Unlikely base MEC using “upgraded LT1”
#581
Instructor
Why not? They sell 800,000 trucks & 51,000 Camaro's a year, the economy of scale is there. Bad business decisions on engine development & implementation in the past? The SBC is good enough lets ride it out till we can clear the Bailout while the rest of the worlds companies who had money to spend was converting to DOHC.
They have already sunk development costs in the 4.2 BlackWing being built in Bowling Green. They would have to be crazy not to leverage that work into a 5.0 - 5.5 Corvette engine.
The engine is going into series production which will drive the unit cost down. Cadillac said:
We expect the Blackwing motor to also be used in the 2020 Cadillac Escalade as well as in the high-performance version of the Cadillac CT5, potentially called CT5-V.
They have already sunk development costs in the 4.2 BlackWing being built in Bowling Green. They would have to be crazy not to leverage that work into a 5.0 - 5.5 Corvette engine.
The engine is going into series production which will drive the unit cost down. Cadillac said:
We expect the Blackwing motor to also be used in the 2020 Cadillac Escalade as well as in the high-performance version of the Cadillac CT5, potentially called CT5-V.
Sounds like Cadillac will be utilizing this across models, which would make more sense. If the CT6 gets another US green-light in June, Reuss said in January they have "another plant" in mind, IE- BG. Last year, Cadillac CEO said the Corvette will not be getting a Blackwing, as the Corvette “wants a different kind of character.” Of course, this could be a marketing ploy, but it seemed extremely direct.
My money is on two different named motors for base vs hi-po variant. Same as C5, C6, C7 did.
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BEAR-AvHistory (02-12-2019)
#582
Not one underhood shot.
Nobody agreeing on the exhaust note of the mules.
And why wouldn't Chevy throw a blockbuster move earth shattering TTV6 with 500 500 under the hood.
Remember base needs something to build on.
Next move up bigger turbos the. V8 TT for the upper level versions.
Just have that gut feeling the base engine will be a tech marvel not an NA V8. Definitely not a pushrod.
No way.
Nobody agreeing on the exhaust note of the mules.
And why wouldn't Chevy throw a blockbuster move earth shattering TTV6 with 500 500 under the hood.
Remember base needs something to build on.
Next move up bigger turbos the. V8 TT for the upper level versions.
Just have that gut feeling the base engine will be a tech marvel not an NA V8. Definitely not a pushrod.
No way.
#583
Not while using an engine making the same power. And even if that was true 1-2mpg is minuscule considering you cut the displacement in half.
The only reason they use lower displacement engines is because of their engine displacement tax, and some countries tax power output as well. Diesel fuel is also cheaper than petrol over there making it more appealing to buy a turbo diesel car rather than a gas car.
Thats because the LT1 has enough part throttle low end torque to drive normally with a gear ratio like that where as some high strung 4 cylinders would be bogging and gasping for air. So the larger displacement gives it the advantage of being able to use a gear raito like that. Still a fair comparison if you ask me.
The European car companies have been offering small cid engines for many years since they pay for their social programs with gas tax! Yep like some advocate, let those "rich folks that buy Ferrari's pay more for our "social programs." That ~$10/gallon they pay has nothing to do with the cost of gasoline! In addition many countries charge an annual car tax based on cid (although some have switched to amount of CO2 emissions like France and Germany!)
Yep different engines are designed for different purposes as are gear ratios like the M7 C7 in my GS where 7th gear is a 0.48:1 ratio so can't just compare different cars or even the same cars with different engines.
#584
Race Director
If its a V6 GM might as well just throw in the towel now. No one wants a V6 Corvette. Current Corvette owners really don't want a V6 (why would you want a heavier/bigger/more costly TT V6 when you can have a smaller/lighter NA V8 that makes the same amount of power???), Potential Corvette buyers won't be swayed by a V6 (there is nothing appealing about it), current import owners won't change their mind (its still a "chevy"). Lose/lose situation.
Now it's just a game to see if to keep people at bay they went 488 route and used a tiny v8 or said to hell with norm and went large V6 ala ford gt.
For the base car? Under 100k I think you'll see a TT V6 or 4.0 V8 TT. But it will be under pressure. No way it won't be. This is the biggest move this company has made with this car since it's inception. Or one could argue going I6 to V8.. full circle would be a hi tech 6 cylinder.
And if anyone thinks a V6 can't sound good go listen to exotic V6s. They can. And exhaust tuning can make it sound Better than a V8 imo.
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JerryU (02-12-2019)
#585
Theres some irony there. One of the biggest complaints about the ATS-V was that it got a lame TT V6 instead of the LT1. Seriously look at any review of the car, the writer will comment that GM should have use the LT1. NO ONE complained about the Cadillac V cars using "Chevy" V8s - in fact that was one of their biggest selling points.
#586
Who told you this?
CAD drawings are showing an NA LT1 derivative
I have yet to hear one that can come close to sounding as good as a V8. Have you heard the Voodoo in the GT350? Corsa exhaust on a Corvette?
Good luck finding a V6 that can sound this good
CAD drawings are showing an NA LT1 derivative
And if anyone thinks a V6 can't sound good go listen to exotic V6s. They can. And exhaust tuning can make it sound Better than a V8 imo.
Good luck finding a V6 that can sound this good
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Shaka (02-12-2019)
#587
E-Ray, 3LZ, ZER, LIFT
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Not while using an engine making the same power. And even if that was true 1-2mpg is minuscule considering you cut the displacement in half.
My Answer: It's not IF, it happens every day with folks that have their LT1 go into V4 mode!
The only reason they use lower displacement engines is because of their engine displacement tax, ....
My Answer: Yep, will be the same here, emissions is driving engine selection not "I Must Have A Pushrod V8!" Heck I like V8's as well but I only get ~10 mpg cruising with my Street Rods 8.2 Liter BB! At WOT it goes from gas station to gas station (being tubbed the tank is small!)
My Answer: It's not IF, it happens every day with folks that have their LT1 go into V4 mode!
The only reason they use lower displacement engines is because of their engine displacement tax, ....
My Answer: Yep, will be the same here, emissions is driving engine selection not "I Must Have A Pushrod V8!" Heck I like V8's as well but I only get ~10 mpg cruising with my Street Rods 8.2 Liter BB! At WOT it goes from gas station to gas station (being tubbed the tank is small!)
The base engine will have twins on it in a hot V config.
Now it's just a game to see if to keep people at bay they went 488 route and used a tiny v8 or said to hell with norm and went large V6 ala ford gt.
For the base car? Under 100k I think you'll see a TT V6 or 4.0 V8 TT. But it will be under pressure. No way it won't be. This is the biggest move this company has made with this car since it's inception. Or one could argue going I6 to V8.. full circle would be a hi tech 6 cylinder.
And if anyone thinks a V6 can't sound good go listen to exotic V6s. They can. And exhaust tuning can make it sound Better than a V8 imo.
Now it's just a game to see if to keep people at bay they went 488 route and used a tiny v8 or said to hell with norm and went large V6 ala ford gt.
For the base car? Under 100k I think you'll see a TT V6 or 4.0 V8 TT. But it will be under pressure. No way it won't be. This is the biggest move this company has made with this car since it's inception. Or one could argue going I6 to V8.. full circle would be a hi tech 6 cylinder.
And if anyone thinks a V6 can't sound good go listen to exotic V6s. They can. And exhaust tuning can make it sound Better than a V8 imo.
But I would be happy with one similar to the Ford GT Twin Turbo, Double Overhead Cam, 647 hp V6! Be even happier if it had in addition an F1 KERS type arragement!
SIDE BAR:
Much better than a Mary Barra EV! We need to get more than ~15% of the energy in gasoline reaching the rear wheels and ~1/3 of that going into heat when braking. We can do better and recover some of that braking energy.
Having just found that an Italian sedan, the Alfa Giulia,starting at $38,000 that currently can be purchased with a 2.9 Liter V6 putting out 505 hp will be getting an F1 KERS system and combined will have 641 hp, albeit for significantly more $$'s!) Sure don't want to pull up to a stoplight with the newest, best US Technology ME Vette with a pushrod engine!
GM's done a great engineering job with the LT1/4/5 getting high hp in a usable street engine with the same basic configuration and bore spacing as I had in my 265 cid ‘56 Chevy pushrod V8- but it's time for better technology.
Last edited by JerryU; 02-12-2019 at 09:38 AM.
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BEAR-AvHistory (02-12-2019)
#588
Le Mans Master
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For what? Road racing?
The huge boost guys are rather fond of iron blocks....
#589
Drifting
Theres some irony there. One of the biggest complaints about the ATS-V was that it got a lame TT V6 instead of the LT1. Seriously look at any review of the car, the writer will comment that GM should have use the LT1. NO ONE complained about the Cadillac V cars using "Chevy" V8s - in fact that was one of their biggest selling points.
Makes me wary of the Blackwing and related V8TT designs.
#590
Drifting
If its a V6 GM might as well just throw in the towel now. No one wants a V6 Corvette. Current Corvette owners really don't want a V6 (why would you want a heavier/bigger/more costly TT V6 when you can have a smaller/lighter NA V8 that makes the same amount of power???), Potential Corvette buyers won't be swayed by a V6 (there is nothing appealing about it), current import owners won't change their mind (its still a "chevy"). Lose/lose situation.
#592
Melting Slicks
My only point is "everyone else is doing it" isn;t really a good point.
#593
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So, again I guess I'll ask: why should GM go to DOHC because everyone else is doing it, while retaining V8s in spite of most other companies giving them up in favor of FI 4s and 6s in performance applications?
My only point is "everyone else is doing it" isn't really a good point.
My only point is "everyone else is doing it" isn't really a good point.
Sadly, not everyone has good parents.
#594
Drifting
So, again I guess I'll ask: why should GM go to DOHC because everyone else is doing it, while retaining V8s in spite of most other companies giving them up in favor of FI 4s and 6s in performance applications?
My only point is "everyone else is doing it" isn;t really a good point.
My only point is "everyone else is doing it" isn;t really a good point.
#595
Im talking mostly about professional review of the car from like CarAndDriver or MotorTrend, not just what the owners are saying. They say something along the lines of "the TT V6 is alright but this should have been an LT1 or V8 derivative of it".
And I couldn't agree more. I was really excited to hear of the ATS-V coming out until I heard it wasn't a V8. They wanted to copy what the European competition was doing except they missed one the biggest things that could have had some owners swap over - the quality control. The quality isn't bad but its just not to the level of its competition, especially the interior. They should have gave it an LT1 and focused on making the interior really high quality - would have been a winner.
My Answer: Yep, will be the same here, emissions is driving engine selection not "I Must Have A Pushrod V8!"
Look at my post above with the gas mileage comparison where the Corvette gets better gas mileage than anything near its power level despite having a bigger displacement pushrod engine.
Heck I like V8's as well but I only get ~10 mpg cruising with my Street Rods 8.2 Liter BB! At WOT it goes from gas station to gas station (being tubbed the tank is small!)
That engine sound of the C8's in Europe was no LT1 and sounded fine. As you say it will be either a V8 or V6 twin turbo, my "guess," probably a Blackwing V8 since "some folks must have aV8."
Having just found that an Italian sedan, the Alfa Giulia,starting at $38,000 that currently can be purchased with a 2.9 Liter V6 putting out 505 hp will be getting an F1 KERS system and combined will have 641 hp, albeit for significantly more $$'s!) Sure don't want to pull up to a stoplight with the newest, best US Technology ME Vette with a pushrod engine!
I wouldn't be worried pulling up next to an Alfa in the new ME Covette with a pushrod engine, the more expensive (and probably slower still) Alfa will more than likely throw a check engine light and break down before it makes it off the line.
GM's done a great engineering job with the LT1/4/5 getting high hp in a usable street engine with the same basic configuration and bore spacing as I had in my 265 cid ‘56 Chevy pushrod V8- but it's time for better technology.
I think its more time for you to open your eyes and see the reality in front of you, tiny lightweight compact power:
And incase you missed my previous post:
https://www.corvetteforum.com/forums...post1598791689
All those smaller displacement DOHC V8s pictured are bigger, heavier and make less power. Why would you want that?
Last edited by JD_AMG; 02-12-2019 at 10:21 PM.
#596
Hes saying you are being a hypocrite because you say that the Corvette should go DOHC "because everyone else is doing it" but it shouldn't go to a V6, even though "everyone else is doing it".
#597
E-Ray, 3LZ, ZER, LIFT
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Notice from published info you're 32. Have lots of time to build what you want with a pushrod engine as that is the only way your going to get one very soon! I have done that over the years. Suggest you could start with a 572 cid Chevy Crate motor, streetable at 625 NA hp! :yesnod
Top Pic is the '41 I built while in High School. Had the 303 '50 Olds bored for '55 pistons to 324 cid. Not pretty but all paid for by my part time job and was very fast, my objective.
Bottom pic is what I built 19 years ago when I retired (well semi, still have an Internet business that pays for my car toys!) That 502/502 Crate motor came unassembled in boxes. $6000 at my local Chevy dealer! That is a very ridged TCI Chassis. Still taking home trophies!
Last edited by JerryU; 02-12-2019 at 11:23 PM.
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JerryU (02-12-2019)
#599
Drifting
Interesting. First I am saying Corvette should go V8T DOHC because its a proven technology. It can generate significant power, as much or more then they have now, will most likely be lighter then the LT, meeting governments ever tightness standards & still remain true to Corvettes V8 heritage since 1955 when they converted & moved up from the I6. Not just because everybody else does it. Its a what the market expects not because of what the other manufacturer is doing. I think its safe to say the Corvette market expects a V8 powered car.
I am sure he must realize that just about everyone in the StingRays base price of $56,000 & past the StingRays ZR1's $123,000 base & up are not moving to I4 DOHC & V6 DOHC engines. Most the premium & Luxury cars offer V8/V10/V12 DOHC engines for their upper product lines. StingRay is the top of Chevys product line & the top sports model of GM.
BMW has DOHC V8/V12, Audi V8/V10 DOHC. MB V8/V12 DOHC, Lexus V8 DOHC in their upper price ranges. The list can get long & boring but the trend except for the FORD GT 3.5L V6 DOHC 547HP & NSX 3.5L V6 DOHC + two electric motors 573HP are V8 DOHC or better.
At the Toyota, Honda, KIA, Acura general sub compact & compact level the I4T DOHC & the V6 DOHC are pretty standard. The lower ends of the Premium/Luxury brands also offer I4 V6 I6 DOHC engines because the cars are less expensive & the engines cheaper to make. These brands offer a full buying range of cars & develop power packs to suit their place in the market. Most top out around $50K at the lower end. Some entry luxury up to $60K.
BTW there is no movement to I4 I6 & V6 DOHC engines in many of these brands since they started at that level & moved the other way up to the V8's & higher etc.
What he maybe confusing which & why I did not understand the question is I agree in the Economy & mid level compact segment everybody is pretty much building I4 DOHC & V6 DOHC. I thought he was suggesting doing an FORD GT or NSX power package. The power is there but the V8 rumble & image is not.
Last edited by BEAR-AvHistory; 02-13-2019 at 02:12 AM.
#600
Burning Brakes
You know, the V-8 has had its run. Given where CO2 emissions need to go in the next decade, I really do think we are headed toward EV's and much smaller displacement in the near term. If that is where this is all headed, then I think the drivetrain to look at is the 2019 Mercedes CLS DOHC I-6 with a 48V Integral Starter-Generator motor tied directly to the flywheel. Regenerative braking can feed energy right into the 48V bus and be used to spin both the axles and the engine as required, with a large plug-in Li-Ion battery to buffer it all. In this setup, the IC engine only comes on when needed.
With a single DOHC head, the power to weight will be much better than any V-engine. As a result, I wonder if GM should even waste its time on a V-6 or V-8 DOHC that is not a hybrid ? It's economic life may be less tha 5-10 years.
Ultimately, as shown by the good old Miller/ Offenhauser, the optimum IC engine configuration for simplicity, emissions and power/weight is a forced induction DOHC high power I-4, like the new 2.7L Silverado engine. Increase displacement to 3.0-3.5 L and add an Integral Starter-Generator, and I'll bet you that is what we will ALL be driving in 10 years - even in a Corvette.
With a single DOHC head, the power to weight will be much better than any V-engine. As a result, I wonder if GM should even waste its time on a V-6 or V-8 DOHC that is not a hybrid ? It's economic life may be less tha 5-10 years.
Ultimately, as shown by the good old Miller/ Offenhauser, the optimum IC engine configuration for simplicity, emissions and power/weight is a forced induction DOHC high power I-4, like the new 2.7L Silverado engine. Increase displacement to 3.0-3.5 L and add an Integral Starter-Generator, and I'll bet you that is what we will ALL be driving in 10 years - even in a Corvette.
Last edited by dcbingaman; 02-13-2019 at 03:21 AM.