When you click on links to various merchants on this site and make a purchase, this can result in this site earning a commission. Affiliate programs and affiliations include, but are not limited to, the eBay Partner Network.
Hey, here's an idea. Lets look at cars I see compared all the time on here, the Mustang GT and the C7 Corvette Stingray. Mustang GT per the Ford Website achieves city 15/25 highway. The Stingray per GM website is city 16/25 highway.
Also, Mustang GT350 14/21, C7 Z06 15/22. another interesting one, Mustang GT auto 16/25, Chevy Camaro SS Auto 16/27. The Camaro SS is 1 mpg down to the mustang GT on the freeway but up a mpg in the city so Camaro SS 16/24 vs Mustang GT 15/25.
Good heavens!
Nascar races have much higher average speeds than F1, and use production-style bodies. Huge amount of aero drag.
There's also little use in Nascar for regenerative braking.
Instead, you might want to compare a single type of racing where both overhead cam and pushrod engines are used, like one of the GT classes.
Found statements like "NASCAR stocks have a much lower drag coefficient than F1." Best numbers I can find are F1 has drag coeffects of 1.3 to 1.5! Can't get 5+ "g" lateral acceleration unless you have lots of downforce. F1 cars have more than their weight, i.e. they could in theory operation the ceiling! Downforce costs drag! The C7 numbers from Tadge are interesting in that regard. Base C7 has a drag coefficient of 0.30 while the Stage 3 Aero Z06 has 0.50.
NASCAR allows a very low air dam and big splitter and limits the rear spoiler height. No doubt the drag coefficient is higher than the car as it comes from the showroom, typically with a drag coefficient of 0.35. But it's probably not much over 0.50 (no data I found.) Yep the "stock cars" have more frontal area BUT when drafting behind another car and with cars following the drag force is significantly reduced.
F1 can actually go faster that a NASCAR stocker but agree that is only on long straights. BUT the real energy required is when accelerating and a lot wasted braking. European cars in general have always used smaller cid engines to get better mpg, much better. They have been using overhead cams for over 60 years to get maximum power that requires higher rpm. The Offy engine in the US did as well from the 1930s. It dominated for many years with a NA L4 with 4 valves per cylinder and double overhead cam engine for many years.
Don't get me wrong have a lot of respect for the Chevy engineers who have gotten a lot of power/cid from the small block Chevy. From the low days of the earthly '70's when the max power was ~200 hp from a 350 cid to today with 460 hp from 376 getting even lower emission numbers. Yep it's cheaper to make but the world has changed and using independently variable intake and exhaust timing to optimize mpg at low rpm and max power at high is not going to happen with a pushrod engine. Two valves/cylinder can't compete with 4 to get max power/cid. Lower friction smaller cid engines have a significant edge in getting both ends.
F1 went to 1.6 Liters to press the limts. They are going so fast now for many of the tracks they will no doubt do somethong to slow them further! Hope it is something smarter than "restrictor plates!"
Hey, here's an idea. Lets look at cars I see compared all the time on here, the Mustang GT and the C7 Corvette Stingray. Mustang GT per the Ford Website achieves city 15/25 highway. The Stingray per GM website is city 16/25 highway.
Also, Mustang GT350 14/21, C7 Z06 15/22. another interesting one, Mustang GT auto 16/25, Chevy Camaro SS Auto 16/27. The Camaro SS is 1 mpg down to the mustang GT on the freeway but up a mpg in the city so Camaro SS 16/24 vs Mustang GT 15/25.
PC
How about comparing the 2019 Alfa Giulia with it's 2.9 Liter, V6, 4 valves/cylinder, double overhead cam twin turbo that will soon have 645 hp with the announced added 141 hp from KERS and a Z06 with similar power..
The standard shift Z06 gets an EPA average of 18 mpg, no doubt operating skipping 2nd and 3rd and operating as much as possible in 7th. Surly no fun. The Z06 automatic EPA average number is 16 mpg.
The 3800 lb Giulia 4 door sports sedan without the advantage of the extra mpg from KERS (as that data in not available) gets 20.2 mpg average.
BTW, the lower 280 hp, 2 Liter Giulia with double overhead cams, 4 vales/cylinder, turbo gets: 34 mpg highway, 23 City and 27 combined! Oh, you can buy one for ~$39,000.
Yep the V6 is built in the Ferrari factory! The C8 Blackwing is already being built in Bowling Green! Probably why the BG plant was expanded so they could build the engine, as Ferrari does, in the assembly plant!
How about comparing the 2019 Alfa Giulia with it's 2.9 Liter, V6, 4 valves/cylinder, double overhead cam twin turbo that will soon have 645 hp with the announced added 141 hp from KERS and a Z06 with similar power..
The standard shift Z06 gets an EPA average of 18 mpg, no doubt operating skipping 2nd and 3rd and operating as much as possible in 7th. Surly no fun. The Z06 automatic EPA average number is 16 mpg.
The 3800 lb Giulia 4 door sports sedan without the advantage of the extra mpg from KERS (as that data in not available) gets 20.2 mpg average.
BTW, the lower 280 hp, 2 Liter Giulia with double overhead cams, 4 vales/cylinder, turbo gets: 34 mpg highway, 23 City and 27 combined! Oh, you can buy one for ~$39,000.
Yep the V6 is built in the Ferrari factory! The C8 Blackwing is already being built in Bowling Green! Probably why the BG plant was expanded so they could build the engine, as Ferrari does, in the assembly plant!
That is an impressive car to be sure and does make fine mpg for the lvl of performance. That being said, No need to use the Z06 for that comparison, just use the Camaro SS auto, add 1LE for additional sporting lvl if ya like, at least its based on a sedan platform with a back seat. It gets 20 mpg average also btw.
See, I get the feeling that anybody that takes up for the basic cam in block platform you see as hating on ohc. In my case thats not true, I believe both have value, not just one.
How about comparing the 2019 Alfa Giulia with it's 2.9 Liter, V6, 4 valves/cylinder, double overhead cam twin turbo that will soon have 645 hp with the announced added 141 hp from KERS and a Z06 with similar power..
The standard shift Z06 gets an EPA average of 18 mpg, no doubt operating skipping 2nd and 3rd and operating as much as possible in 7th. Surly no fun. The Z06 automatic EPA average number is 16 mpg.
The 3800 lb Giulia 4 door sports sedan without the advantage of the extra mpg from KERS (as that data in not available) gets 20.2 mpg average.
BTW, the lower 280 hp, 2 Liter Giulia with double overhead cams, 4 vales/cylinder, turbo gets: 34 mpg highway, 23 City and 27 combined! Oh, you can buy one for ~$39,000.
Yep the V6 is built in the Ferrari factory! The C8 Blackwing is already being built in Bowling Green! Probably why the BG plant was expanded so they could build the engine, as Ferrari does, in the assembly plant!
The one you refer to above is very much a base model.
My wife fell in love with the Guilia, and we drove the big dog, but she fell in love with the model one step down, which is more of a GS equivalent in the Guilia family, the TI Sport Q4 (AWD). With all the high tech collision aids, adaptive cruise control, including emergency stop, etc., actual real Italian leather, dash, steering wheel and all, it stickered at $55K, but we did much better than that. It is an unbelievably great handling car, with outstanding build quality, and the engine is very much Italian with a characteristic Ferrari growl. It also has the excellent ZF8 trans, same as in some Audis, BMWs, and Jaguar. The suspension is pure magic, with tour and sporty settings.
Alfa has really aggressively low pricing on this car to try to break into the BMW, MB, Audi battle. One of those equipped like this one and with very luxurious interior would come with an $80K+ MSRP, and it performs better than many in its class. Being Italian, it's a bit of a roll of the dice on reliability, but 2019 is MY 3 for the Guilia, and they've done many upgrades since 17 intro.
She took delivery about a week ago, and can't stop finding excuses to go somewhere. She's already put almost 1K miles on it, but she has a long commute.
What is all of this about F1, that is not racing. They get out there and qualify, then on race day they play follow the leader around the track. And they have so much electronics on them that the driver is not much more than a passenger. Very soon, and with better GPS, the car will just drive itself around the track.
To me, efficiency in a sports car is power to weight, 0-60, top speed, g’s, slalom speeds, and not gas mileage. A sports car is a toy to be played with. If I wanted fuel efficiency then I would buy a Chevy Spark or Bolt.
That is an impressive car to be sure and does make fine mpg for the lvl of performance. That being said, No need to use the Z06 for that comparison, just use the Camaro SS auto, add 1LE for additional sporting kvl if ya like, at least is based on a sedan platform with a back seat. It gets 20 mpg average also btw.
See, I get the feeling that anybody that takes up for the basic cam in block platform you see as hating on ohc. In my case thats not true, I believe both have value, not just one.
PC
I don't dislike the small block Chevy with it's single cam pushrod engine at all. Recall my friends '57 fuelie, we would change pushrods all the time as bending them was our rev limiter "in the day!" Loved the small block in my '56 and the ones in my 5 Vettes.
When I built my street rod 19 years ago put in a 502 cid engine! Still have it and it's still bringing home trophies.
But the World is changing and so must the engine in my DD!
What is all of this about F1, that is not racing. They get out there and qualify, then on race day they play follow the leader around the track. And they have so much electronics on them that the driver is not much more than a passenger. Very soon, and with better GPS, the car will just drive itself around the track.
To me, efficiency in a sports car is power to weight, 0-60, top speed, g’s, slalom speeds, and not gas mileage. A sports car is a toy to be played with. If I wanted fuel efficiency then I would buy a Chevy Spark or Bolt.
Actually most all drivers aids have been banned from F1 for some years now, no ABS, Traction Control, Launch Control, Active Suspension. The adjustments that can be made for Brake Bias and Ediff are made by the driver through the course of the race, no automated. It is true that the computer systems are designed to be setup for each track to optimize performance but not actively during the race.
To the greater point, there is no comparison between F1 and Nascar. Thats like comparing Flat track to Moto GP, they both have two wheels and handlebars so its all the same! Lol
MPG isn't on the top of my list for a weekend toy either. HP, TQ, reliability, simplicity, ease of modification, that's what speaks to me.
The one you refer to above is very much a base model.
My wife fell in love with the Guilia, and we drove the big dog, but she fell in love with the model one step down, which is more of a GS equivalent in the Guilia family, the TI Sport Q4 (AWD). With all the high tech collision aids, adaptive cruise control, including emergency stop, etc., actual real Italian leather, dash, steering wheel and all, it stickered at $55K, but we did much better than that. It is an unbelievably great handling car, with outstanding build quality, and the engine is very much Italian with a characteristic Ferrari growl. It also has the excellent ZF8 trans, same as in some Audis, BMWs, and Jaguar. The suspension is pure magic, with tour and sporty settings.
Alfa has really aggressively low pricing on this car to try to break into the BMW, MB, Audi battle. One of those equipped like this one would come with an $80K+ MSRP, and it performs better than many its class. Obviously, it's a bit of a roll of the dice on reliability, but 2019 is MY 3 for the Guilia, and they've done many upgrades since 17 intro.
She took delivery about a week ago, and can't stop finding excuses to go somewhere. She's already put almost 1K miles on it, but she has a long commute.
I don't dislike the small block Chevy with it's single cam pushrod engine at all. Recall my friends '57 fuelie, we would change pushrods all the time as bending them was our rev limiter "in the day!" Loved the small block in my '56 and the ones in my 5 Vettes.
When I built my street rod 19 years ago put in a 502 cid engine! Still have it and it's still bringing home trophies.
But the World is changing and so must the engine in my DD!
Good looking car! So the good news is there's a really good chance we will both get what we like.
What is all of this about F1, that is not racing. They get out there and qualify, then on race day they play follow the leader around the track. And they have so much electronics on them that the driver is not much more than a passenger. Very soon, and with better GPS, the car will just drive itself around the track.
To me, efficiency in a sports car is power to weight, 0-60, top speed, g’s, slalom speeds, and not gas mileage. A sports car is a toy to be played with. If I wanted fuel efficiency then I would buy a Chevy Spark or Bolt.
BTW 0 to 60 in a F1 car is 1.6 seconds and without AA Fuel slicks ( AA/Fuel Dragsters go 0 to 100 mph in ~0.8 seconds!)
TOM it's not you wanting better gas mileage! Have you not followed AOC's ideas,now endorsed by >100 DEMS including those running for 2020 President? They want NO fossil fuels by 2030, no airplanes (use electric trains) and stop raising cows as their farts produce a lot of methane a more harmful climate warming gas than CO2!
Mary Barra has not directed all engineering to produce EVs and hybrid vehicles because she loves EVs or because YOU want better gas mileage but even China is pushing their technology in that direction. Probably a smart move or you'll be buying your electric car from Harbor Freight or directly from Alibaba!
Yep I never put my Grand Sport in ECO Mode and my street rod with it's 502 cid BB gets ~10 mpg- I don't care about mpg either BUT we must have more efficient ICE or we won't have any and you won't have an option! Best stay current or you'll be looking around in 2021 and saying, "What Happened!"
Hey, here's an idea. Lets look at cars I see compared all the time on here, the Mustang GT and the C7 Corvette Stingray. Mustang GT per the Ford Website achieves city 15/25 highway. The Stingray per GM website is city 16/25 highway.
Also, Mustang GT350 14/21, C7 Z06 15/22. another interesting one, Mustang GT auto 16/25, Chevy Camaro SS Auto 16/27. The Camaro SS is 1 mpg down to the mustang GT on the freeway but up a mpg in the city so Camaro SS 16/24 vs Mustang GT 15/25.
PC
Yup. Much more valid comparisons than Nascar versus F1.
Originally Posted by Darion
That is an impressive car to be sure and does make fine mpg for the lvl of performance. That being said, No need to use the Z06 for that comparison, just use the Camaro SS auto, add 1LE for additional sporting kvl if ya like, at least is based on a sedan platform with a back seat. It gets 20 mpg average also btw.
See, I get the feeling that anybody that takes up for the basic cam in block platform you see as hating on ohc. In my case thats not true, I believe both have value, not just one.
PC
I don't dislike OHC either, as long as there's a good reason for it other than blind dogma. It's a great setup for engines which need to rev to 8000 rpm or more to make their power. Most production automotive engines don't rev anywhere near that level.
Originally Posted by JerryU
I don't dislike the small block Chevy with it's single cam pushrod engine at all. Recall my friends '57 fuelie, we would change pushrods all the time as bending them was our rev limiter "in the day!" Loved the small block in my '56 and the ones in my 5 Vettes.
Yes, there were problems with over-revving both pushrod and overhead cam engines, before rev limiters became common. If I didn't surgically execute a power-shift on my dual overhead cam Z-1 motorcycle, there was a good chance that the valve bucket shims would be spit out, leading to carnage much more serious than bent pushrods.
Originally Posted by JerryU
When I built my street rod 19 years ago put in a 502 cid engine! Still have it and it's still bringing home trophies. But the World is changing and so must the engine in my DD!
Your Big Block Chevy is a 53-year-old design. I wouldn't consider it at all representative of what pushrod engines today can do, any more than I'd consider the C4 ZR1 representative of what overhead cam engines today can do.
Nice street rod though, and I appreciate your dedication and passion.
Last edited by Warp Factor; 03-08-2019 at 01:16 PM.
The one you refer to above is very much a base model.
My wife fell in love with the Guilia, and we drove the big dog, but she fell in love with the model one step down, which is more of a GS equivalent in the Guilia family, the TI Sport Q4 (AWD).
She took delivery about a week ago, and can't stop finding excuses to go somewhere. She's already put almost 1K miles on it, but she has a long commute.
Glad you and your wife made a decision you are both happy with. To me, the car looks so much like so many other cars on the road (the C7Z does not), that it wouldn't cut it for me, unless it had vastly superior performance.
Looks aren't everything to me, but in an era when one can purchase cars off the showroom floor which are so powerful, that one will seldom have a chance to use all the power for more than 3 seconds on the street, appearance comes into play. The ultimate performance potential of a vehicle can rarely be realized on the street, but the looks are always there.
It didn't replace the C7, it replaced my wife's 2017 Infiniti Q60 Red Sport, which was not a precision handling car like the Alfa is. It also had no "soul," but the Alfa speaks and acts like a Ferrari sibling.
How about comparing the 2019 Alfa Giulia with it's 2.9 Liter, V6, 4 valves/cylinder, double overhead cam twin turbo that will soon have 645 hp with the announced added 141 hp from KERS and a Z06 with similar power..
The standard shift Z06 gets an EPA average of 18 mpg, no doubt operating skipping 2nd and 3rd and operating as much as possible in 7th. Surly no fun. The Z06 automatic EPA average number is 16 mpg.
The 3800 lb Giulia 4 door sports sedan without the advantage of the extra mpg from KERS (as that data in not available) gets 20.2 mpg average.
BTW, the lower 280 hp, 2 Liter Giulia with double overhead cams, 4 vales/cylinder, turbo gets: 34 mpg highway, 23 City and 27 combined! Oh, you can buy one for ~$39,000.
Yep the V6 is built in the Ferrari factory! The C8 Blackwing is already being built in Bowling Green! Probably why the BG plant was expanded so they could build the engine, as Ferrari does, in the assembly plant!
You're like a broken record of stereotypical bench racing arguments that don't play out in the real world.
Hmm, my benches have real oil and grease on them! Probably have modified more cars/engines than most! I'm on my 5th Vette and have a 502 cid BB in the ProStreet Rod I built when I semi retired 19 years ago! Assembled that engine in the garage from some 35 boxes! It still brings home trophies- have over 50!
Started in High School when I had a '51 Olds Engine bought all in parts and assembled without a manual. Had it bored 1/8 inches for '55 pistons! Hot Rod Mag said it could be bored without getting into the water jacket and the machine shop said there could be a core shift so pay up-front! Been working part time since 15 and it was my money so took the risk, although Pop thought I was crazy! Stuffed it in my '41 Ford Coupe. Heck, now I open the 4 volume Service Manual I bought for the C7 to change a battery! Many car and engine mods in between. I own my Grand Sport because when I get in and drive I'm still 19! (Been exercising 7 days/week in my own gym for 35 years and do 3 sets of 10 pull-ups on "back day!") Often hit redline in 3rd on the 3/4 mile long, little used road between two farm field near my home! No homes or cars and the corn and cotton don't care how fast I go!
Yep in addition to working on my friends '57 fuelie, the small block Chevy in my '56 and those in my 5 Vettes I have a Chevy BB in my street rod. In addition to hands on car/engine experience from when I was ~13 I also have 3 engineering degrees so understand and appreciate advanced technology. F1 is ahead of most all other racing series and classes. Next, IMO, is NHRA ProStock. They get ~1500 hp from a NA 500 cid engine on racing gas that they were spinning at +12,000 rpm until a 10,500 rpm limit was put on to cut costs. Yep I like watching four AA/Fuel Dragsters with10,000 hp each going down Burton Smiths track in Charlotte. been to Lagena Seca many times as well as other drag strips, road race tracks and NASCAR events (had 30 seats at our local Darlington Track for many years where I entertained customers.) Sponsored Richard Petty for many years while working in my former life! Still remember going ~160 mph into turn 3 at the Charlotte Motor Speedway at one of the early Richard Petty's Driving Experiences he held for sponsors. Gave several hundred Rookie Experiences away to distributors who achieved sales growth goals!
In 60 years of driving have only had standard shifts. The C8 will be my first DD without a 3rd pedal! But I embrace technology and at least it's not an inefficient A8 or A10 shush box! Was worried GM would built the A10 into it's transaxle, that would have me switching brands!
03-08-2019, 08:41 AM
Many car and engine mods in between. I own my Grand Sport because when I get in and drive I'm still 19! (Been exercising 7 days/week in my own gym for 35 years and do 3 sets of 10 pull-ups on "back day!") 
