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on the numbers game, many folks couldn't care less how many tenths of a second faster a DCT or other auto can change gears, or how marginally faster it is around a track. it's about the driving experience itself, given very few owners buy them solely to run *****-to-the-wall on a track (1/4 or circuit) for every hour of the hobbs meter.
just like when looking at newer trucks lately when the salesmen are like, "but the auto Cummins makes a billion more torque & hp than the stick-shift... why would you want that old tech?!" to which i start my reply with "not after the sequential turbo that i'm gonna add... and either one would scoff at the piddly 6000lb trailer that i've been pulling with my half-ton for the last 8yrs, so that don't matter to me. i'd rather have something fun & engaging to drive every day."
Originally Posted by PurpleLion
I think that when people are discussing the operational characteristics of DCTs they should specify whether or not they are shifting manually (using the paddles) or letting the DCT's computer do the shifting.
It seems to me that using the paddles is not that far removed from shifting a manual. Please note, many current motorcycles can be driven without using the clutch, but they don't have DCTs.
a peterbilt can be driven without using the clutch, too. what's the point there? i used to occasionally slip-shift my pickup, too.
the difference between paddle-gear-selecting and manually shifting is the art of properly coordinating your physical movements while simultaneously concentrating on the road & your surroundings.
Originally Posted by ltomn
Your only problem is you assume that everyone that buys one of these cars wants to take it to the track. There is a major percentage of present and future owners that have no desire to do that and a DCT will serve them with utmost efficiency.
same goes the other way... tracks are <5% of my vehicular usage, and i feel so disengaged from driving when in an auto regardless of the environment - even when working the "flappy paddles" (as Mr Clarkson so eloquently calls them).
Originally Posted by kozmic
This is really a great analogy... because similar to the whole "DCT is faster around the track" comments, so too will self-driving cars be "faster around the track", being able to take a lap to an even further extreme edge of speed through monitoring all track conditions (car/road/speed/turn/wheel slip/elevation change/other cars/etc), micro-adjusting for any tiny change that a human driver would at least take a slit-second longer to react. Great comment.
reminds me of that old Forza hack when i'd go to the auto-driver learning course in a car with the trans & diff ratios as low as they'd go, and then go screaming around the course at the top of my highest gear (about 20mph) holding partial braking & full throttle along the perfect driving line so it 'learned' the max-performance characteristics of taking each turn so that it'd go all-out & spank everybody when i ran it in a normally-configured car.
and before anybody gets their panties in a bunch, none of that was intended as a 'manuals are better' or 'stick-drivers are superior' bullcrap.
it was just to highlight that different folks have different priorities in what/how the want to drive, and reiterate that no flip of a button will replace the experience of left leg actuation or rowing a shifter.
i discussed this with my son, a good grass-roots level competitive driver who has been through a few schools, heel and toes in his sleep, etc. He prefers a DCT on the road, in the country, on the track, and in town. And he REALLY loves driving. Go figure...
Has your son ever mentioned which mode,automatic or manual, he typically uses and why?
and before anybody gets their panties in a bunch, none of that was intended as a 'manuals are better' or 'stick-drivers are superior' bullcrap.
it was just to highlight that different folks have different priorities in what/how the want to drive, and reiterate that no flip of a button will replace the experience of left leg actuation or rowing a shifter.
Can agree with that. As somebody who drives a stick most everyday my panties bunch up with the implied "stick-drivers are superior". Someone patting themselves on the back for being a great driver due to pushing a clutch & moving a handle seem like a real reach with Formula I & Indy driver all push buttons to shift.
Besides I am old enough to have driven when most all cars were stick shifted.
Last edited by BEAR-AvHistory; 01-21-2019 at 11:33 AM.
I have a friend who has daily drives a Porsche C4 cabriolet with stick; he also has a Lambo Diablo with a stick and a Ferrari with paddle shifters. He says the Ferrari is like driving an auto tranny Camaro. Enough said.
The head of all Porsche GT cars, Adreas Preuninger, has an opinion about his creation, the GT3. Go to the 16 minute mark in the video on the 991.2 GT3, where he says if you want a car for the track, get the one with the PDK, and if you want to drive on the street and enjoy it, get the manual. He also says a bit earlier than that that he found it quite tiresome dealing with all the opinions about what the transmission should be, manual or PDK, so they brought back the PDK due to all the whining (my interpretation of what he said)
Now I know for guys like my track buddies including George, nothing I say will change their opinions about manuals, light cars, and NA engines, but I have a real ton of fun on track with DCT's and turbos. I do have two track buddies who each have both a Viper ACR E and an AMG GT-R, and they each like both cars on track. Your opinion may vary.
Preuninger is an enthusiast, that is why you get stick in a GT3 when most manufacturers scrapped it to save a buck in development costs. Porsche in general, has a lot of decision makers that are enthusiasts, hence they make one of the most pure sports cars still and hence they option the cars with stick when no one else would. I have a V8 all motor Cayenne with stick, it has nothing to do with speed on track, it's all about enjoyment. Preuninger also has a Dodge Ram because it's cool. He talks up DCT because he has to, with a customer base that can't be bothered to move their limbs.
I haven't driven the AMG GTR, rented one once but broke down before I could get in. In any case, I'm sure it's more of the same with turbo and DCT. The good news is that a $100,000 Nissan GT-R gives you roughly the same experience as a $300,000 Ferrari 488. So there's that. The bad news is that I can't be bothered to drive any of these DCT turbos. Next, I'm aiming to drive 458, 430 and hopefully a V12 non-turbo Aston.
Originally Posted by descartesfool
The solenoids engage the shift forks at the point where the pins stick up. So the DCT is entirely like a manual transmission with helical gear sets, dogs, etc. and has nothing in common with an automatic transmission using valve bodies and torque converters.
Here is a clutch pack from the DCT along with all of the gears and shafts. Anyone familiar with the parts in a manual transmission will recognize the DCT's parts and see they are very similar.
[...]
There is nothing to fear about a DCT, and many things to like, and that is one reason why virtually ever high end sports car on the planet currently made uses them. And like Tadge said, the manual's days are numbered. It was no surprise the new 700+ HP Mustang only comes with a DCT built by Tremec.
By the same token you can drive a Tesla or you can engage the autopilot which by virtue of a few solenoids and sensors actuate the same hardware but eliminate the driver. Is there something to fear with autopilot? If so, can't you draw a parallel here?
My last ex couldn't drive stick, as a result, for years she didn't drive any of my cars. You can talk about forks and gears all you want but the experience is what matters.
We need to draw a distinction here between things like drive by wire which may in some cases be as good as the mechanical stuff, and automation, which is taking over driver duties. I think you're missing the important bits.
I believe that Porsche brought the manual back due to market demand. Same reason that they kept the 911 when they were trying to kill it off with the 928.
I believe that Porsche brought the manual back due to market demand. Same reason that they kept the 911 when they were trying to kill it off with the 928.
this is correct. BMW is doing the same for their M cars.
We need to draw a distinction here between things like drive by wire which may in some cases be as good as the mechanical stuff, and automation, which is taking over driver duties. I think you're missing the important bits.
Which set of computers did you pull out of your cars to get that true sports car experence? Manual Steering? Manual no ABS brakes? Mag suspension? Throttle by wire? Stability control? eLSD? You know all the little stuff that takes over other duties so you can push a pedal & move a handle. You seem pretty selective in what makes up the true sports car experience & what is not allowed.
Good plan is a 1962 TR-3B for a true sports car experience.
Last edited by BEAR-AvHistory; 01-21-2019 at 04:16 PM.
this is correct. BMW is doing the same for their M cars.
There is a rumor that a stripped M3/4 version in the new G series will have a 6MT. The regular production M's will be 8ZF. Internal code is "Pure" trim. "I think M4 should be the fortress of manual," Klaus Fröhlich, head of the board of development for BMW, told Road & Track.
Last edited by BEAR-AvHistory; 01-21-2019 at 04:34 PM.
Which set of computers did you pull out of your cars to get that true sports car experence? Manual Steering? Manual no ABS brakes? Mag suspension? Throttle by wire? Stability control? eLSD? You know all the little stuff that takes over other duties so you can push a pedal & move a handle. You seem pretty selective in what makes up the true sports car experience & what is not allowed.
That's actually a good question, and each component should be evaluated separately. Unfortunately, the real world isn't as simple as one would like it to be.
Manual steering
Yes, the manual rack is the best. To make it usable you need a car that has a very light front end and moderate to low downforce. Is the manual rack in my Atom better than any of these exotics or the EPS in the Corvette? Yes! This is an easy one. The sort of feedback that I get from a manual rack that is mounted on a car with only 450lbs on the front axle is the best bar none. Hydraulic steering is the next best thing when you have too much downforce or weight on the front axle. No EPS has gotten as good as a hydraulic manual. EPS has some benefits, for example they are quieter than some hydraulic system that always whine. I also like the consistency of the EPS, where some hydraulic systems are not designed well enough to work consistently at low speeds (or perhaps there isn't enough engine torque near idle in some applications). However, the steering feedback is what is important, and there are plenty hydraulic racks that are quiet and consistent. Manual racks are virtually bulletproof, have the best feedback, and weigh next to nothing. Because EPS has been out for decades now, in cars like the 2nd gen NSX it is one of the only systems that provides some feedback, but it won't hold a candle to a manual rack. So what does feedback do for you? You get the granularity of the road under you for a more intimate feel of the road. It's easier to ascertain camber changes, and ribbed surfaces of tarmac which will have a different coefficient of friction than others. For example, Thunderhill raceway is all patched up. It took me no time to realize the darker patches have more grip than lighter patches probably due to materials used in its construction. So I changed my line, off racing line in order to pursue the stickier tarmac and lowered my laptimes accordingly. Feedback is great to learn a new road, or deal with imperfections that change daily on a road you know. Sports cars shouldn't require you to know the road 100% to drive confidently, they should instead communicate so that you can adjust your driving to suit the conditions.
Am I selective? Sure. But I think everyone should be. In some cases new tech adds to the experience, in others in detracts. You have to assess every system independently and really get your hands dirty.
Preuninger is an enthusiast, that is why you get stick in a GT3 when most manufacturers scrapped it to save a buck in development costs. Porsche in general, has a lot of decision makers that are enthusiasts, hence they make one of the most pure sports cars still and hence they option the cars with stick when no one else would. I have a V8 all motor Cayenne with stick, it has nothing to do with speed on track, it's all about enjoyment. Preuninger also has a Dodge Ram because it's cool. He talks up DCT because he has to, with a customer base that can't be bothered to move their limbs.
I haven't driven the AMG GTR, rented one once but broke down before I could get in. In any case, I'm sure it's more of the same with turbo and DCT. The good news is that a $100,000 Nissan GT-R gives you roughly the same experience as a $300,000 Ferrari 488. So there's that. The bad news is that I can't be bothered to drive any of these DCT turbos. Next, I'm aiming to drive 458, 430 and hopefully a V12 non-turbo Aston.
By the same token you can drive a Tesla or you can engage the autopilot which by virtue of a few solenoids and sensors actuate the same hardware but eliminate the driver. Is there something to fear with autopilot? If so, can't you draw a parallel here?
My last ex couldn't drive stick, as a result, for years she didn't drive any of my cars. You can talk about forks and gears all you want but the experience is what matters.
We need to draw a distinction here between things like drive by wire which may in some cases be as good as the mechanical stuff, and automation, which is taking over driver duties. I think you're missing the important bits.
NOW THAT MAKES SENSE !!! thank you.. thats a great reason to have a MT... one of the best ive ever heard... keep the chicks away from the cars..thats something im all with.... "Save Leroy!"
I believe that Porsche brought the manual back due to market demand. Same reason that they kept the 911 when they were trying to kill it off with the 928.
I would love for it to be so much demand that manuals come back to market because they are money makers. I hope that is the case. My Cayenne is only one of 129 in stick V8. Doubt they recovered their costs on that platform. Maybe they make just enough to keep it alive, but even the 911 is arguably not their money maker today.
Originally Posted by bebezote
NOW THAT MAKES SENSE !!! thank you.. thats a great reason to have a MT... one of the best ive ever heard... keep the chicks away from the cars..thats something im all with.... "Save Leroy!"
Well, I tried to teach it to her, there is a fork in all these transmissions... yadda yadda yadda, but to no avail.
That's actually a good question, and each component should be evaluated separately. Unfortunately, the real world isn't as simple as one would like it to be.
Manual steering
Yes, the manual rack is the best. To make it usable you need a car that has a very light front end and moderate to low downforce. Is the manual rack in my Atom better than any of these exotics or the EPS in the Corvette? Yes! This is an easy one. The sort of feedback that I get from a manual rack that is mounted on a car with only 450lbs on the front axle is the best bar none. Hydraulic steering is the next best thing when you have too much downforce or weight on the front axle. No EPS has gotten as good as a hydraulic manual. EPS has some benefits, for example they are quieter than some hydraulic system that always whine. I also like the consistency of the EPS, where some hydraulic systems are not designed well enough to work consistently at low speeds (or perhaps there isn't enough engine torque near idle in some applications). However, the steering feedback is what is important, and there are plenty hydraulic racks that are quiet and consistent. Manual racks are virtually bulletproof, have the best feedback, and weigh next to nothing. Because EPS has been out for decades now, in cars like the 2nd gen NSX it is one of the only systems that provides some feedback, but it won't hold a candle to a manual rack. So what does feedback do for you? You get the granularity of the road under you for a more intimate feel of the road. It's easier to ascertain camber changes, and ribbed surfaces of tarmac which will have a different coefficient of friction than others. For example, Thunderhill raceway is all patched up. It took me no time to realize the darker patches have more grip than lighter patches probably due to materials used in its construction. So I changed my line, off racing line in order to pursue the stickier tarmac and lowered my laptimes accordingly. Feedback is great to learn a new road, or deal with imperfections that change daily on a road you know. Sports cars shouldn't require you to know the road 100% to drive confidently, they should instead communicate so that you can adjust your driving to suit the conditions.
Am I selective? Sure. But I think everyone should be. In some cases new tech adds to the experience, in others in detracts. You have to assess every system independently and really get your hands dirty.
I’ve raced C5s for many years. In comparison the EPS is fantastic. Steering feel/response in Track mode is better than my C5s, no PS pump, no fluid, no leaks.
I would love for it to be so much demand that manuals come back to market because they are money makers. I hope that is the case. My Cayenne is only one of 129 in stick V8. Doubt they recovered their costs on that platform. Maybe they make just enough to keep it alive, but even the 911 is arguably not their money maker today.
Well, I tried to teach it to her, there is a fork in all these transmissions... yadda yadda yadda, but to no avail.
all good my man... I mod everything.... if I had a lawn mower... it'd have spray on it within a week... its that bad...
story of my life:
"Hi everyone... I'm bebezote, and im an addict.... god, where do I start.... its been years of spraying nitrous, e85, race gas, i even inject methanol., in the past I o ring seal my heads and block so I can take more than anyone recommends...even the hard core people look at me and shake their heads and my excess..... (sigh, looking at ground and tearing up)... im powerless over my addiction... and I'd like to apologize to absolutely NO ONE !!!... gimme the boost baby.... im outta my mind with power, drunk with power !!!"... sits back down gets ejected from another HPA (horse power addiction meeting)....
I’ve raced C5s for many years. In comparison the EPS is fantastic. Steering feel/response in Track mode is better than my C5s, no PS pump, no fluid, no leaks.
Well, the C7 EPS overheated on me in early 2015. I spent the next year making my own ducting under the car to cool the gear. If I had fluid it would have been easy to upgrade cooling as the aftermarket is well prepared for hot fluid. In contrast, I was stuck with having to fabricate my own ducts. Eventually GM released a cooling duct nearly identical to what I made. Then you take that ducted car to the road and realize you don't have enough ground clearance anymore. With heat exchanges you can have a choice of mounting, but air cooling is pretty inflexible.
The majority of EPS systems on the market are built to filter out road imperfections. You know enough to commute but it has been primarily tuned to be impervious of road irregularities. It's a luxury tool first and foremost, though I'm sure the efficiency gains are nice as well. There are plenty hydraulic systems that run cool, don't leak, don't make noise, and only need service every $80k. I think sports cars should get a top notch hydraulic system if too heavy or aero loaded, and the luxury cars should get EPS.
Originally Posted by bebezote
all good my man... I mod everything.... if I had a lawn mower... it'd have spray on it within a week... its that bad...
story of my life:
"Hi everyone... I'm bebezote, and im an addict.... god, where do I start.... its been years of spraying nitrous, e85, race gas, i even inject methanol., in the past I o ring seal my heads and block so I can take more than anyone recommends...even the hard core people look at me and shake their heads and my excess..... (sigh, looking at ground and tearing up)... im powerless over my addiction... and I'd like to apologize to absolutely NO ONE !!!... gimme the boost baby.... im outta my mind with power, drunk with power !!!"... sits back down gets ejected from another HPA (horse power addiction meeting)....
Boost is the way to power, no doubt. I am impressed with Lambo and Porsche keeping up with naturally aspirated cars but it's an uphill battle, it has been since at least the 80s.
Speaking about future potential MT options, we don't know all of the details yet, but it looks like Superformance and Shelby will finally be bringing a production GR-1 (concept cica 2005ish). Superformance had been trying to get Ford license to build for the last 5~6 years (since it is based on the original '65 Daytona Coupe), which they finally received and have said that they will work with Shelby to produce the car. If it was Ford, I would assume they would go DCT, but since it will be Superformance & Shelby, I think there is a good possibility they might just go with an MT. This car would have/would compete directly with hi-po variants of the FE Corvette (ie Z06/ZR1).
eta: quote from article (speaking about using the GT500's SC'd V8 - or one very similar - being looked at for this car):
"that whopper of a powerplant’s been mated to the Tremac dual-clutch transmission found in the GT500. “[The Tremac] is a very exciting transmission, and we are in talks with them,” says Stander. “But at this point we are also planning a six-speed manual.” "
(https://robbreport.com/motors/cars/s...-gr-1-2838505/)
That's actually a good question, and each component should be evaluated separately. Unfortunately, the real world isn't as simple as one would like it to be.
Manual steering
Yes, the manual rack is the best. To make it usable you need a car that has a very light front end and moderate to low downforce. Is the manual rack in my Atom better than any of these exotics or the EPS in the Corvette? Yes! This is an easy one. The sort of feedback that I get from a manual rack that is mounted on a car with only 450lbs on the front axle is the best bar none. Hydraulic steering is the next best thing when you have too much downforce or weight on the front axle. No EPS has gotten as good as a hydraulic manual. EPS has some benefits, for example they are quieter than some hydraulic system that always whine. I also like the consistency of the EPS, where some hydraulic systems are not designed well enough to work consistently at low speeds (or perhaps there isn't enough engine torque near idle in some applications). However, the steering feedback is what is important, and there are plenty hydraulic racks that are quiet and consistent. Manual racks are virtually bulletproof, have the best feedback, and weigh next to nothing. Because EPS has been out for decades now, in cars like the 2nd gen NSX it is one of the only systems that provides some feedback, but it won't hold a candle to a manual rack. So what does feedback do for you? You get the granularity of the road under you for a more intimate feel of the road. It's easier to ascertain camber changes, and ribbed surfaces of tarmac which will have a different coefficient of friction than others. For example, Thunderhill raceway is all patched up. It took me no time to realize the darker patches have more grip than lighter patches probably due to materials used in its construction. So I changed my line, off racing line in order to pursue the stickier tarmac and lowered my laptimes accordingly. Feedback is great to learn a new road, or deal with imperfections that change daily on a road you know. Sports cars shouldn't require you to know the road 100% to drive confidently, they should instead communicate so that you can adjust your driving to suit the conditions.
Am I selective? Sure. But I think everyone should be. In some cases new tech adds to the experience, in others in detracts. You have to assess every system independently and really get your hands dirty.
Well thanks for the input. I do drive a home built MS, MB, 5MT, LSD no nannies, 2250lbs nicely powered car most days that the weather is good. Big difference in experience from anything else I drive including my modern 6MT or 8ZF cars. Really very hard to compare a true basic MT sports car with current iterations for full road feel & attention required.
Last edited by BEAR-AvHistory; 01-21-2019 at 08:37 PM.
01-21-2019, 01:36 AM
