DCT and Turbo combo < C7 stick
01-22-2019, 09:28 PM
#121
Well there is some cross-talk. The head of M cars when questioned about the new version M5 (2.8 seconds 0-60 & 10.9/130 1/4) being AWD 8ZF only said this is the future of the M division. Good possibility if the do the 6MT 3/4 it might not be a street car maybe something like the Demon. Expect no matter what it will be a limited production & very expensive for what it is. The current M4 GTS is $140,000 about twice a typical M4. Was also the quickest BMW in the historical Lightning Laps listing.
Should make the C8 look like a deal.
Should make the C8 look like a deal.
Last edited by BEAR-AvHistory; 01-22-2019 at 09:35 PM.
01-23-2019, 05:57 AM
#122
Le Mans Master
if jag would get some cajones and build the true cx75 with twin turbines and torq vectoring 4 wd electric you would indeed see as you describe
I wouldn't mind being bored by that ride for a while. Ask Leno.
01-23-2019, 06:55 AM
#123
Race Director
Until they get to 60-80 MPH, where they fall off the performance cliff. That's what happens to current Teslas, for example.
Last edited by pdiddy972; 01-23-2019 at 08:09 AM.
01-23-2019, 07:11 AM
#124
Race Director
Ultra high percentage. Most won't give a **** if a mid engine Corvette with a DCT will go around a 3 mile track 0.00001 seconds quicker than a front engine Corvette with an A8 or a M7. Most of the talk about the mid engine/DCT superiority is nothing but bench racing for the 10 year old's on this forum.
01-23-2019, 07:24 AM
#125
Drifting
Wow...emotions are really running high re: the C8 situation. It's to where you can't even have an opinion without getting gunned down by some keyboard warrior. Geez, folks!
01-23-2019, 07:33 AM
#126
Race Director
okay, great... I have been using a clutch all my life too... cars/bikes/others... if you have as well, then I’m even more surprised by your previous comment... your opinion that a DCT could be used in similar ways as a manual, for your personal purposes, does not in any way mean there is “not really a big difference”. I actually like a good DCT for certain reasons, but “a third pedal and shifter” it will never be...
agree with the above... starting to feel like bizzaro-world around here...
01-23-2019, 09:41 AM
#128
Banned Scam/Spammer
True but kind of entertaining when viewed from the sidelines. The chrome wheels and satin jacket crowd appears to be unable to embrace the C8, ME configuration, that's their problem. This is really a good thing and a very needed new direction. A warmed over C7 with C8 designation would have been a disappointment.
01-23-2019, 09:43 AM
#129
Race Director
True but kind of entertaining when viewed from the sidelines. The chrome wheels and satin jacket crowd appears to be unable to embrace the C8, ME configuration, that's their problem. This is really a good thing and a very needed new direction. A warmed over C7 with C8 designation would have been a disappointment.
01-23-2019, 10:22 AM
#130
Le Mans Master
It is quite hard to beat electrical efficiency vs an internal combustion engine. Something to the tune of 75% conversion even with the dirtiest of power supplies. The amount of gasoline that would be roughly equivalent to a Tesla battery back is 2 gallons. Now if you were able to get more efficiency out of internal combustion than that would be another story. However it is easier said than done.True but kind of entertaining when viewed from the sidelines. The chrome wheels and satin jacket crowd appears to be unable to embrace the C8, ME configuration, that's their problem. This is really a good thing and a very needed new direction. A warmed over C7 with C8 designation would have been a disappointment.
01-23-2019, 10:41 AM
#131
Melting Slicks
I don’t think those “buggy whip” references in any way rule out recognizing that some folks prefer a less efficient approach to accomplishing a task. To this day some folks enjoy a horse and buggy. Just not large numbers. Which is really the point. Enjoy what you like and understand not everybody derives pleasure or experiences “involvement” from the same sensory inputs.
GM has done their research. If there is no stick in the C8 but there is a DCT, rest assured they did the research on buyers lost vs. buyers gained.
I've said all along, DCT is for sure the fastest way to shift the transmission. It will result in the fastest lap times, which the bench racers will care about. It is likely to help GM on warranty claims because it will prevent the destroyed clutches from those that can't drive stick, an it will eliminate the money shifts and destroyed gearboxes from the same group. If programmed right, it will shift smooth enough that the automatic drivers will be happy. They (GM) likely know they will lose a few customers just going ME, because apparently people also need to take their house with them on a weekend trip so storage space is a massive requirement as well, so losing a few due to transmission is probably in their math as well. Just as they are probably also expecting to pickup a few crossover buyers. And surely there are large numbers of those stomping their feet about not buying a ME Corvette, or not buying a non-NA Corvette, or not buying a non-manual Corvette who will cave and buy it for the performance and bench racing rights.
01-23-2019, 01:24 PM
#132
Burning Brakes
Why can't you simply accept that others' perspectives aren't "wrong" simply because they don't align with your particular perspective? If you want a DCT, by all means be happy with getting one... I for one, will be less inclined to buy the new car at any level if they do not offer a manual, and unfortunately for me, I am beginning to believe more and more that they will not.
01-23-2019, 01:34 PM
#133
Safety Car
Thread Starter
This just in, the Porsche 992 will get a manual transmission. Since to me the GT3 is only second to the V10 Lambos, a new generation of 911 with stick is really going to stick it to the competition. See what I did there? At this point manual in the C8 is merely keeping up.
Last edited by SBC_and_a_stick; 01-23-2019 at 01:36 PM.
01-23-2019, 04:36 PM
#134
Drifting
True but kind of entertaining when viewed from the sidelines. The chrome wheels and satin jacket crowd appears to be unable to embrace the C8, ME configuration, that's their problem. This is really a good thing and a very needed new direction. A warmed over C7 with C8 designation would have been a disappointment.
"...chrome wheels and satin jacket crowd..." LOL.
01-23-2019, 05:28 PM
#135
Race Director
https://teslamotorsclub.com/tmc/thre...speeds.108945/
Teslas have poor passing power due to the single gear. 0-60 is great, but above that you'll get your *** kicked by a Kia.
The sole problem with direct drive motors is you eventually become RPM limited. If you were able to factor in say an overdrive on the motor, such wouldn't be the case.
It is quite hard to beat electrical efficiency vs an internal combustion engine.
01-23-2019, 06:52 PM
#136
I owned the C7 Z06 Z07 and tracked it for three years, and now have tracked the following DCT/auto cars:
Porsche GT3 RS
Lamborghini Gallardo 550-2
Lamborghini Huracan LP610-4
Lamborghini Huracan Performante
Lamborghini Aventador S
McLaren 570S
Acura NSX
Nissan GT-R
Audi R8 V10 Plus
Ferrari 488
By far the most boring cars to drive are the turbo ones. They get the job done, indeed there is little or no lag in top of the rev range, but they are completely lifeless. Even the 488 which I expected to sound good and build up power like an NA engine had none of the charisma of the naturally aspirated cars in the group. It is beyond me why anyone would spend huge chunks of cash for cars powered by engines so dull. Porsche has proven that a 4.0L 6 cylinder all motor beetle can hang with the best boosted exotics. Isn't that something to stop and think about?
Whether a car had a DCT that was a decade old (Nissan GTR) or the best of the best (Porsche GT3 RS) was hardly noticeable. The experience is identical, and the shift speed rather irrelevant. I found two distinguishing features, both also fairly irrelevant. Some of the paddles are on the steering wheel and some are mounted to the steering column, so you have to verify which type it is before getting in. The Aventador S is the only other mention, the jolt you get in some of the modes is simply childish. None of these transmissions hold a candle to a proper h pattern stick, which lets you feel the power curve of the engine and takes real skill to drive. There is zero fun with auto transmissions as expected, they merely get the job done. Some of these DCTs fall flat on their face at 15,000 mile requiring large cash outlays to keep them going. It's the price to pay for being too lazy to learn how to drive a fun and reliable manual.
I really hope GM will release at least one version of the C8 that's stick and naturally aspirated or supercharged. In my opinion, any of these cars are fast enough. You can be competitive with them in advanced groups at HPDE without a sweat. The distinguishing factor will be how fun and exotic they are. The sweet spot for me is a V10 with stick. It sounds exotic at 1,000 rpm, something the Porsche GT3's flat 6 can't do. The throttle calibration on late V10 Lambos is insanely direct, the gas is wired straight to your tendons. Though the carbon tub McLaren was the best chassis, the all aluminum or mixed metal ones are just fine, just a bit heavier. So perhaps the best cash saving move is to keep going with aluminum frame. However, don't make it as big as the Aventador S, that car is just way too big. It's unruly to move around and when you go to the brakes it reminds you it's really a tank.
My wish for the C8 then is to keep it small, aluminum, stick, and naturally aspirated. Forget about laptimes GM, the C7 Z06/ZR1 are already fast enough. Make a true exotic for a low price while saving money on the transmission and tub materials. This is the time, since almost all exotics are starting to feel like common pedestrian modes of transportation.
Porsche GT3 RS
Lamborghini Gallardo 550-2
Lamborghini Huracan LP610-4
Lamborghini Huracan Performante
Lamborghini Aventador S
McLaren 570S
Acura NSX
Nissan GT-R
Audi R8 V10 Plus
Ferrari 488
By far the most boring cars to drive are the turbo ones. They get the job done, indeed there is little or no lag in top of the rev range, but they are completely lifeless. Even the 488 which I expected to sound good and build up power like an NA engine had none of the charisma of the naturally aspirated cars in the group. It is beyond me why anyone would spend huge chunks of cash for cars powered by engines so dull. Porsche has proven that a 4.0L 6 cylinder all motor beetle can hang with the best boosted exotics. Isn't that something to stop and think about?
Whether a car had a DCT that was a decade old (Nissan GTR) or the best of the best (Porsche GT3 RS) was hardly noticeable. The experience is identical, and the shift speed rather irrelevant. I found two distinguishing features, both also fairly irrelevant. Some of the paddles are on the steering wheel and some are mounted to the steering column, so you have to verify which type it is before getting in. The Aventador S is the only other mention, the jolt you get in some of the modes is simply childish. None of these transmissions hold a candle to a proper h pattern stick, which lets you feel the power curve of the engine and takes real skill to drive. There is zero fun with auto transmissions as expected, they merely get the job done. Some of these DCTs fall flat on their face at 15,000 mile requiring large cash outlays to keep them going. It's the price to pay for being too lazy to learn how to drive a fun and reliable manual.
I really hope GM will release at least one version of the C8 that's stick and naturally aspirated or supercharged. In my opinion, any of these cars are fast enough. You can be competitive with them in advanced groups at HPDE without a sweat. The distinguishing factor will be how fun and exotic they are. The sweet spot for me is a V10 with stick. It sounds exotic at 1,000 rpm, something the Porsche GT3's flat 6 can't do. The throttle calibration on late V10 Lambos is insanely direct, the gas is wired straight to your tendons. Though the carbon tub McLaren was the best chassis, the all aluminum or mixed metal ones are just fine, just a bit heavier. So perhaps the best cash saving move is to keep going with aluminum frame. However, don't make it as big as the Aventador S, that car is just way too big. It's unruly to move around and when you go to the brakes it reminds you it's really a tank.
My wish for the C8 then is to keep it small, aluminum, stick, and naturally aspirated. Forget about laptimes GM, the C7 Z06/ZR1 are already fast enough. Make a true exotic for a low price while saving money on the transmission and tub materials. This is the time, since almost all exotics are starting to feel like common pedestrian modes of transportation.
While I did not own any turbo exotics, I did own a few turbocharged M cars and lots of DCT cars. They are lifeless, sound terrible, and not linear. DCT is also quite boring.
The best way to describe a turbo charged engine sound is like a person who caught a cold and their voice is about to go and they are trying to scream. I truly hate it and will never own a turbo charged sports car.
01-23-2019, 07:33 PM
#137
Le Mans Master
Tesla owners seem well aware of the issue I'm discussing...
https://teslamotorsclub.com/tmc/thre...speeds.108945/
First you state they have no issue from roll speeds and then you immediately agree they do and discuss how they could mitigate it?
So? Who cares about that in a performance car? If my ICE Corvette wasted 75% of the energy of the gas it burns, but still runs away from that pig of a Tesla on a curvy road, do you think I'll care when the Tesla owner catches up and proceeds to tell me he's "won" because he's more efficient?
2. Mechanically limited as in top speed, I had that one at about 120 before I backed off. IIRC the programming cut it around 150. Took about 6 seconds (Same speed as a ZR-1 FYI) to get there and had passing speed unlike anything I have ever driven. As a comparison, A ZR-1 would out MPH it in the 1/4 and beyond. That's just how it works. Should have been more clear on that, my bad.
3. That isn't the point I was referring to. If 75% of that energy wasn't wasted you'd have equal power to an electric motor with the gearing to back it up. Actually if about 10 percent of that wasted energy were recovered and converted, 750 hp would be in the upper 900 range then. (Well not exactly, it isn't linear, but maybe 900) But that is quite hard to do, reaction kinetics are a b*tch. No model S will out handle a vette either. You're picking and choosing what to argue with, I clearly said if someone could make it more efficient....
I'll take an ICE any day of the year, but electric is going to be the future sadly. Not trying to **** on anyone, I have friends that do this crap every day and that's just the way it is trending.
Now if you excuse me, I'm going to tear down one of the engines in my garage now.
01-23-2019, 07:46 PM
#138
Safety Car
Thread Starter
I could not have said it better, truly share the same sentiments.
While I did not own any turbo exotics, I did own a few turbocharged M cars and lots of DCT cars. They are lifeless, sound terrible, and not linear. DCT is also quite boring.
The best way to describe a turbo charged engine sound is like a person who caught a cold and their voice is about to go and they are trying to scream. I truly hate it and will never own a turbo charged sports car.
I understand that in some applications an auto + turbo is welcome, for example the guy making service calls and driving 52,000 miles for work. A frugal engine that allows you to eat pizza in between those runs is well suited. But why on earth would you want the same thing in an exotic? Does it really matter how much faster you can brake the law in a 720hp turbo V8 vs a 630hp na V10? When exotics are this fast, you should try to enjoy them in another ways like enjoy their soundtrack, varying levels of clutch engagement, and feel of the road. The DCT turbo cars are simply not cars I would ever dream of owning. Isn't that the whole point of the exotic?
As a technology package, they are compelling on paper. But again, I can read the stats, I don't need to own the car. If I built it myself I suppose I could enjoy it by stats only.
Furthermore, the future is more and more likely to be electric. Soon it will be mostly about tires and how much G your vascular system can handle. Exotics should have an advantage against Teslas that can deliver similar performance, and that is how they deliver it. I'm convinced that DCT and turbo is not the way. It makes exotics less exotic, less separable, and ultimately stats cars. How long will these turbo DCTs be able to beat an electric car around a track? I presume we're only years away from that.
Last edited by SBC_and_a_stick; 01-23-2019 at 07:46 PM.
01-23-2019, 08:12 PM
#139
This just in, the Porsche 992 will get a manual transmission. Since to me the GT3 is only second to the V10 Lambos, a new generation of 911 with stick is really going to stick it to the competition. See what I did there? At this point manual in the C8 is merely keeping up.
As for turbo cars sounding poor, that is certainly a valid complaint (my wife's Cayman 718 is not a winner in the sound dept), but I can assure you that all my manual, NA die-hard track buddies think my twin turbo V-8 AMG GT-S sounds fantastic on track. But my buddy with the Viper T/A decided after he drove the 718 turbo DCT and liked it so much to go and order a 2019 turbo S with DCT. He thought the DCT and handling of the Cayman was so good that a new modern P car was just the ticket.
I can completely understand the preference for manual NA cars, but they are just a dying breed. Who knows if the next GT3 will be NA. Won't be out for a couple of years I imagine. I recently drove both a 991.2 GT3 and a 458 on track, both fabulous cars.
01-23-2019, 08:35 PM
#140
Safety Car
Thread Starter
That's true, but 992 is turbo only. Keep looking, what new sports car do you buy that has a manual and NA engine, that you would actually want. A Camaro, seriously, you would buy that? Only guy I know of who had a Camaro ZL1 1LE said that while it was very good on track, it was the worst driving car on the street as it was so incredibly stiff and hard riding and he got rid of it. I can make a list of NA manual cars, but can hardly think of any I would want to buy.
As for turbo cars sounding poor, that is certainly a valid complaint (my wife's Cayman 718 is not a winner in the sound dept), but I can assure you that all my manual, NA die-hard track buddies think my twin turbo V-8 AMG GT-S sounds fantastic on track. But my buddy with the Viper T/A decided after he drove the 718 turbo DCT and liked it so much to go and order a 2019 turbo S with DCT. He thought the DCT and handling of the Cayman was so good that a new modern P car was just the ticket.
I can completely understand the preference for manual NA cars, but they are just a dying breed. Who knows if the next GT3 will be NA. Won't be out for a couple of years I imagine. I recently drove both a 991.2 GT3 and a 458 on track, both fabulous cars.
As for turbo cars sounding poor, that is certainly a valid complaint (my wife's Cayman 718 is not a winner in the sound dept), but I can assure you that all my manual, NA die-hard track buddies think my twin turbo V-8 AMG GT-S sounds fantastic on track. But my buddy with the Viper T/A decided after he drove the 718 turbo DCT and liked it so much to go and order a 2019 turbo S with DCT. He thought the DCT and handling of the Cayman was so good that a new modern P car was just the ticket.
I can completely understand the preference for manual NA cars, but they are just a dying breed. Who knows if the next GT3 will be NA. Won't be out for a couple of years I imagine. I recently drove both a 991.2 GT3 and a 458 on track, both fabulous cars.
I think I already answered that question. I would buy either a 991.2 GT3 which I consider a new car by time of build, or a stick shift Gallardo which hasn't been built since 2013 but of which there are many examples with low miles. It doesn't have to be a 2019 with 0 miles, it's going to be used the first time I drive it anyway. Leaning heavily towards the Gallardo, I would get it today if I had garage space. Waiting on some sort of real estate reshuffling to do it. There is a good amount of stick cars that are 2019 with 0 miles but that's not necessarily my preference, you're forcing my hand here. I don't have to get a new car. Otherwise, I'm fine with my combo of stick na Atom + stick na V8 Cayenne. To be honest driving my stick V8 Cayenne is more appealing than the DCT turbo cars listed. NA V8 + VVT + VVL+variable intake manifold makes for an interesting machine. I can blip the throttle around town for matching engine speed and it's a hoot. The relatively small pistons, oversquare design, na, and direct injection allow the engine revs to climb really quickly for an aggressive noise. There is the weight of it which I'm not too crazy about but the hydraulic steering communicates nicely. It's not as though any of the cars listed are light. The NSX is only 1000 lbs off, which is roughly the difference between a Cayman and an NSX and they are both sports cars.
One can wear vintage clothes too. I don't see a problem with it. Used is ok by me. Certainly I wouldn't replace desirable with new.