Bob Lutz via Car Buzz reports C8 to cost not much more than C7
12-31-2018, 01:27 PM
#42
Yes, both in my mind, and by far the most logical and financially rational scenario. I am intimate with the corporate decision-making process and have been a party to many such decisions.
In fairness, I've also been surprised occasionally by what appeared at the time to be irrational senior mgmt. decisions, and more often than not, they were proven to be incredibly dumb decisions. Building both FE and ME 2 seat sports cars would be one of those incredibly dumb decisions. Both models would suffer reduced economies of scale price inflation in the supply chain significantly raising costs. It greatly increases development and manufacturing costs and complexity. The sales numbers in that segment and the various price brackets are also clear.
In fairness, I've also been surprised occasionally by what appeared at the time to be irrational senior mgmt. decisions, and more often than not, they were proven to be incredibly dumb decisions. Building both FE and ME 2 seat sports cars would be one of those incredibly dumb decisions. Both models would suffer reduced economies of scale price inflation in the supply chain significantly raising costs. It greatly increases development and manufacturing costs and complexity. The sales numbers in that segment and the various price brackets are also clear.
Last edited by Foosh; 12-31-2018 at 01:50 PM.
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Zaro Tundov (01-02-2019)
12-31-2018, 03:39 PM
#43
Melting Slicks
Just remember these code names. These codes say it all. They are repeated all over the internet in places like LinkedIn by people working on these variations of both Corvette configurations. This is logic.
Y1XX = C7 FE Generation
Y2XX = C8 FE Generation
ZERV= C8 ME Generation
https://jalopnik.com/heres-everythin...tte-1828418246
From the above article.
Our latest form of proof comes from engineer and supplier profiles on LinkedIn showing the work that has already been done and giving us a few more details on what is going into the car.
The next-generation Corvette currently has two working platform names, according to the public LinkedIn profiles, “Y2XX” for the standard front-engine car and “ZERV” for the mid-engine car. That’s not surprising as the C7 used the working name of “Y1XX,” and the ZERV name seems very related to the CERV name used for their mid-engine projects in the past.
Y1XX = C7 FE Generation
Y2XX = C8 FE Generation
ZERV= C8 ME Generation
https://jalopnik.com/heres-everythin...tte-1828418246
From the above article.
Our latest form of proof comes from engineer and supplier profiles on LinkedIn showing the work that has already been done and giving us a few more details on what is going into the car.
Last edited by skank; 12-31-2018 at 03:47 PM.
12-31-2018, 05:23 PM
#44
Burning Brakes
I agree with you, Foosh. The only way the ME / FE deal works is if there is a VERY large degree of commonality, which would save $$$ but compromise both designs. The outcome would STILL be about 30-40K in sales of the combined ME / FE line, but at reduced margins, unless GM raised the MSRP of one or both which would hurt the sales volume of both models.
The better approach is to build one basic chassis and then differentiate based on the powertrain and various "gee-gaws" added on to the skin (see GS, Z06, VR1 strategy.) It is amazing to me that GM can get $20K more for a Z06 over a base Stingray, when one could get equivalent performance by buying a base Stingray and then shipping to Lingenfelter (or others) to make the same mods for half the price. But since GM does it, they get to pocket the difference in profits. My guess is a Z06 really costs GM less than $5000 more to build than a base Stingray. Good on them.
The point, however, is that the existence of the base Stingray drives the premium models, not the other way around. Many of this forum are just looking at this whole business case upside down.
The better approach is to build one basic chassis and then differentiate based on the powertrain and various "gee-gaws" added on to the skin (see GS, Z06, VR1 strategy.) It is amazing to me that GM can get $20K more for a Z06 over a base Stingray, when one could get equivalent performance by buying a base Stingray and then shipping to Lingenfelter (or others) to make the same mods for half the price. But since GM does it, they get to pocket the difference in profits. My guess is a Z06 really costs GM less than $5000 more to build than a base Stingray. Good on them.
The point, however, is that the existence of the base Stingray drives the premium models, not the other way around. Many of this forum are just looking at this whole business case upside down.
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ltomn (01-01-2019)
01-01-2019, 01:52 PM
#46
Pro
I agree with you, Foosh. The only way the ME / FE deal works is if there is a VERY large degree of commonality, which would save $$$ but compromise both designs. The outcome would STILL be about 30-40K in sales of the combined ME / FE line, but at reduced margins, unless GM raised the MSRP of one or both which would hurt the sales volume of both models.
The better approach is to build one basic chassis and then differentiate based on the powertrain and various "gee-gaws" added on to the skin (see GS, Z06, VR1 strategy.) It is amazing to me that GM can get $20K more for a Z06 over a base Stingray, when one could get equivalent performance by buying a base Stingray and then shipping to Lingenfelter (or others) to make the same mods for half the price. But since GM does it, they get to pocket the difference in profits. My guess is a Z06 really costs GM less than $5000 more to build than a base Stingray. Good on them.
The point, however, is that the existence of the base Stingray drives the premium models, not the other way around. Many of this forum are just looking at this whole business case upside down.
The better approach is to build one basic chassis and then differentiate based on the powertrain and various "gee-gaws" added on to the skin (see GS, Z06, VR1 strategy.) It is amazing to me that GM can get $20K more for a Z06 over a base Stingray, when one could get equivalent performance by buying a base Stingray and then shipping to Lingenfelter (or others) to make the same mods for half the price. But since GM does it, they get to pocket the difference in profits. My guess is a Z06 really costs GM less than $5000 more to build than a base Stingray. Good on them.
The point, however, is that the existence of the base Stingray drives the premium models, not the other way around. Many of this forum are just looking at this whole business case upside down.
As for Lingenfelter, they don't do upgrades for 1/2 of what GM does them for, they do them for twice what GM does them for, or in a more reserved manner equivalent pricing...and, at GM, one receives a full GM warranty! Presently, Lingenfelter has no price scheme for C8 vehicles! Obviously, because they have not been released. However, to get to the ZR1's horsepower rating in a ZO6 it will cost you $20,495.00 at Lingenfelter. Check their website:
https://www.lingenfelter.com/categor...4_2015-16.html
I'm starting to taste that 18 year old Macallan. Thanks for reminding me Skank!
Last edited by ltomn; 01-01-2019 at 01:54 PM.
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skank (01-01-2019)
01-01-2019, 01:55 PM
#47
Melting Slicks
If I remember correctly I think Don was going to buy ltomn a 25 Year old bottle of Macallan. Boy, that's going to taste good!
Last edited by skank; 01-01-2019 at 01:58 PM.
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ltomn (01-01-2019)
01-01-2019, 03:24 PM
#48
Burning Brakes
Hey, Skank - don't do me any favors ! The bet was for 18 year old Macallan's not freaking 24 !! I've got it on the bar right now.
Seriously, hope to see youse guys and a new C8 at the Michelin BASH this coming April ! I'll buy the first round at the White Squirrel !!
Happy New Year, Everyone ! - Binger
Seriously, hope to see youse guys and a new C8 at the Michelin BASH this coming April ! I'll buy the first round at the White Squirrel !!
Happy New Year, Everyone ! - Binger
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skank (01-01-2019)
01-01-2019, 05:26 PM
#49
Burning Brakes
Itomn, I was actually thinking of this one. I almost pulled the trigger a couple years ago for my 2014 Z51 coupe. Total investment would have been about $72K. Also LPE offers a three year warranty of their own on this package.
See: https://www.lingenfelter.com/product/L010350114.html
See: https://www.lingenfelter.com/product/L010350114.html
01-02-2019, 08:21 AM
#50
Melting Slicks
This all boils down to whether they build the ME only or they build both ME and FE. That is it in a nutshell. I'm betting on both going forward and most of you only the ME going forward. There are so many on this Forum with this wet dream of an inexpensive base C8 ME. What all of you don't understand is that both ME and FE are going forward.
The new Porsche 911-992 appears that it will base price around the 99k range. Slightly under the 100k mark. The new ZORA will make the 911 look antiquated with it's never ending design vernacular. If they base price the ZORA at 80k to 90k it will steal a lot of Porsche people.
There will be a C8 ME Corvette Zora and a C8 FE Corvette (Stingray, Grand Sport, ZO6, ZR1?????)
The new Porsche 911-992 appears that it will base price around the 99k range. Slightly under the 100k mark. The new ZORA will make the 911 look antiquated with it's never ending design vernacular. If they base price the ZORA at 80k to 90k it will steal a lot of Porsche people.
There will be a C8 ME Corvette Zora and a C8 FE Corvette (Stingray, Grand Sport, ZO6, ZR1?????)
I am in the one model - ME only camp, because there is no scenario where making an expensive ($90k), but not very expensive ($300k plus) and a FE variant makes any sense - lots fewer buyers could afford the $90k ME and few would buy the FE since it is not top dog.
A very limited production ME at $300k+ in price would work if sold along with a cheaper FE, but it would make far more sense for it to be a Cadillac.
01-02-2019, 11:57 AM
#51
Melting Slicks
Read post #43. Both are happening. The question is, when they change over from the C7 FE to the C8 FE. The C8 ME will expand the Corvette market to a upper level buyer. The C8 FE will maintain the market they already have.
Last edited by skank; 01-02-2019 at 12:48 PM.
01-02-2019, 12:01 PM
#52
Pro
He was personally responsible for the demise of Exide/Chloride batteries in the UK years back!
https://www.thetruthaboutcars.com/2009/02/editorial-general-motors-death-watch-230-how-bob-lutz-helped-destroy-g/
https://www.thetruthaboutcars.com/2011/09/the-ten-myths-of-bob-lutz/
PS, Lutz rhymes with PUTZ
Last edited by PureJoy; 01-02-2019 at 12:04 PM.
01-02-2019, 01:16 PM
#53
Pro
In a waning model year, Corvette is on tap to sell better then 20,000 vehicles in 2018. This is typical over the history of the sales records. There are many sites that show these records but below is a link to one that is fairly clear:
https://www.corvsport.com/corvette-sales-volume-year/
If GM sells 21,000 Corvettes in a waning year, look at the record for 2014, 15 and 16. Those years result in excess of 37,000 sales per year on average. Compared with the waning years of the C6, the sales are 25% higher. What I am driving at is GM is getting this figured out and the popularity of the front engine version of the Corvette is showing very strong sales ,even for the time of awaiting a new model. This is plenty of reason to continue the front engine model. Put yourself in GM's shoes: why throw away 21,000 auto sales per year? Especially when added on top of what a new mid engine model can produce?
https://www.corvsport.com/corvette-sales-volume-year/
If GM sells 21,000 Corvettes in a waning year, look at the record for 2014, 15 and 16. Those years result in excess of 37,000 sales per year on average. Compared with the waning years of the C6, the sales are 25% higher. What I am driving at is GM is getting this figured out and the popularity of the front engine version of the Corvette is showing very strong sales ,even for the time of awaiting a new model. This is plenty of reason to continue the front engine model. Put yourself in GM's shoes: why throw away 21,000 auto sales per year? Especially when added on top of what a new mid engine model can produce?
01-02-2019, 02:13 PM
#54
Melting Slicks
Only if GM can’t attract new upscale buyers that were never interested with the current product. I am banking the C8 ME will achieve what GMs goal was for the C7.....and that’s to attract a younger and more affluent buying base. There are plenty of potential buyers above the $55k-$65k price point. All of the GM products currently in my garage exceed those numbers including my new 2019 GM SLT Sierra pick up. I feel Corvette has a lot of room to increase their price if they have a product that warrants it.
01-02-2019, 02:21 PM
#55
It's too big a gamble. Even the big-dollar forecasters had to "prognosticate" a dual FE and ME C8 strategy to make up for lost sales. That's not going to happen either.
All one has to do is look at the US sales numbers of ANY 2-seat sports car over $80K. That is the do not cross number for the majority of vehicle consumers. A lot of relatively wealthy consumers (myself included) will not cross that barrier because we are practical and financially prudent. Check out the link below:
What some Billionaires Drive
Maintaining current US sales volume is essential to the future of Corvette. Cutting them in half or less, it will die in 4-5 years. Betting that you'll make that up with foreign sales by instantly starting a new international dealer network from scratch is sheer lunacy. It took Porsche decades to build that worldwide network.
All one has to do is look at the US sales numbers of ANY 2-seat sports car over $80K. That is the do not cross number for the majority of vehicle consumers. A lot of relatively wealthy consumers (myself included) will not cross that barrier because we are practical and financially prudent. Check out the link below:
What some Billionaires Drive
Maintaining current US sales volume is essential to the future of Corvette. Cutting them in half or less, it will die in 4-5 years. Betting that you'll make that up with foreign sales by instantly starting a new international dealer network from scratch is sheer lunacy. It took Porsche decades to build that worldwide network.
Last edited by Foosh; 01-02-2019 at 03:34 PM.
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CorvetteBrent (01-03-2019)
01-02-2019, 02:36 PM
#56
Race Director
Only if GM can’t attract new upscale buyers that were never interested with the current product. I am banking the C8 ME will achieve what GMs goal was for the C7.....and that’s to attract a younger and more affluent buying base. There are plenty of potential buyers above the $55k-$65k price point. All of the GM products currently in my garage exceed those numbers including my new 2019 GM SLT Sierra pick up. I feel Corvette has a lot of room to increase their price if they have a product that warrants it.
does anyone ever tire of making continual deragotory remarks of the c7 ownership base...?
what contstitutes an upscale customer base? And how do you kniw what the corvette ownership base is?
what makes you think porsche ownership base is honest in their surveys?
the brand is all about projecting greater wealth than they have...most of the german automakers have convinced their ownership base that if they own or lease their german product they can pretend they are superior to others...
no offense intended but derogatory comments with regards to lacking “upscale” is literally a subjective scale..
insulting an ownership base of any brand on any forum is way too easy ...i dont understand the value to do such things...
does it somehow make you feel better to sneak in some kind of snarky remark..? What actual data or accurate information are you using to make these tyoes of claims?
ownership surveys? Half the people Owning german brands are full of crap trying to project wealth they dont actually have,
Anyone dropping 60 to 140 grand on a sports car is not chump change and to pretend it is ....is ridiculous...and the more money people really have the more they learn to respect others...not less
leasing makes up a great portion of german car ownership because the people trying to project wealth so desperately dont actually have any money.,,its swinging vine to vine like existence...but ask them on a survey and they all are super wealthy..
just something to consider as you and other people make these kind of forum comments...
GM is highly regarded by the german manufacturers top level staff for what the corvette team accomplishes with the corvette.
Last edited by JerriVette; 01-02-2019 at 02:42 PM.
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CorvetteBrent (01-03-2019)
01-02-2019, 02:37 PM
#57
Melting Slicks
Itomn, I was actually thinking of this one. I almost pulled the trigger a couple years ago for my 2014 Z51 coupe. Total investment would have been about $72K. Also LPE offers a three year warranty of their own on this package.
See: https://www.lingenfelter.com/product/L010350114.html
See: https://www.lingenfelter.com/product/L010350114.html
As for warranty from Lingenfelter, still not the same as the local Chevy dealer.
Not bashing on them, I've owned Lingenfelter engines, builds, etc in the past and have always had great success with them and I really respect them and their products. But you can't honestly say that for $10k you can match the Z06.
01-02-2019, 02:40 PM
#58
Melting Slicks
gm won big with the c7...and the c7 did a masterful job of attracting hour so called up scale buyers...
does anyone ever tire of making continual deragotory remarks of the c7 ownership base...?
what contstitutes an upscale customer base? And how do you kniw what the corvette ownership base is?
what makes you think porsche ownership base is honest in their surveys?
the brand is all about projecting greater wealth than they have...most of the german automakers have convinced their ownership base that if they own or lease their german product they can pretend they are superior to others...
no offense intended but derogatory comments with regards to lacking “upscale” is literally a subjective scale..
insulting an ownership base of any brand on any forum is way too easy ...i dont understand the value to do such things...
does it somehow make you feel better to sneak in some kind of rude remark..? What actual data or accurate information are you using to make these tyoes of claims?
ownership surveys? Half the people Owning german brands are full of crap trying to project wealth they dont actually have,
Anyone dropping 60 to 140 grand on a sports car is not chump change and to pretend it is ....is ridiculous...and the more money people really have the more they learn to respect others...not less
leasing makes up a great portion of german car ownership because the people trying to project wealth so desperately dont actually have any money.,,its swinging vine to vine like existence...but ask them on a survey and they all are super wealthy..
just something to consider as you and other people make these kind of forum comments...
GM is highly regarded by the german manufacturers top level staff for what the corvette team accomplishes with the corvette.
01-02-2019, 02:50 PM
#59
Drifting
These internal codes that are used as "evidence" of a FE/ME Corvette lineup probably indicate that early in C8 development upper level management were still hesitant to gamble on a ME Corvette. Thus Tadge's team did mock ups of both a FE and ME C8 along with a cost analysis for development and production. There was never any intent to produce both; once management green lighted the ME C8 it became the basis of the next Corvette.
My guess is that management view the Camaro as the FE sports car and the Corvette as the ME sports car. The ME C8 will give GM room to design a sexier, more mature 7th gen Camaro since there will be less risk that it will cannibalize Corvette sales.
My guess is that management view the Camaro as the FE sports car and the Corvette as the ME sports car. The ME C8 will give GM room to design a sexier, more mature 7th gen Camaro since there will be less risk that it will cannibalize Corvette sales.
Last edited by Zaro Tundov; 01-02-2019 at 03:12 PM.
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Foosh (01-02-2019)
01-02-2019, 02:53 PM
#60
Race Director
the irony is go f ..yourself,, normal human beings dont go to rennlist, ferrarichat or bimmerfest and say this crap over and over again about their favored brand...
i personally respect their favored brand when visiting their forums...as well their ownership base..
what ******** or ********* continually post over and over again on any given forum implying that those buying a 60 to 140 grand sports car is purchased by “lower class”
the only guys who would go to a forum to say stuff like that are the guys who are leasing and swinging vine to vine lifestykes which is how you “upper class” wanna bees come across to regular human beings.,
There is no need for snarky rude comments to imply that you and your bids are “superior”
lying german customer base surveys being used as a data point is stupidity at its finest..
Hapoy new year and good luck.