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C8 scoop detail hiding in plain sight?

Old 01-10-2019, 10:28 AM
  #41  
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Originally Posted by stevdug View Post


I can't help but jump in on this and comment on what I see vs. what everyone does not. I see the legs of the rack showing through what seems to be an opening in the quarter. I stuck in green lines that to me show it does seem to line up and the blue arrow points to the lighter wall behind that. I marked up the overlay with a green line which also seems to line up nicely with the real or not door lines leading into the quarter. All of you doing the renders are incredibly talented so not knocking your work but it seems everyone is trying to stick on a scoop that sticks way out from the quarter vs. letting it flow and recess in. I think letting the scoop cut in deeper will also give the car a more appealing waist vs. what seems to be more slab sided in the renders.
that is what I see also, leaving me to think that big hole will be covered with a piece of carbon or worse a plastic scoop! On the plus side the after market folks would probably love it so they could get real creative with fender scoops.
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Old 01-10-2019, 10:39 AM
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Originally Posted by Ammo View Post


that is what I see also, leaving me to think that big hole will be covered with a piece of carbon or worse a plastic scoop! On the plus side the after market folks would probably love it so they could get real creative with fender scoops.

IMO. There is no big hole in the fender image.

Note the inverted color image. You can not see the background color thru it. (Purple)

also note the Nose Clip image and the rear fender to the left. No hole.

Last edited by firstvettesoon; 01-10-2019 at 10:40 AM.
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Old 01-10-2019, 10:46 AM
  #43  
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There isn't a colored insert flush to the door line. Not even close. And since internally the scoop ducts medially and slightly superior, the top of the scoop cannot be open like some imagined from the grainy paint shop pics.





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Old 01-10-2019, 11:00 AM
  #44  
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Y’all got some good eyes. I ain’t seeing diddly!
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Old 01-10-2019, 11:37 AM
  #45  
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Originally Posted by Tom73 View Post
Why even have a side scoop? Why not have sleek/smooth sides?

The engine cooling radiators are up front. Only need for side scoops would be for rear brake cooling and any transmission and differential cooling radiators. Current C7 handles those cooling needs with smaller specialty air intakes. So why not go that way and forego the huge side scoops?
Based on the C7 ZR1 any cooling needs will be translated to the ME’s requirement for the base model up through the eventual ME ZR1? equivalent. Imagine reversing the below with modification to the ME, thus scoops will be there, size openings could vary by demand.


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Old 01-10-2019, 11:40 AM
  #46  
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A raccoon could make a nice winter home in that side air intake. I hope this isn't the final design.
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Old 01-10-2019, 11:41 AM
  #47  
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Originally Posted by Tom73 View Post
Why even have a side scoop? Why not have sleek/smooth sides?

The engine cooling radiators are up front. Only need for side scoops would be for rear brake cooling and any transmission and differential cooling radiators. Current C7 handles those cooling needs with smaller specialty air intakes. So why not go that way and forego the huge side scoops?
Right. The critical part of the side intake is for the intercoolers. Expect very different designs for N/A cars.
The intake for the TC cars is split into intercooler ducting, differential oil on the left side ducting, gearbox on the right side ducting. Maybe brakes also but I think the brakes will be at the bottom intake seen below. The naturally aspirated car probably will have an engine intake behind the side glass. A vastly complex subject that is designed by CFD modelling.
Each exchanger/radiator performs a very different duty. Oil and coolant require totally different designs which include velocity and volume changes for both or 3 mediums. An intercooler's job is the cool the very hot compressed air. The volume is much greater than the others. Coolant passes thru the radiator which is energized by the hot air. That heat has to pass thru a lot of aluminum, which is not a great conductor. Air takes this heat at an ideal velocity out the back of the car or the wheel well, like this 488 below. This is a very inefficient system. IC depends on accurate temp in and temp out ratios measurement. Cylinder outlet temperature is a central value from which an engine designer can derive information about internal component material temperatures, the quality of combustion and the power output of the cylinder concerned, for the turbocharger manufacturer – and operator – it is the temperature directly ahead of the turbocharger that is a decisive value. Temp in and temp out ratios are more critical than pressure ratios. Temp at the either side of the intercooler is a critical measurement. Temp at the front side of the intercooler and temp at the turbine inlet will determine internal combustion temps. 800+ HP cooling needs for street cars is a whole new science.

Intercooler in front of rear wheel.

Various ducting inlets in a very high pressure area.


See inter cooler inlet air and exit.

The way Ford does it. I want GM to build a $400 grand Cadillac and a $400 grand sports car. Have you seen Rolls Royce sales lately?


Brake intake cooling inlet at the bottom, intercooler and gearbox/diff oil above. Main radiator outlet on top of hood, engine oil coolers before front wheels. Intake behind side glass for N/A car.
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Old 01-10-2019, 11:56 AM
  #48  
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Originally Posted by OVR60 View Post
A raccoon could make a nice winter home in that side air intake. I hope this isn't the final design.
Have no fear, like the C6, vendors will soon offer scoop hole screen solution options for the ME.





Last edited by CRABBYJ; 01-10-2019 at 11:58 AM.
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Old 01-10-2019, 12:07 PM
  #49  
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Originally Posted by OVR60 View Post
A raccoon could make a nice winter home in that side air intake. I hope this isn't the final design.
If they are too big you will spend your weekends cleaning cats and small children out of them.
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Old 01-10-2019, 02:54 PM
  #50  
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Originally Posted by Shaka View Post
Right. The critical part of the side intake is for the intercoolers. Expect very different designs for N/A cars.
The intake for the TC cars is split into intercooler ducting, differential oil on the left side ducting, gearbox on the right side ducting. Maybe brakes also but I think the brakes will be at the bottom intake seen below. The naturally aspirated car probably will have an engine intake behind the side glass. A vastly complex subject that is designed by CFD modelling.
Each exchanger/radiator performs a very different duty. Oil and coolant require totally different designs which include velocity and volume changes for both or 3 mediums. An intercooler's job is the cool the very hot compressed air. The volume is much greater than the others. Coolant passes thru the radiator which is energized by the hot air. That heat has to pass thru a lot of aluminum, which is not a great conductor. Air takes this heat at an ideal velocity out the back of the car or the wheel well, like this 488 below. This is a very inefficient system. IC depends on accurate temp in and temp out ratios measurement. Cylinder outlet temperature is a central value from which an engine designer can derive information about internal component material temperatures, the quality of combustion and the power output of the cylinder concerned, for the turbocharger manufacturer – and operator – it is the temperature directly ahead of the turbocharger that is a decisive value. Temp in and temp out ratios are more critical than pressure ratios. Temp at the either side of the intercooler is a critical measurement. Temp at the front side of the intercooler and temp at the turbine inlet will determine internal combustion temps. 800+ HP cooling needs for street cars is a whole new science.

Intercooler in front of rear wheel.

Various ducting inlets in a very high pressure area
See inter cooler inlet air and exit.

The way Ford does it. I want GM to build a $400 grand Cadillac and a $400 grand sports car. Have you seen Rolls Royce sales lately?


Brake intake cooling inlet at the bottom, intercooler and gearbox/diff oil above. Main radiator outlet on top of hood, engine oil coolers before front wheels. Intake behind side glass for N/A car.
The C8 twin turbo V8 will use liquid charge air coolers to minimize turbo lag so there won't be any air ducting to side scoop intercoolers. Expect big heat exchangers to lurk inside the maws of the side scoops, fed by innocent-looking coolant lines.







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Old 01-11-2019, 11:39 AM
  #51  
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Originally Posted by Zaro Tundov View Post
First time seeing this picture... man this car is going to have some neat lines. Appears that it will have more curves than the C7 and not be completely sharp lines, but a mix of both. Really liking this.
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Old 01-11-2019, 11:59 AM
  #52  
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Originally Posted by Zaro Tundov View Post
The C8 twin turbo V8 will use liquid charge air coolers to minimize turbo lag so there won't be any air ducting to side scoop intercoolers. Expect big heat exchangers to lurk inside the maws of the side scoops, fed by innocent-looking coolant lines.




I guarantee that they will abandon that disastrous German invention that's why the Ferrari 488 or Ford GT system described above will be used. KAK is a Dutch word for ****. This describes the overly complex CAC system to a T. Degradation in the cooling effectiveness of a charge-air cooler (CAC) because of proximity to hot cylinder heads and turbulent airflow and inefficient liquid to air cooling, causes degradation and lowers boost pressure and raises the intake man fold temperature. As a result, the engine provides lower horsepower and higher hydrocarbon levels than the rated values especially in hot climates and slow traffic. It also requires expensive sensors that monitor the health of the air charge cooler by analyzing the intake manifold temperature signal. We are not talking about Munich's climate in Arizona in the summer.
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Old 01-11-2019, 04:49 PM
  #53  
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Originally Posted by Shaka View Post
I guarantee that they will abandon that disastrous German invention that's why the Ferrari 488 or Ford GT system described above will be used. KAK is a Dutch word for ****. This describes the overly complex CAC system to a T. Degradation in the cooling effectiveness of a charge-air cooler (CAC) because of proximity to hot cylinder heads and turbulent airflow and inefficient liquid to air cooling, causes degradation and lowers boost pressure and raises the intake man fold temperature. As a result, the engine provides lower horsepower and higher hydrocarbon levels than the rated values especially in hot climates and slow traffic. It also requires expensive sensors that monitor the health of the air charge cooler by analyzing the intake manifold temperature signal. We are not talking about Munich's climate in Arizona in the summer.
GM Powertrain uses LCACs on all their recent V6 TT engines and the C8 CAD drawings show a V8 TT with LCACs, so you can bet your *** the C8 will feature LCACs. Rather than foist a laggy turbo Corvette on the market, expect GM to deploy whatever technology necessary to eliminate lag. The 2.7T L3B in the new pickups also has clues as to how turbo lag could be minimized in the V8TT, particularly the variable cam profiles and turbo channel geometry.

Since you brought up Ford, the Shelby GT500 also relies on a LCAC, as does the Ford Super Duty Powerstroke truck. Among supercars, Bugatti and McClaren use them.

A LCAC is considerably more efficient than an ACAC (which as an engineer you should understand), but you're right that they're more susceptible to heat soak. The latest BMWs with LCACs are fine for a few laps but then the times start increasing as the coolant heats up. So GM would need to improve on BMW's design...oh wait, they did. The LF4 in the ATS-V does not heat soak on prolonged track sessions even in Arizona. So don't worry about the C8 doing it, not with two gaping side scoops along with a chopped front end filled with heat exchangers. What you should worry about is reliability. Word is that Cadillac's twin turbo sixes are hideously unreliable and have endless problems with the turbos. I talked to one guy and he said at first he loved his ATS-V and believed it was the best car he's ever owned or driven (and he's a BMW/Porsche guy), yet less than a year in it started to have turbo troubles. After repeated fixes he finally gave up and dumped it for an M240i.

As for you're hysterics over an intake manifold sensor, check out GM's "Weather Station" used in the LF4 V6TT.
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Old 01-11-2019, 05:54 PM
  #54  
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Originally Posted by Zaro Tundov View Post
GM Powertrain uses LCACs on all their recent V6 TT engines and the C8 CAD drawings show a V8 TT with LCACs, so you can bet your *** the C8 will feature LCACs. Rather than foist a laggy turbo Corvette on the market, expect GM to deploy whatever technology necessary to eliminate lag. The 2.7T L3B in the new pickups also has clues as to how turbo lag could be minimized in the V8TT, particularly the variable cam profiles and turbo channel geometry.

Since you brought up Ford, the Shelby GT500 also relies on a LCAC, as does the Ford Super Duty Powerstroke truck. Among supercars, Bugatti and McClaren use them.

A LCAC is considerably more efficient than an ACAC (which as an engineer you should understand), but you're right that they're more susceptible to heat soak. The latest BMWs with LCACs are fine for a few laps but then the times start increasing as the coolant heats up. So GM would need to improve on BMW's design...oh wait, they did. The LF4 in the ATS-V does not heat soak on prolonged track sessions even in Arizona. So don't worry about the C8 doing it, not with two gaping side scoops along with a chopped front end filled with heat exchangers. What you should worry about is reliability. Word is that Cadillac's twin turbo sixes are hideously unreliable and have endless problems with the turbos. I talked to one guy and he said at first he loved his ATS-V and believed it was the best car he's ever owned or driven (and he's a BMW/Porsche guy), yet less than a year in it started to have turbo troubles. After repeated fixes he finally gave up and dumped it for an M240i.

As for you're hysterics over an intake manifold sensor, check out GM's "Weather Station" used in the LF4 V6TT.

Ain't gonna happen, trust me.
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Old 01-11-2019, 05:55 PM
  #55  
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Originally Posted by Zaro Tundov View Post
GM Powertrain uses LCACs on all their recent V6 TT engines and the C8 CAD drawings show a V8 TT with LCACs, so you can bet your *** the C8 will feature LCACs. Rather than foist a laggy turbo Corvette on the market, expect GM to deploy whatever technology necessary to eliminate lag. The 2.7T L3B in the new pickups also has clues as to how turbo lag could be minimized in the V8TT, particularly the variable cam profiles and turbo channel geometry.

Since you brought up Ford, the Shelby GT500 also relies on a LCAC, as does the Ford Super Duty Powerstroke truck. Among supercars, Bugatti and McClaren use them.

A LCAC is considerably more efficient than an ACAC (which as an engineer you should understand), but you're right that they're more susceptible to heat soak. The latest BMWs with LCACs are fine for a few laps but then the times start increasing as the coolant heats up. So GM would need to improve on BMW's design...oh wait, they did. The LF4 in the ATS-V does not heat soak on prolonged track sessions even in Arizona. So don't worry about the C8 doing it, not with two gaping side scoops along with a chopped front end filled with heat exchangers. What you should worry about is reliability. Word is that Cadillac's twin turbo sixes are hideously unreliable and have endless problems with the turbos. I talked to one guy and he said at first he loved his ATS-V and believed it was the best car he's ever owned or driven (and he's a BMW/Porsche guy), yet less than a year in it started to have turbo troubles. After repeated fixes he finally gave up and dumped it for an M240i.

As for you're hysterics over an intake manifold sensor, check out GM's "Weather Station" used in the LF4 V6TT.
Clearly the CAD leaks and GM's past cars are all Fake News.
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Old 01-11-2019, 06:10 PM
  #56  
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Originally Posted by Tool Hoarder View Post
Clearly the CAD leaks and GM's past cars are all Fake News.
We don't know what all the problems are that are causing the delay but this is one of them. There is plenty of space for a proper air to air system. It is far less complex and much lighter. The advances in even pulsation controlled twin scroll turbines makes lag a thing of the past.
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Old 01-12-2019, 10:31 AM
  #57  
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Originally Posted by Shaka View Post
We don't know what all the problems are that are causing the delay but this is one of them. There is plenty of space for a proper air to air system. It is far less complex and much lighter. The advances in even pulsation controlled twin scroll turbines makes lag a thing of the past.
The classic cross plane V8 burble is the result of two consecutive exhaust pulses on a single cylinder bank which means such a V8 cannot have the even 180˚ exhaust pulsation necessary for high twin scroll turbo efficiency. The only solution in production for a high displacement V8 is the cross bank manifold on BMW's S63 Hot V V8, and though it's good for an extra 10 -15% performance, it's highly unreliable because of the high temps in the "V."

Here's a good article about why a cross bank manifold is necessary to even out the exhaust pulse frequency for each turbo on a cpc V8. Here's another one on the S63.

Of course the above is all moot if GM goes with a flat plane crank. Given the requirement of a Corvette to be a practical as a daily driver and road tripper I doubt they'll use one, but I guess anything is possible.

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Old 01-12-2019, 11:52 AM
  #58  
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If that is in fact the actual scoop position, I like it way more than the other interpretations we've seen so far. Looks a lot cleaner and sleeker, Exactly what I expect to see on a ME Corvette.
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Old 01-12-2019, 03:10 PM
  #59  
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Originally Posted by Zaro Tundov View Post
The classic cross plane V8 burble is the result of two consecutive exhaust pulses on a single cylinder bank which means such a V8 cannot have the even 180˚ exhaust pulsation necessary for high twin scroll turbo efficiency. The only solution in production for a high displacement V8 is the cross bank manifold on BMW's S63 Hot V V8, and though it's good for an extra 10 -15% performance, it's highly unreliable because of the high temps in the "V."

Here's a good article about why a cross bank manifold is necessary to even out the exhaust pulse frequency for each turbo on a cpc V8. Here's another one on the S63.

Of course the above is all moot if GM goes with a flat plane crank. Given the requirement of a Corvette to be a practical as a daily driver and road tripper I doubt they'll use one, but I guess anything is possible.
Wrong, grasshopper. Flat crank is never going to happen. Massive secondary shake forces that require over square B/S ratios and very small displacement. 2 Twin scroll turbos, one on each side of the bank, divide the v8 into two separate 4 cylinder engines. The LS engines have the NASCAR SB2 engine firing order which allow what is effectively even pulses via a twin scroll turbine, one each bank separately. Check out LS cylinder heads, they are not a mirror design and don't need 180' headers.
This not your twin turbo or bi-turbo set up that you speak of which requires your cross bank plenum. Twin scroll turbo system design addresses many of the shortcomings of single scroll turbo systems by separating those cylinders whose exhaust gas pulses interfere with each other. Similar in concept to pairing cylinders on race headers for N/A engines, twin scroll design pairs cylinders to one side of the turbine inlet so that the kinetic energy from the exhaust gases is recovered more efficiently by the turbine. For example, if a four-cylinder engine’s firing sequence is 1-3-4-2, cylinder 1 is ending its expansion stroke and opening its exhaust valves while cylinder 2 still has its exhaust valves open (while in its overlap period, where both the intake and exhaust valves are partially open at the same time). In a single scroll AKA undivided manifold, the exhaust gas pressure pulse from cylinder 1 is therefore going to interfere with cylinder 2’s ability to expel its exhaust gases, rather than delivering it undisturbed to the turbo’s turbine the way a twin scroll system allows.
The result of the superior scavenging effect from a twin scroll design is better pressure distribution in the exhaust ports and more efficient delivery of exhaust gas energy to the turbocharger’s turbine. This in turn allows greater valve overlap, resulting in an improved quality and quantity of the air charge entering each cylinder. In fact, with more valve overlap, the scavenging effect of the exhaust flow can literally draw more air in on the intake side while drawing out the last of the low-pressure exhaust gases, helping pack each cylinder with a denser and purer air charge. A denser and purer air charge means stronger combustion and more power.
With its greater volumetric efficiency and stronger scavenging effect, higher ignition delay can be used, which helps keep peak combustion temperature in the cylinders down. Since cooler cylinder temperatures and lower exhaust gas temperatures allows for a leaner air/fuel ratio, twin scroll turbo design has been shown to increase turbine efficiency by 7-8 percent (faster spool, quicker response) and result in fuel efficiency improvements. I can get much deeper into flat plane cranks and turbo systems even though I'm a chassis and suspension guy.
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Old 01-12-2019, 05:09 PM
  #60  
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Originally Posted by Shaka View Post
Wrong, grasshopper. Flat crank is never going to happen. Massive secondary shake forces that require over square B/S ratios and very small displacement. 2 Twin scroll turbos, one on each side of the bank, divide the v8 into two separate 4 cylinder engines. The LS engines have the NASCAR SB2 engine firing order which allow what is effectively even pulses via a twin scroll turbine, one each bank separately. Check out LS cylinder heads, they are not a mirror design and don't need 180' headers.
This not your twin turbo or bi-turbo set up that you speak of which requires your cross bank plenum. Twin scroll turbo system design addresses many of the shortcomings of single scroll turbo systems by separating those cylinders whose exhaust gas pulses interfere with each other. Similar in concept to pairing cylinders on race headers for N/A engines, twin scroll design pairs cylinders to one side of the turbine inlet so that the kinetic energy from the exhaust gases is recovered more efficiently by the turbine. For example, if a four-cylinder engine’s firing sequence is 1-3-4-2, cylinder 1 is ending its expansion stroke and opening its exhaust valves while cylinder 2 still has its exhaust valves open (while in its overlap period, where both the intake and exhaust valves are partially open at the same time). In a single scroll AKA undivided manifold, the exhaust gas pressure pulse from cylinder 1 is therefore going to interfere with cylinder 2’s ability to expel its exhaust gases, rather than delivering it undisturbed to the turbo’s turbine the way a twin scroll system allows.
The result of the superior scavenging effect from a twin scroll design is better pressure distribution in the exhaust ports and more efficient delivery of exhaust gas energy to the turbocharger’s turbine. This in turn allows greater valve overlap, resulting in an improved quality and quantity of the air charge entering each cylinder. In fact, with more valve overlap, the scavenging effect of the exhaust flow can literally draw more air in on the intake side while drawing out the last of the low-pressure exhaust gases, helping pack each cylinder with a denser and purer air charge. A denser and purer air charge means stronger combustion and more power.
With its greater volumetric efficiency and stronger scavenging effect, higher ignition delay can be used, which helps keep peak combustion temperature in the cylinders down. Since cooler cylinder temperatures and lower exhaust gas temperatures allows for a leaner air/fuel ratio, twin scroll turbo design has been shown to increase turbine efficiency by 7-8 percent (faster spool, quicker response) and result in fuel efficiency improvements. I can get much deeper into flat plane cranks and turbo systems even though I'm a chassis and suspension guy.
Wrong. If it's a CPC then it must have two sequential fires on one of the cylinder banks. As a result it cannot feed 180˚ exhaust pulses to both turbos and efficiency suffers. It'll still be a beast of a engine so few will care that it isn't perfect.
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