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the TOTAL of ME sales in the US was probably less than 10,000 cars (including Lambo and McLaren), of which the Porsche Boxster / Cayman made up 50%. Skank's concern about low sales for an ME Corvette may well be justified.
Have you ever heard the phrase "correlation is not causation"? Are people not buying them BECAUSE they are ME, or are they not buying them because of other factors? The Boxster is probably the closest analog to a base ME C8 Corvette, as far as cost and being ME, and its sales don't look too bad. I still fully expect a ME Corvette, produced by an iconic American manufacturer and available on every street corner Chevy dealer lot, to outsell it by a substantial margin. The NSX and R8 are easily double the price of the reported (at least according to BL) base model pricing, and if there aren't many people wanting a $100k sports car, there certainly aren't that many that want one that starts at a quarter million dollars like the 488. The 4C is simply an outlier, I'm not even going to attempt to guess at it beyond maybe no one wanting a rather one-off odd looking Italian-Chrysler thingamajigger.
If I look at the FE cars, beyond the Corvette, I can easily say the Miata and BRZ sell well because you are into one in the low-mid $20's. Most anyone with a stable career can easily go out and afford one, can probably even afford one as a second toy car without too much worry. Both of them have heavy aftermarket support and real spec racing series behind them too for those of use younger folks who want to play at a race track but don't have a lifetimes worth of savings to support it. Take those two out, and everything else FE on that list numbers under 10k. As to the RE, the 911 is the staple German sports car which prints money for Porsche (not unlike the Corvette for Chevy), and does quite well for being its own engine configuration.
My big takeaway from that list would be that Corvettes are simply the best seller of a rather insignificant market, and there simply isn't enough there to really make any informed decisions on the importance of engine placement WRT people buying habits.
The Corvette is really in a unique niche of its own - NO 2-seater, either foreign or US-made has sold as well as the Corvette in US history, since its introduction in 1953-1954. The result is GM will be very careful about protecting this market niche. I would argue this sales dominance is NOT driven by performance, per se, but by perceived value, or "bang for the buck". Going to an ME layout is therefore a big risk for GM, but pricingthe car too high is an even bigger risk.
This bit I agree mostly on, I just think folks here are putting too much into the ME thing and the bulk of folks caring. The Corvette is going to sell BECAUSE it is a Corvette, as long as the perceived performance is there for the masses and the race wins and actual performance is there for the small minority that will actually use it on a regular basis. The masses, simply put, do not care about engine placement, spring rates, lateral G's, or any of that stuff that gets nitpicked here. They care about owning the pinnacle of mass produced American sports cars, which is what the Corvette will still provide them.
I hope he is right, although I don't know how many ties he retains from is days at GM. Could be speculation, but maybe he "knows a guy" on the inside. if ANYBODY on the outside has a mole on the inside its Bob.
Mainly though I just wish we knew a price so the children would stop arguing about it.
nice way of saying it will be a little more then a zr1 but whatever.
Correct, top of the model range will be more than a ZR1 whatever it is called. For me, I'm a lot more interested in the base model being a little more than a base C7, that's the number many of us are waiting on.
I have a hard time believing Bob Lutz in his pricing assessment of the ME over the C7 FE. I believe Dave McClellen and Dave Hill have a more accurate price range which matches what I'm proposing below.
The main intent of the following is to show the clear differences between the current C7 FE and what would be a required additional components of design or engineered upgrades of the ZORA ME over the C7 FE.
Current C7 bandwidth is $56,590.00 (incl. destination fee) for a barebones Stingray with zero options up to $151,000.00 for a loaded up ZR1. I've built a few on their Price and Build function and $151k is easily attained.
Tadge has mentioned numerous times of the bandwidth of the Corvette which is the absolute least expensive Corvette to the absolute most expensive optioned out Corvette. That is the price range!
I listed all the differences between the barebones Stingray and what we know from the Zerv Leak thread. I'm estimating a Bandwidth for the C8 ZORA at $85,000.00 to $190,000.00 plus or minus.
All of these have been shown on the Zerv Leaks or indicated by new GM Patent's. I've applied a value next to each that I feel is comparable to prior option pricing from Corvette and Porsche "Build and Price" functions on their websites. A extreme example of my estimated pricing is the ZF DCT transaxle that has been shown on the Zerv Leaks. It is the same unit that is on the Porsche 918 that sells from Porsche Parts for $69,239.00. I've put a very conservative estimate of only $10,000.00 on that critical line item cost of the car. It could be much higher !!
1. Enhanced and Stiffened 3 part modular Chassis with High pressure castings as seen on Zerv leaks $1,000.00
2. 4 Magnetorheological Coilover Shocks on ME vs 2 transverse leaf springs and 4 Shocks on FE C7 $2,000.00
3. 4 ZF Magnetorheological engine mounts on ME vs standard rubber composition engine mounts on FE C7 $2,000.00
4. ZF DCT Transaxle on ME vs 7sp manual or 8sp automatic with independent differential on FE C7 $10,000.00
5. 4.2L DOHC Two Stage Twin Turbo Charged V8, Gen6 LT7 5.5L DOHC Two Stage Twin Turbo Charged V8, New Gen6 LT2 6.2L OHV V8 as base engine on ME vs LT1, LT4, and LT5 on FE C7 $4,000.00
6. Integrated Intercoolers on ME vs separate intercoolers on C7 FE $500.00
7. Advanced high-pressure die-cast aluminum or magnesium structural ribbed chassis stiffeners, struts, and brackets on ME vs older generation tech on FE C7 chassis $1,000.00
8. Adaptive Aerodynamics or Active Aero as indicated in Patent Application and Zerv leaked CAD views on ME vs fixed aero components on FE C7 $3,000.00
9. Folding hardtop convertible on ME vs soft top convertible on FE C7 $6,000.00
10. Inconel tubular factory short headers on ME vs cast exhaust manifolds on FE C7 $1,000.00
11. Higher Carbon Fiber Body Panel Content on ME vs FE C7 $2,000.00
12. Precision Smooth Cast Alloy Intake Runners from Air Box to Two Stage Twin Turbochargers on ME vs none on LT1, LT4, and LT5 on FE C7 $1,000.00
13. Adjustable suspension(Front axle lift system) gaging by the pneumatic or hydraulic line apparently emanating from the bottom of the LF shock/spring assembly on ME vs none on FE C7 $2,000.00
14. Rear spoiler actuator to be piston style electronic actuator on ME vs Fixed aero on FE C7 $2,000.00
15. Dual Port and Direct injection system on ME engines vs Direct injection only on LT1 and LT4 of FE C7 $1,500.00
16. Digital Rear View Streaming Mirror/Camera will require a flat screen in dash on ME vs regular rear view mirror on FE C7 $1,000.00
17. Optional AKC ZF rear wheel steering unit on ME vs none on FE C7 $1,500.00
18. Optional State of the Art Bose Panaray Sound System on ME vs Standard Bose Sound System on FE C7 $2,000.00
19. AEB (automatic emergency braking) on ME vs none on FE C7 $500.00
20. BSP (blind spot protection) on ME vs none on FE C7 $500.00
21. Advanced mixed-material approach for the lightweight body structure on ME vs older tech on FE C7 $1,500.00
22. New Advanced Headlight and Taillight LED technologies on ME vs older generation lighting tech on FE C7 $500.00
23. FCA/FCW e.g. frontal collision avoidance/warning on ME vs none on FE C7 $500.00
24. Electro-Hydraulic Braking Assist on ME vs standard hydraulic on FE C7 $500.00
25. New ZF Steering Damper on ME vs standard on FE C7 $500.00
26. Swan Style(Aston Martin) upswing doors on ME vs standard door hinge arrangement on FE C7 $300.00
27. Possible electronically actuated manual transmission on ME vs standard manual on FE C7 $1,000.00
28. Potential Hybrid Drivetrain technology as indicated in GM Patent for ME vs none on FE C7 $3,000.00
29. Left and right hand drive for all markets worldwide on ME vs Left hand drive only on FE C7 $2,000.00
30. Potential of all wheel drive since GM has trademarked Sport Control AWD on ME vs rear wheel drive only on FE C7 $2,000.00
31. ZF electronic "Brake By Wire" system on ME vs standard Brake system on FE C7 $1,000.00
32. Higher Quality Interior standards on ME vs Interior Standards on FE C7 $5,000.00
33. The Mid-Engine Corvette's Hatch has a unique high tech design to aid cooling vs standard rear glass hatch on FE C7 $500.00
34. A GT model that is designed for Grand Touring that has higher interior standards vs FE C7 $1,000.00
35. New 12/48V Electrical System on all ZORA models vs standard 12V on FE C7 $1,000.00
36. New High Tech Laminated Corning Gorilla Glass as possible Glass spec vs standard glass on FE C7 $1,000.00
37. Potential power swinging opening doors for Swan Style Doors vs standard opening doors on FE C7 $1,000.00
Total $66,800.00
I'm estimating that $30,000.00 of the $66,800.00 will be directly attributable to the Base ME base price with the other $36,800.00 being optional add ons.
That puts the C8 ME Base price at approximately $85,000.00 to $90,000.00 where I've had it all along.
Of course my pricing estimates could be way off, but the main thrust of this exercise shows the clear difference of additional components of the ME that are not on the FE.
I could never understand how Lutz could come to a conclusion of only 5K when even he has no clue of the differences between the two cars. Dave Hill said 70k - 100k which translates to 85k. McClellen was intimating even higher. If you go through that list above one by one and really think about the comprehensive differences between the two configurations it's pretty mind blowing how much more of a car the ME is going to be over the FE. The GM beancounters will have to definitely account for every single upgrade or added component. We will have nothing to whine about whatever that number is!
I could never understand how Lutz could come to a conclusion of only 5K when even he has no clue of the differences between the two cars.
I believe that Lutz first made that statement many years ago. At the time, he was merely referring to the additional driveline (transmission/differential) cost difference.
Here are some current and direct cost comparisons that I took from my list above of the cost increases of the ZORA over the C7 FE. I then priced that same tech on the current Porsche 911 price list. As you will see, the ZORA costs are still lower than the current Porsche Pricing. That kind of comparison is very critical and enlightening to the logic.
13. Adjustable suspension(Front axle lift system) gaging by the pneumatic or hydraulic line apparently emanating from the bottom of the LF shock/spring assembly on ME vs none on FE C7 $2,000.00 (Porsche 911 $2,770.00)
17. Optional AKC ZF rear wheel steering unit on ME vs none on FE C7 $1,500.00 (Porsche 911 $2,090.00)
18. Optional State of the Art Bose Panaray Sound System on ME vs Standard Bose Sound System on FE C7 $2,000.00 (Porsche 911 $3,980.00)
20. BSP (blind spot protection) on ME vs none on FE C7 $500.00 (Porsche 911 $1,060.00)
22. New Advanced Headlight and Taillight LED technologies on ME vs older generation lighting tech on FE C7 $500.00 (Porsche 911 $2,000.00)
LOL , you guys need to watch the “ how it’s made, corvette c7” show. There is a reason the corvette is a “cheap” super car. So much of the manufacturering is automated compared to other car makers. The main difference between the c7 and a c8 is you do not need a tork tube in a c8..... sounds like one less part.... that makes it cheaper not more expensive.
I have a hard time believing Bob Lutz in his pricing assessment of the ME over the C7 FE. I believe Dave McClellen and Dave Hill have a more accurate price range which matches what I'm proposing below.
1. Enhanced and Stiffened 3 part modular Chassis with High pressure castings as seen on Zerv leaks $1,000.00
7. Advanced high-pressure die-cast aluminum or magnesium structural ribbed chassis stiffeners, struts, and brackets on ME vs older generation tech on FE C7 chassis $1,000.00
21. Advanced mixed-material approach for the lightweight body structure on ME vs older tech on FE C7 $1,500.00
26. Swan Style(Aston Martin) upswing doors on ME vs standard door hinge arrangement on FE C7 $300.00
27. Possible electronically actuated manual transmission on ME vs standard manual on FE C7 $1,000.00
37. Potential power swinging opening doors for Swan Style Doors vs standard opening doors on FE C7 $1,000.00
I could never understand how Lutz could come to a conclusion of only 5K when even he has no clue of the differences between the two cars. Dave Hill said 70k - 100k which translates to 85k. McClellen was intimating even higher. If you go through that list above one by one and really think about the comprehensive differences between the two configurations it's pretty mind blowing how much more of a car the ME is going to be over the FE. The GM beancounters will have to definitely account for every single upgrade or added component. We will have nothing to whine about whatever that number is!
Come on Skank, my research and my experience designing and building chassis permits me to comment on the design and the materials used on the C8 chassis. I have described the chassis elsewhere in these pages and I can assure you that there are more than 3 major structural components to that structure. Check out those ZERV leaked CAD files again.
I sent you a questionnaire in order for you to name the components, the materials they are made from and how the chassis is manufactured using little arrows. You never responded. Why? I have since published the correct answers. It is all documented by research activities of GM engineers and trends in the auto and aircraft industry.
I suggested that Corvette will set the standard for chassis design in cost, weight and strength properties. It will be an industry first.
Some members have suggested with reasonable conjecture why the pricing of the C8 will be the usual increase over previous models.
The power doors patent doesn't mention swan type action. They will open as per usual. See pictures.
Absolutely no structural body components. Where on earth did you get that information? You not making things up again, are you?
Electronically actuated manual transmission? You mean like pre DCT Ferrari's paddle shift system? Absurd.
What about GM's relationship with Siemans NX system and its participation in two tier voltage systems? Nearly All of GMs research is public.
$85,000.00 for the entry into the C8 would exclude a lot of potential buyers. Keep in mind, GM will need the volume of sales to justify the investment and shareholders. GM sold 41k corvettes in 2017 and about 33k in 2018. Additionally, the 120k+ ZR1 they only built/sold about 3k.
GM's bread and butter is in the affordable sports car 55-60k and not the higher end versions and to start out at 85k and add a few options and be up to 100k, they would come no where near the sales volumes needed to just justify the investment. When you look at Porsche, the higher volume vehicles are the Cayenne/Macan makes up 63% of all sales and profit and thus pays for the low volume 911s which account to about 9k volume sold.
Porsche got it right and created a platform or product line of cars/sedans/suvs and high-end sports car to fund their performance cars and have buyers staying within the product line as their life style changes. I know this is Blasphemy to some but Corvette should have been brought from up under the Chevrolet brand and became a brand of its own with an entry level for the under 40, and work their way up to the product line line, IE: 4-door sports car, SUV, C7, and then High-end C8.
The average age for corvette owner is 62 which makes it a niche market. However, for Porsche, The Porsche customer is younger. [In the U.S.] the typical 911 buyer is 46 to 65, average age 52. The Boxster buyer is 36 to 55, with an average age of 47. The Macan and Cayenne also attract young family's needed the sports car power and space for the family. My point of bring this up, having a product line across all demographics allows you to keep customers within the family as well as make bigger profits on higher volume SUVs for example that funds the development of your high performance high-end car and lower performance options.
$85,000.00 for the entry into the C8 would exclude a lot of potential buyers. Keep in mind, GM will need the volume of sales to justify the investment and shareholders. GM sold 41k corvettes in 2017 and about 33k in 2018. Additionally, the 120k+ ZR1 they only built/sold about 3k.
GM's bread and butter is in the affordable sports car 55-60k and not the higher end versions and to start out at 85k and add a few options and be up to 100k, they would come no where near the sales volumes needed to just justify the investment. When you look at Porsche, the higher volume vehicles are the Cayenne/Macan makes up 63% of all sales and profit and thus pays for the low volume 911s which account to about 9k volume sold.
Porsche got it right and created a platform or product line of cars/sedans/suvs and high-end sports car to fund their performance cars and have buyers staying within the product line as their life style changes. I know this is Blasphemy to some but Corvette should have been brought from up under the Chevrolet brand and became a brand of its own with an entry level for the under 40, and work their way up to the product line line, IE: 4-door sports car, SUV, C7, and then High-end C8.
The average age for corvette owner is 62 which makes it a niche market. However, for Porsche, The Porsche customer is younger. [In the U.S.] the typical 911 buyer is 46 to 65, average age 52. The Boxster buyer is 36 to 55, with an average age of 47. The Macan and Cayenne also attract young family's needed the sports car power and space for the family. My point of bring this up, having a product line across all demographics allows you to keep customers within the family as well as make bigger profits on higher volume SUVs for example that funds the development of your high performance high-end car and lower performance options.
Where are you getting those sales numbers?
Calendar year 2017 GM sold 25,079 in the US and 2,016 in Canada. They sold less than 1,000 in Mexico, Japan, Europe and the Mideast. That's approximately 28,000 sold worldwide in 2017.
We won't know the sales numbers for the 4th quarter of 2108, until next week, but for the first 3 quarters of calendar year 2018 is 14,880 in the US and 1,330 in Canada. Add in maybe 300-400 sold in Mexico, Japan, Europe and the Mideast and you have approximately 16,600 sold worldwide. Looks like GM will have a problem selling 20,000-21,000 in calendar year 2018.
PS. GM publishes their retails sales quarterly in each calendar year. Their publication of production numbers is by model year and is not the same as their actual sales(retail sales by Chevrolet dealers).
In 2017 worldwide Porsche did sell 161,115 Cayennes and Macans and 57,311 911's and Boxsters/Caymans. A lot of the profits from the SUV's is that they have a lot of shared parts with VW and Audi SUVs as well as being built in VW's facilities.
I did a quick google search so my numbers might not be exact and the numbers would vary on how they are being reported and point well-taken but I think you get the point.
You are right in Porsche leveraging and sharing parts with Audi and VW for their SUVs. The Porsche traditionalist thought it was blasphemy to add the Panamera 4dr sedan and the Macan and Cayenne SUVs but Porsche was daring and needed funding and the gamble resulted in more profits and it paid off tremendously.
Currently, the two Porsche SUVs makes up 63% of all sales and also funds the development of everything else. I've always thought that GM should have gone that route but I am not a traditionalist but out the box thinker. I would rather have a Corvette SUV instead of my Cayenne SUV is my point.
Originally Posted by JoesC5
Where are you getting those sales numbers?
Calendar year 2017 GM sold 25,079 in the US and 2,016 in Canada. They sold less than 1,000 in Mexico, Japan, Europe and the Mideast. That's approximately 28,000 sold worldwide in 2017.
We won't know the sales numbers for the 4th quarter of 2108, until next week, but for the first 3 quarters of calendar year 2018 is 14,880 in the US and 1,330 in Canada. Add in maybe 300-400 sold in Mexico, Japan, Europe and the Mideast and you have approximately 16,600 sold worldwide. Looks like GM will have a problem selling 20,000-21,000 in calendar year 2018.
PS. GM publishes their retails sales quarterly in each calendar year. Their publication of production numbers is by model year and is not the same as their actual sales(retail sales by Chevrolet dealers).
In 2017 worldwide Porsche did sell 161,115 Cayennes and Macans and 57,311 911's and Boxsters/Caymans. A lot of the profits from the SUV's is that they have a lot of shared parts with VW and Audi SUVs as well as being built in VW's facilities.
Bob Lutz has a consulting relationship with GM - he is a regular visitor to Warren Tech. Center. He KNOWS of what he speaks - he just acts humble because he is no longer making the engineering and marketing decisions, HIMSELF.
In any case, you can take what he says to the bank - the C8 MSRP, model for model will be about $5K more than the C7 MSRP. The only difference may be that the "base" C8 may be the equivalent of the C7 Grand Sport. It will certainly be as wide, based on photometric analysis. End of story.
12-27-2018, 09:56 AM
