Unlikely base MEC using “upgraded LT1”
#61
Race Director
Just shooting the breeze..can anyone tell us the replacement cost for a mercedes amg gts engine?
great tech...but how much does it actually cost to replace one of these twin turbo hot V v8 from mercedes benz?
did a quick google and is this accurate for a 2000 mile used engine...? And if so how much is a new one from germany?
https://www.ebay.com/i/253354074254?...176000ffe3ad85
I kind of prefer the cost structure on the possible 520 hp lt1 derivative.
great tech...but how much does it actually cost to replace one of these twin turbo hot V v8 from mercedes benz?
did a quick google and is this accurate for a 2000 mile used engine...? And if so how much is a new one from germany?
https://www.ebay.com/i/253354074254?...176000ffe3ad85
I kind of prefer the cost structure on the possible 520 hp lt1 derivative.
Last edited by JerriVette; 12-25-2018 at 11:52 PM.
#62
Le Mans Master
Bob Lutz predicts pricing close will be to the C7, higher hp six-figure versions to follow.
https://www.autoblog.com/2018/12/23/...-launch-rumor/
https://www.autoblog.com/2018/12/23/...-launch-rumor/
#63
Race Director
Not to sound like a dick...but a 100k miles isnt that much to me as i use these cars as daily drivers....
if i need an lt1 derivative replaced...its like 10 or 12 grand installed tops...
jere is an interesting story about an amg owner getting an estimate on replacing his amg v8...
https://www.caranddriver.com/news/a1...mself-at-home/
take your heart medication before clicking on that link
if i need an lt1 derivative replaced...its like 10 or 12 grand installed tops...
jere is an interesting story about an amg owner getting an estimate on replacing his amg v8...
https://www.caranddriver.com/news/a1...mself-at-home/
take your heart medication before clicking on that link
#64
Christmas facts:
The list of the most Durable auto engines in the world as rated by consumers with the fewest engine problems is absolutely dominated by Dohc engines. I didn’t bother going far enough down the list to find a manufacturer that uses pushrod engines.
The list of the most hp/liter is dominated by dohc engines. Why does this matter? Because the stupid argument that pushrod engines are lighter only works if comparing same displacement.
Some seem to think smaller displacement dohc engines need forced induction to make hp. Um, see Ferrari.
There is A 2004 interview with a GM engineer who claimed that it would cost GM $400 per unit over the price of their pushrod engines to go to dohc. This number did seem of concern though. I’ll look for the interview and post if I can find it.
Merry Christmas!!
The list of the most Durable auto engines in the world as rated by consumers with the fewest engine problems is absolutely dominated by Dohc engines. I didn’t bother going far enough down the list to find a manufacturer that uses pushrod engines.
The list of the most hp/liter is dominated by dohc engines. Why does this matter? Because the stupid argument that pushrod engines are lighter only works if comparing same displacement.
Some seem to think smaller displacement dohc engines need forced induction to make hp. Um, see Ferrari.
There is A 2004 interview with a GM engineer who claimed that it would cost GM $400 per unit over the price of their pushrod engines to go to dohc. This number did seem of concern though. I’ll look for the interview and post if I can find it.
Merry Christmas!!
The list of the most Durable auto engines in the world as rated by consumers with the fewest engine problems is absolutely dominated by Dohc engines
The list of the most hp/liter is dominated by dohc engines. Why does this matter? Because the stupid argument that pushrod engines are lighter only works if comparing same displacement.
And before you start trying to quote weights, keep in mind that GM likes to weigh their engines with the 60lbs clutch assembly attached. The LSx family is under 400lbs undressed... That is in the range of smaller displaced aluminum DOHC V6s that make a fraction of the power and are still physically bigger...
Heres another good size example, how about a big ole 6.2L next to a 1.8L I4?
Whoops looks like the pushrod engine is comparable in size while making over double the power and torque.
Some seem to think smaller displacement dohc engines need forced induction to make hp. Um, see Ferrari.
But in all seriousness, look at the cost of those NA engines spinning to the moon to make power. Yea I think Ill take the significantly cheaper/smaller/lighter pushrod V8 that only needs to rev to ~6500rpms to make power and doesn't need a rebuild every 20K miles.
There is A 2004 interview with a GM engineer who claimed that it would cost GM $400 per unit over the price of their pushrod engines to go to dohc. This number did seem of concern though. I’ll look for the interview and post if I can find it.
https://www.caranddriver.com/feature...-gets-its-due/
#65
Le Mans Master
Not to sound like a dick...but a 100k miles isnt that much to me as i use these cars as daily drivers....
if i need an lt1 derivative replaced...its like 10 or 12 grand installed tops...
jere is an interesting story about an amg owner getting an estimate on replacing his amg v8...
https://www.caranddriver.com/news/a1...mself-at-home/
take your heart medication before clicking on that link
if i need an lt1 derivative replaced...its like 10 or 12 grand installed tops...
jere is an interesting story about an amg owner getting an estimate on replacing his amg v8...
https://www.caranddriver.com/news/a1...mself-at-home/
take your heart medication before clicking on that link
Tadge mentioned that to replace the fuel gage sensor on a C7 would run about $4K in labor (remove engine/torque tube/transmission to remove gas tank).
Last edited by range96; 12-26-2018 at 01:28 AM.
#66
My point wasn't price, it was performance per liter.
I guess we got some Rudy Giulianis around here...
I guess we got some Rudy Giulianis around here...
#67
Le Mans Master
Something you may want to read.
https://www.corvetteactioncenter.com...t5-engine.html
A 7L LT5 would be significantly bigger and heavier (and more expensive) than an LS7.
https://www.corvetteactioncenter.com...t5-engine.html
A 7L LT5 would be significantly bigger and heavier (and more expensive) than an LS7.
And they have blown the doors off an LS-7.
#68
#69
Le Mans Master
No one denies HP per liter will be better with a dohc engine. But that is really a meaningless stat if there are no gov regs pushing you that way.
Now in theory you could drop to a v6 NA dohc to make the same PEAK HP as the LT and save a few pounds but now you lost all the low end torque and killed the street driving experience. But the big issue with that is it does not fit the corvette from a marketing standpoint and you will not see GM go this route for the base car. You may see it in the later years with an electric front axle as some hybrid variant along side the base model.
Now in theory you could drop to a v6 NA dohc to make the same PEAK HP as the LT and save a few pounds but now you lost all the low end torque and killed the street driving experience. But the big issue with that is it does not fit the corvette from a marketing standpoint and you will not see GM go this route for the base car. You may see it in the later years with an electric front axle as some hybrid variant along side the base model.
#70
Le Mans Master
Yes and my point is that increasing its displacement does nothing in terms of “adding” weight. And a 5.7 L LT-5 NA could be built to surpass the output of a 7L LS-7. Oh and it wouldn’t drop any valves either. No need to talk about where the reliability was. The ad above says it all.
Last edited by Dominic Sorresso; 12-26-2018 at 10:58 AM.
#71
Team Owner
Yes and my point is that increasing its displacement does nothing in terms of “adding” weight. And a 5.7 L LT-5 NA could be built to surpass the output of a 7L LS-7. Oh and it wouldn’t drop any valves either. No need to talk about where the reliability was. The ad above says it all.
#72
FWIW, back-in-the-day I bought new a 1996 Mustang Cobra with a 4.6L DOHC that made 305hp and 305lbs (big numbers for the time).
After some aftermarket exhaust work, it was the most awesome sounding American V8 I have ever heard.
NO govt. regs forced Ford to make that engine back then.
Now in theory you could drop to a v6 NA dohc to make the same PEAK HP as the LT and save a few pounds but now you lost all the low end torque and killed the street driving experience. But the big issue with that is it does not fit the corvette from a marketing standpoint and you will not see GM go this route for the base car. You may see it in the later years with an electric front axle as some hybrid variant along side the base model.
Most manufacturers that are doing high-powered hybrids are using small V6 turbos, rather than NAs.
The one that stands out in my mind as an exception is the La Ferrari with its V12.
#73
Lots of good points on the virtues of both valve trains. However, this is going to be GM's halo car and as such it has to match up to the perception of what is the best type of engine design. If you asked a 100 random people (who had an opinion) of which design represents the most forward thinking, the DOHC would be the design selected by the vast majority of them. Regardless of all the virtues of a cam-in-block design, people perceive them as more pedestrian than a DHOC engine and they would likely point to all the supercars that have chosen to have the cams in the head. They won't recall the fact the OHC design dates back 100 plus years. They will recall that as engines evolved the valve actuation moved to the heads. Will GM put a LT engine in the base model? Probably. And you can guarantee that every magazine story will have half a paragraph explaining why that design was chosen. And most people will perceive the car to be lacking a "proper" motor until the "Cadillac" motor becomes available. And by that point the C8 will be yesterday's news. Like it or not, perception is reality.
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#74
Sales and performance matter more than perception. Keeping Corvette a budget performer has been the key to its continuing success. You just can't sell many $100K 2-seat sports cars, certainly not more than 10-15K annually, worldwide. GM has been incredibly successful w/ a "halo" car starting at around $60K, regardless of the "elite" looking down their noses at its "inferiority." It's gained far more favorable publicity based upon how much "bang for buck" it delivers.
It would make no sense for GM mgmt to deviate from that successful strategy, but it's always possible. I've seen other corporate mgmt. teams lose their collective minds before, and suffer severe consequences as a result.
It would make no sense for GM mgmt to deviate from that successful strategy, but it's always possible. I've seen other corporate mgmt. teams lose their collective minds before, and suffer severe consequences as a result.
Last edited by Foosh; 12-26-2018 at 04:36 PM.
#75
Burning Brakes
For a young person to be driving a vette you need the perfect storm:
1. Need the income
2. Need to not have baggage, i.e. kids, student loan debt, etc.
3. Be into sports cars
4. And if they like sports cars then ACTUALLY like the vette
How the hell does having some particular engine suddenly change any of the above??? Maybe a negligible influence on #4??
Last edited by bgspot; 12-26-2018 at 05:16 PM.
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jefnvk (12-28-2018)
#76
Originally Posted by sunsalem
My point wasn't price, it was performance per liter.
Yes and my point is that increasing its displacement does nothing in terms of “adding” weight. And a 5.7 L LT-5 NA could be built to surpass the output of a 7L LS-7. Oh and it wouldn’t drop any valves either. No need to talk about where the reliability was. The ad above says it all.
Originally Posted by sunsalem
FWIW, back-in-the-day I bought new a 1996 Mustang Cobra with a 4.6L DOHC that made 305hp and 305lbs (big numbers for the time).
After some aftermarket exhaust work, it was the most awesome sounding American V8 I have ever heard.
NO govt. regs forced Ford to make that engine back then.
After some aftermarket exhaust work, it was the most awesome sounding American V8 I have ever heard.
NO govt. regs forced Ford to make that engine back then.
http://i239.photobucket.com/albums/f...02vs46dohc.jpg
And look at the difference of the LS7 compared to the terminator V8. A little over 400hp with a supercharger and its massive and heavy while the little LS7 is making 500+hp. Which would you rather have in your sports car? A small lightweight V8 that makes more power or a big heavy V8 that makes less power?
https://ls1tech.com/forums/attachmen...3&d=1501791986
Sorry the pushrod V8 wins this one again.
Originally Posted by golden2husky
Lots of good points on the virtues of both valve trains. However, this is going to be GM's halo car and as such it has to match up to the perception of what is the best type of engine design. If you asked a 100 random people (who had an opinion) of which design represents the most forward thinking, the DOHC would be the design selected by the vast majority of them. Regardless of all the virtues of a cam-in-block design, people perceive them as more pedestrian than a DHOC engine and they would likely point to all the supercars that have chosen to have the cams in the head. They won't recall the fact the OHC design dates back 100 plus years. They will recall that as engines evolved the valve actuation moved to the heads. Will GM put a LT engine in the base model? Probably. And you can guarantee that every magazine story will have half a paragraph explaining why that design was chosen. And most people will perceive the car to be lacking a "proper" motor until the "Cadillac" motor becomes available. And by that point the C8 will be yesterday's news. Like it or not, perception is reality.
For the base car making ~500hp goal I don't see any advantages in using a DOHC V8 over the LT1. The LT1 will be smaller, lighter (despite the DOHC being smaller displacement, the LSx family is comparable in size to a 4L 1UZ DOHC V8), and cheaper, all of which adding to the result of a better driving sports car. For something like 650+hp and staying NA then sure at that power level a DOHC V8 would be reasonable as it would be tougher making a pushrod engine pass emissions and meet NVH requirements at that kind of power level without going to bigger displacement. But that is at a significantly higher power level and staying NA. Id rather have a lighter TT pushrod V8 for that kind of power.
#77
16 Vettes and counting…..
Not to sound like a dick...but a 100k miles isnt that much to me as i use these cars as daily drivers....
if i need an lt1 derivative replaced...its like 10 or 12 grand installed tops...
jere is an interesting story about an amg owner getting an estimate on replacing his amg v8...
https://www.caranddriver.com/news/a1...mself-at-home/
take your heart medication before clicking on that link
if i need an lt1 derivative replaced...its like 10 or 12 grand installed tops...
jere is an interesting story about an amg owner getting an estimate on replacing his amg v8...
https://www.caranddriver.com/news/a1...mself-at-home/
take your heart medication before clicking on that link
That's crazy money but it doesn't surprise me. A couple years ago I had a 550SL for six months. During that time, it was in the shop 10 times and racked up $22K in repairs.....and these were minor things, not engine or transmission. I sold it before the warranty expired and bought a 2017 GS. I can only imagine what that thing would have cost me if I'd kept it. It was a spectacular car, but a complete POS as far as reliability is concerned.
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JerriVette (12-26-2018)
#78
Safety Car
Much cheaper for an OHV motor to be repaired/replaced. I believe I remember somewhere that a Chevy OHV V8 averages 800 fewer parts than a 32V, DOHC TT motor.
BTW, we have seen a C7 invoice that showed $17,000 for a completely new LT1 (including removing of the lunch one, install of the new one). And in comparison an LT4 replacement with a new one is $30K.
Wonder what a C8 Z06 TT, DOHC, 32V motor would cost if a new one were needed? For sure however, less than an exotic’s comparable motor by far.
BTW, we have seen a C7 invoice that showed $17,000 for a completely new LT1 (including removing of the lunch one, install of the new one). And in comparison an LT4 replacement with a new one is $30K.
Wonder what a C8 Z06 TT, DOHC, 32V motor would cost if a new one were needed? For sure however, less than an exotic’s comparable motor by far.
Last edited by elegant; 12-26-2018 at 06:28 PM.
#79
Race Director
I think the estimate is a little high for a brand new LT1....dry sump
https://www.jegs.com/i/Chevrolet-Per...29997/10002/-1
and the lt4 is
https://www.jegs.com/i/Chevrolet-Per...32702/10002/-1 14 grand
https://www.jegs.com/i/Chevrolet-Per...29997/10002/-1
and the lt4 is
https://www.jegs.com/i/Chevrolet-Per...32702/10002/-1 14 grand
Last edited by JerriVette; 12-26-2018 at 07:29 PM.
#80
Race Director
Much cheaper for an OHV motor to be repaired/replaced. I believe I remember somewhere that a Chevy OHV V8 averages 800 fewer parts than a 32V, DOHC TT motor.
BTW, we have seen a C7 invoice that showed $17,000 for a completely new LT1 (including removing of the lunch one, install of the new one). And in comparison an LT4 replacement with a new one is $30K.
Wonder what a C8 Z06 TT, DOHC, 32V motor would cost if a new one were needed? For sure however, less than an exotic’s comparable motor by far.
BTW, we have seen a C7 invoice that showed $17,000 for a completely new LT1 (including removing of the lunch one, install of the new one). And in comparison an LT4 replacement with a new one is $30K.
Wonder what a C8 Z06 TT, DOHC, 32V motor would cost if a new one were needed? For sure however, less than an exotic’s comparable motor by far.
I think the estimate is a little high for a brand new LT1....dry sump
https://www.jegs.com/i/Chevrolet-Per...29997/10002/-1
and the lt4 is
https://www.jegs.com/i/Chevrolet-Per...32702/10002/-1 14 grand
https://www.jegs.com/i/Chevrolet-Per...29997/10002/-1
and the lt4 is
https://www.jegs.com/i/Chevrolet-Per...32702/10002/-1 14 grand
Last edited by Tom73; 12-26-2018 at 10:45 PM.
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JerriVette (12-26-2018)