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C8 will be AWD

Old 12-24-2018, 10:47 AM
  #21  
harry2
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In the past, I have always purchased the 3LT versions [and one C6 GS 4LT], I will NOT spend $90K for a base C8!
If GM believes that their Corvette customer base will spend that amount of money for a "base" C8, they are mistaken!
My limit is about $85K for a loaded Corvette, beyond that, I will look for an alternative.
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Old 12-24-2018, 11:30 AM
  #22  
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Originally Posted by JoesC5 View Post
I would like to be the fly on the wall at Acura when their suits are discussing why the NSX's sales are averaging 14 a month when they thought they would be selling ~2,000 annually. I bet they now wish they had left out the fancy electric motors and battery and built a ICE car that could be sold for $100,000 instead of $159,000.
No one that is looking for a sports car is impressed with the NSX's "high tech" drivetrain to spend upwards of $160,000 for one.
The prior generation NSX's sold well because they had Viper levels of performance (which was always higher than a Corvette - sorry guys but the truth hurts), a more comfortable cabin and ride for about a Viper price tag. The new version is high tech, but gives up far too much performance for the price. It just can't be priced like a Mclaren and not perform as well and expect to sell.
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Old 12-24-2018, 02:24 PM
  #23  
Bill Dearborn
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Originally Posted by Red67John View Post
AWD would be awesome. I have driven the 911 4S and it handles great. And, it still takes skill to drive aWD to maximum performance.

I would like to see how a hybrid AWD Corvette would perform. It appears Poreche is preparing their 2020 911 for electric motors to be added down the road.
AWD has the nasty habits of both front and rear wheel drive. Every HPDE student has sat through at least one classroom presentation on the friction circle and the grip limitations of tires. A tire has only so much grip. That grip can be used for cornering, braking or acceleration. If you combine cornering and braking the grip has to be shared between the two, if you combine cornering and acceleration that grip has to be shared between the two. Power out of a corner with AWD and the front end will understeer similar to what a FWD car does because you are sharing cornering with acceleration. If you aren't driving at the limit of the front tires grip level you may not notice the understeer but once you get on that limit you will find AWD may limit the amount of power that can be applied when powering off the apex of a corner.

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Old 12-24-2018, 02:34 PM
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Originally Posted by Hammerhead69 View Post

Does it make financial sense to make the “top of the line” model with one drive train & lower models with another type of drive train?
It obviously makes a lot of sense. Virtually every single manufacturer offers at least one model of car/SAV/CUV in either 2 or optional AWD drive configurations.
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Old 12-24-2018, 03:58 PM
  #25  
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ZL1 Camaros are 70k plus. Just an fyi.
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Old 12-24-2018, 05:30 PM
  #26  
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And a quick search on the internet shows ZL1s readily available for about $60K, some less.
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Old 12-24-2018, 10:15 PM
  #27  
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Originally Posted by Bill Dearborn View Post
AWD has the nasty habits of both front and rear wheel drive. Every HPDE student has sat through at least one classroom presentation on the friction circle and the grip limitations of tires. A tire has only so much grip. That grip can be used for cornering, braking or acceleration. If you combine cornering and braking the grip has to be shared between the two, if you combine cornering and acceleration that grip has to be shared between the two. Power out of a corner with AWD and the front end will understeer similar to what a FWD car does because you are sharing cornering with acceleration. If you aren't driving at the limit of the front tires grip level you may not notice the understeer but once you get on that limit you will find AWD may limit the amount of power that can be applied when powering off the apex of a corner.

Bill
Modern AWD systems can be set up to pretty much eliminate understeer caused by the older AWD systems. Systems like in the Focus RS use torque vectoring on the rear axle to do it quite effectively. Something like the theoretical C8 AWD that just uses electric motors up from can easily be programmed to reduce the amount of torque going to those wheels at certain steering angles, then go back to full AWD mode when the car is going straighter and the driver is looking for full power.
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Old 12-25-2018, 12:41 AM
  #28  
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Originally Posted by Hammerhead69 View Post

Does it make financial sense to make the “top of the line” model with one drive train & lower models with another type of drive train?

yes.
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Old 12-25-2018, 12:56 AM
  #29  
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IF the intent of the top of the line C8 is to venture into Hypercar territory, then I totally agree, it will have AWD, and the front wheels will be electrically powered.

If, however, it is more in-line with the C7 ZR1 (mostly a factory hot-rod version of a lower model, e.g. no new tech), then it will probably end up rear wheel drive only.

Let us not forget about the weight penalty - the C7 chassis and drive train is already bloated, front wheel drive would add at least another 100 lbs.

Folks assuming the C8 will somehow magically shed hundreds of pounds over the C7 platform are forgetting just how much weight-reducing materials cost, and that GM knows it can't build and sell a $200k sports car in any significant quantity, regardless of the performance specs.

Last edited by Dan_the_C5_Man; 12-25-2018 at 01:05 AM.
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Old 12-25-2018, 01:10 AM
  #30  
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Originally Posted by Dan_the_C5_Man View Post
IF the intent of the top of the line C8 is to venture into Hypercar territory, then I totally agree, it will have AWD, and the front wheels will be electrically powered.

If, however, it is more in-line with the C7 ZR1 (mostly a factory hot-rod version of a lower model, e.g. no new tech), then it will probably end up rear wheel drive only.

Let us not forget about the weight penalty - the C7 chassis and drive train is already bloated, front wheel drive would add at least another 100 lbs.

Folks assuming the C8 will somehow magically shed hundreds of pounds over the C7 platform are forgetting just how much weight-reducing materials cost, and that GM knows it can't build and sell a $200k sports car in any significant quantity, regardless of the performance specs.

for an initial model agree with much of what you say... but if they can build a me car that specs like a 720s... for 200k usd.. they will sell out every year...sign me up
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Old 12-25-2018, 01:38 AM
  #31  
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Well they stole the side scoops from the new NSX so why not this too?
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Old 12-25-2018, 10:29 AM
  #32  
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Originally Posted by Dan_the_C5_Man View Post
IF the intent of the top of the line C8 is to venture into Hypercar territory, then I totally agree, it will have AWD, and the front wheels will be electrically powered.

If, however, it is more in-line with the C7 ZR1 (mostly a factory hot-rod version of a lower model, e.g. no new tech), then it will probably end up rear wheel drive only.

Let us not forget about the weight penalty - the C7 chassis and drive train is already bloated, front wheel drive would add at least another 100 lbs.

Folks assuming the C8 will somehow magically shed hundreds of pounds over the C7 platform are forgetting just how much weight-reducing materials cost, and that GM knows it can't build and sell a $200k sports car in any significant quantity, regardless of the performance specs.
Battery and front wheel drive would probably add another 300 pounds to the weight of the C7(and a mid engine Corvette). Curb weight of the bloated C7 Z06 is 3524 pounds, compared to the NSX's weight of 3803 pounds with it's battery and front wheel drive.
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Old 12-25-2018, 02:32 PM
  #33  
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Originally Posted by JoesC5 View Post
Battery and front wheel drive would probably add another 300 pounds to the weight of the C7(and a mid engine Corvette). Curb weight of the bloated C7 Z06 is 3524 pounds, compared to the NSX's weight of 3803 pounds with it's battery and front wheel drive.
Problem with the Acura is they did not add enough horsepower to justify the added weight.


The bloated C7 Z06 = Approximately 5.4 Lb per HP

The C6 Z06 = Approximately 6.1 Lb per HP

C7 clearly has more HP per LB than the C6 to make up for the added weight that comes with all the new mandated safety regulation and the substantially upgraded interior which most Corvette enthusiasts demanded from the rental car quality of the C6 seats and interior and electronic / Navy / Entertainment systems.


While most of us would like to see the C8 weight go significantly down that will not happen in either the 2wd format or 4wd format. Simple because the Corvette buyer is more concerned about a lower entry cost than they are about the cure wieght.

The Maclaren and Ferrari of the world safe weight through expensive high tech materials in building their cars. Those same customers are willing to pay for that technology that allows for great weight savings.

Few on the CF forum are willing to see a C8 with a 100k base price that GM would need to be at to utilize materials that allowed for it to meet all the safety standards of a 2020 production car and the demand for higher quality and added features that we as Corvette enthusiasts now expect in our sports cars.

My 458 weighs in at about 3400 lb but feels much much much lighter that my old C6 Z06 or my Callaway SC 757.

While many would like to see a 4wd C8 I personally think that as a drivers car the all wheel drive system takes away from the driving experience.

Prior to the 458 I had a Gallardo and the car all way felt heavier and experienced understeer due to the all well drive system.


So while the C8 will most likely weigh in well over 3500 pound in 2wd configuration I believe the rear mid engine platform will make the car driving experience feel like a much lighter car.




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Old 12-25-2018, 10:55 PM
  #34  
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Originally Posted by JoesC5 View Post
Battery and front wheel drive would probably add another 300 pounds to the weight of the C7(and a mid engine Corvette). Curb weight of the bloated C7 Z06 is 3524 pounds, compared to the NSX's weight of 3803 pounds with it's battery and front wheel drive.
Agreed, I was only speaking to the motor assemblies in the hub, but sure, batteries and other supporting components will certainly add more weight.

I just don't appreciate the general direction, e.g. "let's just keep piling on the weight, "fix it" by adding more HP.." (just as the post above proved with the HP per lbs between generations comment). There is more to superior vehicle dynamics than power to weight ratios.

Last edited by Dan_the_C5_Man; 12-25-2018 at 10:56 PM.
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Old 12-25-2018, 11:39 PM
  #35  
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Originally Posted by harry2 View Post
In the past, I have always purchased the 3LT versions [and one C6 GS 4LT], I will NOT spend $90K for a base C8!
If GM believes that their Corvette customer base will spend that amount of money for a "base" C8, they are mistaken!
My limit is about $85K for a loaded Corvette, beyond that, I will look for an alternative.
Stress not; you will be just fine driving your C8. However, not so if you are planning on also selecting “build your own motor” and also “custom VIN.” So if you are reasonable, your budget even for your 3LT and some other options, you will be just fine.





Last edited by elegant; 12-25-2018 at 11:47 PM.
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Old 12-26-2018, 04:27 PM
  #36  
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Originally Posted by Hammerhead69 View Post
ut 2 levels of the C8 with a starting msrp of around $90k -$100k. The ZL1 Camaro will fill the $50k -$60k perforce car niche.
Not. A. Chance. Base car will open no higher than $60-$65K, most cars will have MSRPs between $70K-$85K. Unless GM wants to sell 10-20K C8s the first model year, not 30K+, and I'm sure that higher target is the goal considering the long history of how GM has marketed the Corvette. They will NOT price the base car above the Cayman and up in 911 territory, no way.
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Old 12-26-2018, 04:52 PM
  #37  
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If there is a C8 vert it better be less than $80k or I'll be buying a Booster S.
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Old 12-26-2018, 05:02 PM
  #38  
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Originally Posted by patentcad View Post
Not. A. Chance. Base car will open no higher than $60-$65K, most cars will have MSRPs between $70K-$85K. Unless GM wants to sell 10-20K C8s the first model year, not 30K+, and I'm sure that higher target is the goal considering the long history of how GM has marketed the Corvette. They will NOT price the base car above the Cayman and up in 911 territory, no way.
That pricing strategy makes no sense to me. If I were GM, that price strategy would put the C8 competing directly against the camaro. Why would I want to compete against myself?


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Old 12-26-2018, 05:08 PM
  #39  
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What makes no sense? It's exactly what's happening w/ the C7 and Camaro today and makes perfect sense. Base Camaros start at $26K and go to $70K. Base C7s start at $56K, and go to $130K+.

Moreover, 4-seaters have a much broader appeal such as to young families with young kids who want something "sporty."

Last edited by Foosh; 12-26-2018 at 05:17 PM.
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Old 12-26-2018, 05:25 PM
  #40  
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I want to believe
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