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Bob Lutz via Car Buzz reports C8 to cost not much more than C7

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Bob Lutz via Car Buzz reports C8 to cost not much more than C7

Old 12-31-2018, 01:07 AM
  #21  
Hammerhead69
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No way. With a clean sheet, mid engine design GM is taking this car in a new direction including making it more upscale. The “ base” model will start at a minimum of $90k.
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Old 12-31-2018, 01:39 AM
  #22  
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There will be an upscale version later but not initially! Think about the current C7 and the order that they introduced leading up to the high-end ZR1. The Stingray and Grand Sport represent 60% of all corvette sales. The ZR1 is a niche car and not for most people. They need volume sales to justify the investment to their shareholders. GM is a publicly traded company and profits will come with the volume car.

C7 Release History:
  • 1st - Stingray / Z51 / 460HP / 55k-75k
  • 2nd - Z06 / 650HP / 95k-115k
  • 3rd - Grand Sport 460HP / 60k-75k
  • 4th - ZR1 / 755HP / 125k-135k
The C8 will follow the same sequence as they will first tease with the C8 entry level 550HP model that they will expect to drive the larger volume to pay for the investment cost of the C8. They will then follow up with the more powerful performance version with slight change of the looks and about 675HP, Then they will release a 775HP version followed by the Zora version which will the statement car of 850HP and the C8 I suspect will be lighter as well and thus faster. I suggest it will be something like below:

C8 Release Schedule GUESS:
  • 1st - C8 - 550HP (Entry Level) (IE: Stingray/Grand Sport) / 65-80k
  • 2nd - C8 - 675HP (Performance) (IE: Z06) / 95-115k
  • 3rd - C8 - 775HP (IE: ZR1) /125k-145k
  • 4th - C8 Zora - 850HP (IE: C8-R) / 160k-190k
Originally Posted by Hammerhead69 View Post

No way. With a clean sheet, mid engine design GM is taking this car in a new direction including making it more upscale. The “ base” model will start at a minimum of $90k.









Last edited by KGrant; 12-31-2018 at 08:24 AM.
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Old 12-31-2018, 01:51 AM
  #23  
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Originally Posted by KGrant View Post
There will be an upscale version later but not initially! Think about the current C7 and the order that they introduced leading up to the high-end ZR1. The Stingray and Grand Sport represent 60% of all corvette sales. The ZR1 is a niche car and not for most people. They need volume sales to justify the investment to their shareholders. GM is a publicly traded company and profits will come with the volume car.

C7 Release History:
  • 1st - Stingray / Z51 / 460HP
  • 2nd - Z06 / 650HP
  • 3rd - Grand Sport 460HP
  • 4th - ZR1 / 755HP
The C8 will follow the same sequence as they will first tease with the C8 entry level 550HP model that they will expect to drive the larger volume to pay for the investment cost of the C8. They will then follow up with the more powerful performance version with slight change of the looks and about 675HP, Then they will release a 775HP version followed by the Zora version which will the statement car of 850. I suggest it will be something like below:

C8 Release Schedule:
  • 1st - C8 - 550HP (IE: Stingray/Grand Sport)
  • 2nd - C8 - 675HP (IE: Z06)
  • 3rd - C8 - 775HP (IE: ZR1)
  • 4th - C8 Zora - 850HP (IE: C8-R)
I don’t doubt the incremental models you’re mentioning. I’m just predicting that even the C8 “Stingray” will be marketed as an upscale improvement over the C7 Stingray & prices will start @ $90k minimum with the Zora @ $170k minimum. Ferrari is going to be mentioned a lot in the marketing of this thing & even at $100 to $120k it can still be referred to as an affordable alternative to Ferrari. That’s how they’ll try to justify a much higher base price than any Corvette before it.

Last edited by Hammerhead69; 12-31-2018 at 01:56 AM.
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Old 12-31-2018, 02:56 AM
  #24  
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GM will NEVER sell 33000 cars a year at a starting price of $90K. Further, if they DON'T sell at least 25,000 cars a year, the business case does not close and the Corvette program will be terminated. You can take it to the bank, dude.

Note: Ferrari has NEVER sold more than 3000 ME 488's or more than 3000 FE Portofino's in one year. That is why they list for nearly $300k each. GM will never sell such a car - it does not make sense for them, because it is not very profitable. Ferrari only survives by getting handouts from Fiat on a regular basis.

As to an "affordable" ME between Ferrari and Corvette - there is no such thing. Just ask Acura about their NSX or Audi about their R8. Great cars but they lose money on every one. Even the ZR1 at $125-140K will only sell about 2000 cars TOTAL.
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Old 12-31-2018, 03:23 AM
  #25  
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Originally Posted by dcbingaman View Post
GM will NEVER sell 33000 cars a year at a starting price of $90K. Further, if they DON'T sell at least 25,000 cars a year, the business case does not close and the Corvette program will be terminated. You can take it to the bank, dude.

Note: Ferrari has NEVER sold more than 3000 ME 488's or more than 3000 FE Portofino's in one year. That is why they list for nearly $300k each. GM will never sell such a car - it does not make sense for them, because it is not very profitable. Ferrari only survives by getting handouts from Fiat on a regular basis.

As to an "affordable" ME between Ferrari and Corvette - there is no such thing. Just ask Acura about their NSX or Audi about their R8. Great cars but they lose money on every one. Even the ZR1 at $125-140K will only sell about 2000 cars TOTAL.
I believe GM is trying to change the image of the Corvette to appeal to the more “sophisticated” buyer & I find it hard to believe this car won’t be compared to the Italian exotics since Chevy is basically mimicking them. Either way, hopefully we’ll find out within a few months.
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Old 12-31-2018, 03:55 AM
  #26  
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Originally Posted by Shaka View Post
Come on Skank, my research and my experience designing and building chassis permits me to comment on the design and the materials used on the C8 chassis. I have described the chassis elsewhere in these pages and I can assure you that there are more than 3 major structural components to that structure. Check out those ZERV leaked CAD files again.
I sent you a questionnaire in order for you to name the components, the materials they are made from and how the chassis is manufactured using little arrows. You never responded. Why? I have since published the correct answers. It is all documented by research activities of GM engineers and trends in the auto and aircraft industry.
I suggested that Corvette will set the standard for chassis design in cost, weight and strength properties. It will be an industry first.
Some members have suggested with reasonable conjecture why the pricing of the C8 will be the usual increase over previous models.
The power doors patent doesn't mention swan type action. They will open as per usual. See pictures.
Absolutely no structural body components. Where on earth did you get that information? You not making things up again, are you?
Electronically actuated manual transmission? You mean like pre DCT Ferrari's paddle shift system? Absurd.
What about GM's relationship with Siemans NX system and its participation in two tier voltage systems? Nearly All of GMs research is public.
You will have to refresh my memory when and where you sent me this questionaire that you speak of. I don't remember you sending me anything in your PM's. And if you read your own response on my list thread you will see that I gave you credit for the chassis commentary that you wrote about. I even asked you to reduce your comment into a more succinct explanation and not so long winded. Go back and reread your post #2 of the list thread and then read my response back to you below.

Quote:
Originally Posted by skank
Yes Shaka. You remember on Post 564 of the Code Name Zerv thread you requested that I start the list. Your very words were "yoo start". I did and I read the entire Code Name Zerv for the second time and extracted any plausible info out of it that made sense by all that posted any logical comments. Most(not all) of the comments on the above list were in the Code Name Zerv thread. I wish your new comment on the chassis configuration had been posted on the earlier thread as your observation of it makes sense. I would have certainly gleaned much of it and added it to this main list. Like I prefaced in first paragraph, if there are any adjustments, deletions, or new revelations on what we perceive this new mid engined C8 to be, lets adjust it and add any further info down line. I've already added Elegant's rear view streaming camera observation yesterday. I will continue to monitor the entire C8 section of any new observations to add to this list. If you could condense your thoughts on the chassis configuration and minimize it to a shorter description I will certainly add it to this list. Thanks


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Old 12-31-2018, 08:19 AM
  #27  
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It looked like you responded before I added the prices I predict as the entry level will be around as Lutz suggest and I say it will start at 65k but once you add a few options you the average transaction might be 75-80k. The 90k will be the close to the start point for the next or second entry ala Z06. So we'll see what happens!

C7 Release History:
  • 1st - Stingray / Z51 / 460HP / 55k-75k
  • 2nd - Z06 / 650HP / 85k-115k
  • 3rd - Grand Sport 460HP / 60k-75k
  • 4th - ZR1 / 755HP / 125k-135k
C8 Release Schedule GUESS:
  • 1st - C8 - 550HP (Entry Level) (IE: Stingray/Grand Sport) / 65-80k
  • 2nd - C8 - 675HP (Performance) (IE: Z06) / 95-115k
  • 3rd - C8 - 775HP (IE: ZR1) /125k-145k
  • 4th - C8 Zora - 850HP (IE: C8-R) / 160k-190k
Originally Posted by Hammerhead69 View Post

I don’t doubt the incremental models you’re mentioning. I’m just predicting that even the C8 “Stingray” will be marketed as an upscale improvement over the C7 Stingray & prices will start @ $90k minimum with the Zora @ $170k minimum. Ferrari is going to be mentioned a lot in the marketing of this thing & even at $100 to $120k it can still be referred to as an affordable alternative to Ferrari. That’s how they’ll try to justify a much higher base price than any Corvette before it.

Last edited by KGrant; 12-31-2018 at 08:22 AM.
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Old 12-31-2018, 08:45 AM
  #28  
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Originally Posted by KGrant View Post
There will be an upscale version later but not initially! Think about the current C7 and the order that they introduced leading up to the high-end ZR1. The Stingray and Grand Sport represent 60% of all corvette sales. The ZR1 is a niche car and not for most people. They need volume sales to justify the investment to their shareholders. GM is a publicly traded company and profits will come with the volume car.
C7 Release History:
  • 1st - Stingray / Z51 / 460HP / 55k-75k
  • 2nd - Z06 / 650HP / 95k-115k
  • 3rd - Grand Sport 460HP / 60k-75k
  • 4th - ZR1 / 755HP / 125k-135k
The C8 will follow the same sequence as they will first tease with the C8 entry level 550HP model that they will expect to drive the larger volume to pay for the investment cost of the C8. They will then follow up with the more powerful performance version with slight change of the looks and about 675HP, Then they will release a 775HP version followed by the Zora version which will the statement car of 850HP and the C8 I suspect will be lighter as well and thus faster. I suggest it will be something like below:

C8 Release Schedule GUESS:
  • 1st - C8 - 550HP (Entry Level) (IE: Stingray/Grand Sport) / 65-80k
  • 2nd - C8 - 675HP (Performance) (IE: Z06) / 95-115k
  • 3rd - C8 - 775HP (IE: ZR1) /125k-145k
  • 4th - C8 Zora - 850HP (IE: C8-R) / 160k-190k
Your numbers are off:
C7 Release History:
  • 1st - Stingray / Z51 / 455HP / 52k-80k - the NPP was optional on both the Base and Z51 for the 1st half of 2014.
  • 2nd - Z06 / 650HP / 80k-105k - The 1LZ started at $79,995 in 2015.
  • 3rd - Grand Sport 460HP / 65.5k-85k - the 2017 GS with started at $65,495 + $995 freight
  • 4th - ZR1 / 755HP / 120k-145k
C8 Release Schedule GUESS:
  • 1st - C8 - 550HP (Entry Level) (IE: Stingray/Grand Sport) / 65-80k
  • 2nd - C8 - 675HP (Performance) (IE: Z06) / 95-115k
  • 3rd - C8 - 775HP (IE: ZR1) /125k-145k
  • 4th - C8 Zora - 850HP (IE: C8-R) / 160k-190k
And, if your prediction of 550 hp for a base ME is accurate, there is zero chance it starts at $65k - you are basically suggesting a GS with 90 additional hp and a DCT for less money than the current GS 1LT M7 - that is a pipe dream = no generation of Corvette has ever had an MSRP lower than the prior generation.
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Old 12-31-2018, 08:47 AM
  #29  
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The car will be compared to exotics but only in a way that it will cost half the price and equals and/or exceeds the performance of the 300k+ exotics. The Corvette is a "CHEVROLET" which is for the hard working class and the Exotic buyers are million and billionaires who owns the car as a badge of success.

This C8 will show that you can build an affordable car to compete with Exotics for half the price and that the average working class can afford for those who saved a few dollars for discretionary spending.

If you want Corvette to be looked at like an exotic then you will need to re-brand it and make it a stand-alone Brand with multiple offerings ALA Porsche which to sustain the Porsche brand has the Panamera 4-dr sedan, Macan and Cayenne SUV, and a variety of Boxsters/Caymans, 911s, GTS and the coming Taycan electric.

I will add that I think something is up with Cadillac using the same platform and having a 200k+ V Series to round out the V Series line which would match the Euro/German Luxury brands performance sports car and sedans. This will help with the investment recoupment for the C8.

Originally Posted by Hammerhead69 View Post

I believe GM is trying to change the image of the Corvette to appeal to the more “sophisticated” buyer & I find it hard to believe this car won’t be compared to the Italian exotics since Chevy is basically mimicking them. Either way, hopefully we’ll find out within a few months.

Last edited by KGrant; 12-31-2018 at 08:48 AM.
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Old 12-31-2018, 10:47 AM
  #30  
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Originally Posted by KGrant View Post
The car will be compared to exotics but only in a way that it will cost half the price and equals and/or exceeds the performance of the 300k+ exotics. The Corvette is a "CHEVROLET" which is for the hard working class and the Exotic buyers are million and billionaires who owns the car as a badge of success.
That’s the point I’m trying to make. If the Corvette is compared to a $300k exotic in looks & performance then it would be considered a bargain even at $100k. Also, you mention that a Corvette is still a Chevrolet meant for the hard working class but I’ll argue that a Tahoe is also just a Chevrolet but people still pay over $60k for some models.
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Old 12-31-2018, 11:11 AM
  #31  
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Regardless, a Corvette starting at $90K will cut Corvette sales in half. I can't imagine any sane CEO and Board approving such a decision and discarding a decades old successful business model.
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Old 12-31-2018, 11:44 AM
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Originally Posted by Foosh View Post
Regardless, a Corvette starting at $90K will cut Corvette sales in half. I can't imagine any sane CEO and Board approving such a decision and discarding a decades old successful business model.
Exactly right. Many, including myself, have been hammering this to the point of over exhaustion.

There is no way Corvette's entry level price goes any higher than 15-20% more than it already is (starting MSRP $65k). The car will die if it does and the corvette owner/faithful will not buy a Camaro because of the "bargain performance" over a Corvette for a million reasons, mainly how much better of a driver's car and how sexy the Corvette is in comparison. Camaro will never rival corvette in either of those two categories and will never "steal" buyers because of a new gap in price. They will simply buy another brand in the $65k range.
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Old 12-31-2018, 11:51 AM
  #33  
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The reasoning behind why we believe one person and not another is crazy. HAHAHA!!!

Last edited by ProblemHouston; 12-31-2018 at 12:02 PM.
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Old 12-31-2018, 12:57 PM
  #34  
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This all boils down to whether they build the ME only or they build both ME and FE. That is it in a nutshell. I'm betting on both going forward and most of you only the ME going forward.

There are so many on this Forum with this wet dream of an inexpensive base C8 ME. What all of you don't understand is that both ME and FE are going forward.

My discussion with one of the large critical vendors indicated a front engined C8 (Y2XX) to me. Most of you believe only one configuration going forward (even though Bowling Green has been tripled in size) and I am basing my analysis on that vendors comments to me with both C8 ME and C8 FE going forward. None of you that are predicting ME only, have yet to justify the massive expansion of Bowling Green. Not a single one of you will admit that expanding BG will most likely have other configuration's also. The C7 has a 106.7" wheelbase and the new ME scales to precisely that. That correlate's to the flexible 3 section chassis system that will fit the skillet system exactly. I'm basing my viewpoint on the premise that a entry level C8 FE will accommodate that lower price point that so many of you are freaking out about.

A C8 FE starting in the low 60's and the C8 ME starting at 80-90.

Remember Dave Hill said between 70k and 100k for the new ME. That translates to 85k barebones base.

85k - 130k Entry level ZORA 6.2L LT2 OHV V8
110k - 160K Mid Level ZORA 4.2L TT DOHC V8
135k - 190k Top Level ZORA 5.5L TT DOHC V8
For a total bandwidth of 85k - 190k

The new Porsche 911-992 appears that it will base price around the 99k range. Slightly under the 100k mark. The new ZORA will make the 911 look antiquated with it's never ending design vernacular. If they base price the ZORA at 80k to 90k it will steal a lot of Porsche people. There's just no comparison in design between the two. The ZORA is firmly going after Ferrari in design.

The pricing of the Corvette has consistently been at a 1 to 2 ratio of the 911 Porsche line up and a 1 to 3 ratio of the entry level mid- engine Ferrari's (308, 328, 348, 355, 360, 430, 458, and 488). It has been this way for 40 years at least. No different than today and it will be that way going forward with the ZORA only slightly lower percentage than the FE C7 since the ME will be moderately upscale over the FE.

There will be a C8 ME Corvette Zora and a C8 FE Corvette (Stingray, Grand Sport, ZO6, ZR1?????)

I think a question on the Corvette model nomenclature is in order. Each generational change usually was developed on a well defined chassis that was different from the prior generation chassis. I always thought that it was a mistake to assume this new ME Corvette was a C8 by this forum. From the C7 all the way back to the C1 the car was based on the front engined configuration. While the mid engine car will still be considered a Corvette I believe the use of the Zora name will indicate it as a model. The Stingray, Grand Sport, ZO6, and ZR1 names should remain as a front engined model name only thereby requiring a separate generational nomenclature for the mid engine car itself.
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Old 12-31-2018, 01:12 PM
  #35  
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LOL . . . and so it goes, over, and over, and over, and over again. This section should be renamed C8 Department of Redundancy Department.
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Old 12-31-2018, 01:22 PM
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Originally Posted by Foosh View Post
LOL . . . and so it goes, over, and over, and over, and over again. This section should be renamed C8 Department of Redundancy Department.

I should start a new speculation thread. It's warranted.

Last edited by C7pimp; 12-31-2018 at 01:22 PM.
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Old 12-31-2018, 01:44 PM
  #37  
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My point exactly! Any board or CEO/CFO that would make such a decision I would have to question their business acumen as you need volume to justify the investment what you need in a Return on that investment.

Originally Posted by Foosh View Post
Regardless, a Corvette starting at $90K will cut Corvette sales in half. I can't imagine any sane CEO and Board approving such a decision and discarding a decades old successful business model.

Last edited by KGrant; 12-31-2018 at 03:00 PM.
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Old 12-31-2018, 01:49 PM
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Originally Posted by C7pimp View Post
I should start a new speculation thread. It's warranted.
Sure, why not. Skank will be there, and maybe PCMIII will come back.
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Old 12-31-2018, 01:55 PM
  #39  
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You guy's actually think GM is going to dump 65 years of front engine Corvette design, engineering data, and knowhow just to appease a bunch of existing cheap tightwad Corvette owners that want a low entry level price. HA HA. Thats never going to happen. Their going forward and creating a whole new left hand and right hand model line to supplement the historical Corvette lineup. You guy's just have to wake up to the reality of two configurations going forward.
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Old 12-31-2018, 02:00 PM
  #40  
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That C8FE certainly is one of the best kept secrets in the history of the planet. Oh wait . . . maybe there is a reason for that. It doesn't exist.
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