  #584  
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Originally Posted by JD_AMG View Post
If its a V6 GM might as well just throw in the towel now. No one wants a V6 Corvette. Current Corvette owners really don't want a V6 (why would you want a heavier/bigger/more costly TT V6 when you can have a smaller/lighter NA V8 that makes the same amount of power???), Potential Corvette buyers won't be swayed by a V6 (there is nothing appealing about it), current import owners won't change their mind (its still a "chevy"). Lose/lose situation.
The base engine will have twins on it in a hot V config.

Now it's just a game to see if to keep people at bay they went 488 route and used a tiny v8 or said to hell with norm and went large V6 ala ford gt.

For the base car? Under 100k I think you'll see a TT V6 or 4.0 V8 TT. But it will be under pressure. No way it won't be. This is the biggest move this company has made with this car since it's inception. Or one could argue going I6 to V8.. full circle would be a hi tech 6 cylinder.

And if anyone thinks a V6 can't sound good go listen to exotic V6s. They can. And exhaust tuning can make it sound Better than a V8 imo.
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Old 02-12-2019, 12:41 AM
  #585  
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Originally Posted by BEAR-AvHistory View Post
Maybe as much pain as the Cadillac buyers getting Chevy motors.


Theres some irony there. One of the biggest complaints about the ATS-V was that it got a lame TT V6 instead of the LT1. Seriously look at any review of the car, the writer will comment that GM should have use the LT1. NO ONE complained about the Cadillac V cars using "Chevy" V8s - in fact that was one of their biggest selling points.

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Old 02-12-2019, 01:03 AM
  #586  
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Originally Posted by 16/C7Z View Post
The base engine will have twins on it in a hot V config.
Who told you this?
CAD drawings are showing an NA LT1 derivative



And if anyone thinks a V6 can't sound good go listen to exotic V6s. They can. And exhaust tuning can make it sound Better than a V8 imo.
I have yet to hear one that can come close to sounding as good as a V8. Have you heard the Voodoo in the GT350? Corsa exhaust on a Corvette?
Good luck finding a V6 that can sound this good

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Old 02-12-2019, 07:14 AM
  #587  
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Originally Posted by JD_AMG View Post
Not while using an engine making the same power. And even if that was true 1-2mpg is minuscule considering you cut the displacement in half.
My Answer: It's not IF, it happens every day with folks that have their LT1 go into V4 mode!

The only reason they use lower displacement engines is because of their engine displacement tax, ....

My Answer: Yep, will be the same here, emissions is driving engine selection not "I Must Have A Pushrod V8!" Heck I like V8's as well but I only get ~10 mpg cruising with my Street Rods 8.2 Liter BB! At WOT it goes from gas station to gas station (being tubbed the tank is small!)
Originally Posted by 16/C7Z View Post
The base engine will have twins on it in a hot V config.

Now it's just a game to see if to keep people at bay they went 488 route and used a tiny v8 or said to hell with norm and went large V6 ala ford gt.

For the base car? Under 100k I think you'll see a TT V6 or 4.0 V8 TT. But it will be under pressure. No way it won't be. This is the biggest move this company has made with this car since it's inception. Or one could argue going I6 to V8.. full circle would be a hi tech 6 cylinder.

And if anyone thinks a V6 can't sound good go listen to exotic V6s. They can. And exhaust tuning can make it sound Better than a V8 imo.
That engine sound of the C8's in Europe was no LT1 and sounded fine. As you say it will be either a V8 or V6 twin turbo, my "guess," probably a Blackwing V8 since "some folks must have a V8."

But I would be happy with one similar to the Ford GT Twin Turbo, Double Overhead Cam, 647 hp V6! Be even happier if it had in addition an F1 KERS type arragement!

SIDE BAR:
Much better than a Mary Barra EV! We need to get more than ~15% of the energy in gasoline reaching the rear wheels and ~1/3 of that going into heat when braking. We can do better and recover some of that braking energy.

Having just found that an Italian sedan, the Alfa Giulia,starting at $38,000 that currently can be purchased with a 2.9 Liter V6 putting out 505 hp will be getting an F1 KERS system and combined will have 641 hp, albeit for significantly more $$'s!) Sure don't want to pull up to a stoplight with the newest, best US Technology ME Vette with a pushrod engine!

GM's done a great engineering job with the LT1/4/5 getting high hp in a usable street engine with the same basic configuration and bore spacing as I had in my 265 cid ‘56 Chevy pushrod V8- but it's time for better technology.

Last edited by JerryU; 02-12-2019 at 10:38 AM.
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Old 02-12-2019, 07:41 AM
  #588  
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Originally Posted by BEAR-AvHistory View Post
Actually all it says its designed to run like a proper heavy truck engine. Low RPM grunt.
Who cares what its initial usage will be? Every size of big block and small block Chevy has been used in a truck, bus or motor home at one time or another. So have Ford's overhead cam engine, and Chrysler's revised "hemi".
Originally Posted by BEAR-AvHistory View Post
Godzilla in a Mustang give me a break. To heavy,
For what? Road racing?
The huge boost guys are rather fond of iron blocks....
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Old 02-12-2019, 09:51 AM
  #589  
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Originally Posted by JD_AMG View Post

Theres some irony there. One of the biggest complaints about the ATS-V was that it got a lame TT V6 instead of the LT1. Seriously look at any review of the car, the writer will comment that GM should have use the LT1. NO ONE complained about the Cadillac V cars using "Chevy" V8s - in fact that was one of their biggest selling points.
The biggest issue with the ATS-V's V6TT is reliability. Lots of lemon law buybacks and if you check out the ATS-V forums it's a horror show of problems with the turbos.

Makes me wary of the Blackwing and related V8TT designs.
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Old 02-12-2019, 02:01 PM
  #590  
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Originally Posted by JD_AMG View Post
If its a V6 GM might as well just throw in the towel now. No one wants a V6 Corvette. Current Corvette owners really don't want a V6 (why would you want a heavier/bigger/more costly TT V6 when you can have a smaller/lighter NA V8 that makes the same amount of power???), Potential Corvette buyers won't be swayed by a V6 (there is nothing appealing about it), current import owners won't change their mind (its still a "chevy"). Lose/lose situation.
Hey we finally agree on something, almost. Can't see a 6.2 N/A V8 but can't see a V6 anything.
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Old 02-12-2019, 02:09 PM
  #591  
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Originally Posted by Zaro Tundov View Post
The biggest issue with the ATS-V's V6TT is reliability. Lots of lemon law buybacks and if you check out the ATS-V forums it's a horror show of problems with the turbos.

Makes me wary of the Blackwing and related V8TT designs.
Do we know who designed the Blackwing? Its not like GM has not farmed out engine design before.
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Old 02-12-2019, 04:25 PM
  #592  
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Originally Posted by BEAR-AvHistory View Post
Hey we finally agree on something, almost. Can't see a 6.2 N/A V8 but can't see a V6 anything.
So, again I guess I'll ask: why should GM go to DOHC because everyone else is doing it, while retaining V8s in spite of most other companies giving them up in favor of FI 4s and 6s in performance applications?

My only point is "everyone else is doing it" isn;t really a good point.
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Old 02-12-2019, 04:56 PM
  #593  
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Originally Posted by jefnvk View Post
So, again I guess I'll ask: why should GM go to DOHC because everyone else is doing it, while retaining V8s in spite of most other companies giving them up in favor of FI 4s and 6s in performance applications?

My only point is "everyone else is doing it" isn't really a good point.
Agreed. If we had good parents, they probably asked at one time or another, "If your friends jumped off a cliff, does that mean you should do it too?"

Sadly, not everyone has good parents.
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Old 02-12-2019, 06:33 PM
  #594  
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Originally Posted by jefnvk View Post
So, again I guess I'll ask: why should GM go to DOHC because everyone else is doing it, while retaining V8s in spite of most other companies giving them up in favor of FI 4s and 6s in performance applications?

My only point is "everyone else is doing it" isn;t really a good point.
Not sure what you mean, give up the V8 & really put a hurt on the Corvette & use an I4 or V6 in its place?
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Old 02-12-2019, 11:15 PM
  #595  
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Originally Posted by Zaro Tundov View Post
The biggest issue with the ATS-V's V6TT is reliability. Lots of lemon law buybacks and if you check out the ATS-V forums it's a horror show of problems with the turbos.

Makes me wary of the Blackwing and related V8TT designs.

Im talking mostly about professional review of the car from like CarAndDriver or MotorTrend, not just what the owners are saying. They say something along the lines of "the TT V6 is alright but this should have been an LT1 or V8 derivative of it".
And I couldn't agree more. I was really excited to hear of the ATS-V coming out until I heard it wasn't a V8. They wanted to copy what the European competition was doing except they missed one the biggest things that could have had some owners swap over - the quality control. The quality isn't bad but its just not to the level of its competition, especially the interior. They should have gave it an LT1 and focused on making the interior really high quality - would have been a winner.

Originally Posted by JerryU View Post
My Answer: It's not IF, it happens every day with folks that have their LT1 go into V4 mode!
You misinterpreted what I was saying there. I fully believe the gas mileage, what I was saying was that even if the V4 mode was making the same power as the V8 mode(which its not) the 1-2mpg improvement is still minuscule. What I was getting at is if you build a small displacement 4 cylinder to try and make the same power as a larger displacement V8 the 4 cylinder is going to so high strung that its going to compromise gas mileage and that negates the point of using a small displacement 4 cylinder in this example then. A perfect example that I brought up earlier is the S2000, its only making a measly 240hp but the 2L I4 is so high strung that it gets worse gas mileage than a 5.7L 405hp V8 Corvette.


My Answer: Yep, will be the same here, emissions is driving engine selection not "I Must Have A Pushrod V8!"
Right and im saying in high performance applications a large displacement V8 often gets better gas mileage than a small displacement engine making the same power.
Look at my post above with the gas mileage comparison where the Corvette gets better gas mileage than anything near its power level despite having a bigger displacement pushrod engine.

Heck I like V8's as well but I only get ~10 mpg cruising with my Street Rods 8.2 Liter BB! At WOT it goes from gas station to gas station (being tubbed the tank is small!)
Put a 10 speed auto behind that and watch the gas mileage sky rocket. What kind of power are you making with that BB? Do you think a car with equal power and equal # of gears with a smaller displacement engine would get much better (if any) gas mileage?

That engine sound of the C8's in Europe was no LT1 and sounded fine. As you say it will be either a V8 or V6 twin turbo, my "guess," probably a Blackwing V8 since "some folks must have aV8."
Sure sounds like an LT1 to me...



Having just found that an Italian sedan, the Alfa Giulia,starting at $38,000 that currently can be purchased with a 2.9 Liter V6 putting out 505 hp will be getting an F1 KERS system and combined will have 641 hp, albeit for significantly more $$'s!) Sure don't want to pull up to a stoplight with the newest, best US Technology ME Vette with a pushrod engine!
Gm was doing 505hp back in 2006 with a smaller, lighter (and probably cheaper too) pushrod engine without the use of FI.
I wouldn't be worried pulling up next to an Alfa in the new ME Covette with a pushrod engine, the more expensive (and probably slower still) Alfa will more than likely throw a check engine light and break down before it makes it off the line.

GM's done a great engineering job with the LT1/4/5 getting high hp in a usable street engine with the same basic configuration and bore spacing as I had in my 265 cid ‘56 Chevy pushrod V8- but it's time for better technology.
If they can make the engine as small/light as the pushrod variants while also remaining as cheap, reliable and easy to work on then Im all for it. But Im just not seeing it.
I think its more time for you to open your eyes and see the reality in front of you, tiny lightweight compact power:


And incase you missed my previous post:
https://www.corvetteforum.com/forums...post1598791689
All those smaller displacement DOHC V8s pictured are bigger, heavier and make less power. Why would you want that?

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Old 02-12-2019, 11:18 PM
  #596  
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Originally Posted by BEAR-AvHistory View Post
Not sure what you mean, give up the V8 & really put a hurt on the Corvette & use an I4 or V6 in its place?
Hes saying you are being a hypocrite because you say that the Corvette should go DOHC "because everyone else is doing it" but it shouldn't go to a V6, even though "everyone else is doing it".
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Old 02-12-2019, 11:59 PM
  #597  
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Originally Posted by JD_AMG View Post
Gm was doing 505hp back in 2006 with a smaller, lighter (and probably cheaper too) pushrod engine without the use of FI.
I was referring to street capable engines. Yep the 4 cylinder Offy produced that much power in the 1950's (but it had 4 valves per cylinder and double overhead cams!) The current F1 engine is 1.6 Liters and is producing over 800 hp! AA Fuel Funny cars get ~10,000 hp from 500 cid - with pushrods! Yep can do lots of things with race engines.

Notice from published info you're 32. Have lots of time to build what you want with a pushrod engine as that is the only way your going to get one very soon! I have done that over the years. Suggest you could start with a 572 cid Chevy Crate motor, streetable at 625 NA hp! :yesnod

Top Pic is the '41 I built while in High School. Had the 303 '50 Olds bored for '55 pistons to 324 cid. Not pretty but all paid for by my part time job and was very fast, my objective.
Bottom pic is what I built 19 years ago when I retired (well semi, still have an Internet business that pays for my car toys!) That 502/502 Crate motor came unassembled in boxes. $6000 at my local Chevy dealer! That is a very ridged TCI Chassis. Still taking home trophies!




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Old 02-13-2019, 12:20 AM
  #598  
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that is cool high school setup. thanks for sharing.. My project in high school wasn't as fun.. we had....




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Old 02-13-2019, 01:13 AM
  #599  
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Originally Posted by JD_AMG View Post
Hes saying you are being a hypocrite because you say that the Corvette should go DOHC "because everyone else is doing it" but it shouldn't go to a V6, even though "everyone else is doing it".

Interesting. First I am saying Corvette should go V8T DOHC because its a proven technology. It can generate significant power, as much or more then they have now, will most likely be lighter then the LT, meeting governments ever tightness standards & still remain true to Corvettes V8 heritage since 1955 when they converted & moved up from the I6. Not just because everybody else does it. Its a what the market expects not because of what the other manufacturer is doing. I think its safe to say the Corvette market expects a V8 powered car.

I am sure he must realize that just about everyone in the StingRays base price of $56,000 & past the StingRays ZR1's $123,000 base & up are not moving to I4 DOHC & V6 DOHC engines. Most the premium & Luxury cars offer V8/V10/V12 DOHC engines for their upper product lines. StingRay is the top of Chevys product line & the top sports model of GM.

BMW has DOHC V8/V12, Audi V8/V10 DOHC. MB V8/V12 DOHC, Lexus V8 DOHC in their upper price ranges. The list can get long & boring but the trend except for the FORD GT 3.5L V6 DOHC 547HP & NSX 3.5L V6 DOHC + two electric motors 573HP are V8 DOHC or better.

At the Toyota, Honda, KIA, Acura general sub compact & compact level the I4T DOHC & the V6 DOHC are pretty standard. The lower ends of the Premium/Luxury brands also offer I4 V6 I6 DOHC engines because the cars are less expensive & the engines cheaper to make. These brands offer a full buying range of cars & develop power packs to suit their place in the market. Most top out around $50K at the lower end. Some entry luxury up to $60K.

BTW there is no movement to I4 I6 & V6 DOHC engines in many of these brands since they started at that level & moved the other way up to the V8's & higher etc.

What he maybe confusing which & why I did not understand the question is I agree in the Economy & mid level compact segment everybody is pretty much building I4 DOHC & V6 DOHC. I thought he was suggesting doing an FORD GT or NSX power package. The power is there but the V8 rumble & image is not.

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Old 02-13-2019, 04:16 AM
  #600  
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You know, the V-8 has had its run. Given where CO2 emissions need to go in the next decade, I really do think we are headed toward EV's and much smaller displacement in the near term. If that is where this is all headed, then I think the drivetrain to look at is the 2019 Mercedes CLS DOHC I-6 with a 48V Integral Starter-Generator motor tied directly to the flywheel. Regenerative braking can feed energy right into the 48V bus and be used to spin both the axles and the engine as required, with a large plug-in Li-Ion battery to buffer it all. In this setup, the IC engine only comes on when needed.

With a single DOHC head, the power to weight will be much better than any V-engine. As a result, I wonder if GM should even waste its time on a V-6 or V-8 DOHC that is not a hybrid ? It's economic life may be less tha 5-10 years.

Ultimately, as shown by the good old Miller/ Offenhauser, the optimum IC engine configuration for simplicity, emissions and power/weight is a forced induction DOHC high power I-4, like the new 2.7L Silverado engine. Increase displacement to 3.0-3.5 L and add an Integral Starter-Generator, and I'll bet you that is what we will ALL be driving in 10 years - even in a Corvette.

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