DCT and Turbo combo < C7 stick
01-23-2019, 09:19 PM
#141
Race Director
I am trying to grant you the benefit of doubt that you just simply don't see the offense of your one-sided perspective, but so you understand clearly... my desire for having a true manual has nothing to do with "efficiency" of anything; it has everything to do with the reason I own my "play" car - that I like driving my ZR1 with a manual. I have also had the privilege of driving many other forms of trans, including many different versions of single and dual clutch hybrid auto's, and I still like a manual the most - heck, even the crappy auto in the C7 is faster in a line than shifted manual - don't care and will never own one of those just because it is faster in a line...
Why can't you simply accept that others' perspectives aren't "wrong" simply because they don't align with your particular perspective? If you want a DCT, by all means be happy with getting one... I for one, will be less inclined to buy the new car at any level if they do not offer a manual, and unfortunately for me, I am beginning to believe more and more that they will not.
Why can't you simply accept that others' perspectives aren't "wrong" simply because they don't align with your particular perspective? If you want a DCT, by all means be happy with getting one... I for one, will be less inclined to buy the new car at any level if they do not offer a manual, and unfortunately for me, I am beginning to believe more and more that they will not.
There are a couple posters here (well more than a couple) who continually claim, with no room for debate, that the DCT will be identical to a slushbox. That is the opinion which is objectively wrong, Nonetheless I have read (especially the guy who thinks he is in crazy world) very insulting BS addressed at those pointing out the obvious mechanical, operational and, yes, "feel" differences between the two trannies. I don't know if you are one of those who dismiss/ignore the "hybrid" nature of the DCT, but that's the only thing I am insistent on. You would think that would satisfy both sides.
And yet...
01-24-2019, 11:47 AM
#142
Melting Slicks
I could not have said it better, truly share the same sentiments.
While I did not own any turbo exotics, I did own a few turbocharged M cars and lots of DCT cars. They are lifeless, sound terrible, and not linear. DCT is also quite boring.
The best way to describe a turbo charged engine sound is like a person who caught a cold and their voice is about to go and they are trying to scream. I truly hate it and will never own a turbo charged sports car.
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BEAR-AvHistory (01-24-2019)
01-24-2019, 01:45 PM
#143
Safety Car
Thread Starter
https://www.tvr.co.uk/new-car
01-24-2019, 03:30 PM
#144
What is up with all the negativity? Sheesh. There are loads of choices. One can buy custom cars, kit cars, swap engines and transmissions. The possibilities are endless for the entry price of an exotic. If you must buy new and production, I think some of the coolest cars in the pipeline are stick. Look at the new TVR for example, V8, dry sump, light, rear wheel drive, and has a composite construction:
https://www.tvr.co.uk/new-car
https://www.tvr.co.uk/new-car
01-24-2019, 04:02 PM
#145
Safety Car
Thread Starter
From someone who has built his own I think you are really reaching to make a point. MT is quickly drying up in mainstream cars well up into the six figure exotic range. Agree there will be "new" MT's for a long time to come but the limitations on what they are will cut out a very large segment of "enthusiast " drivers who have neither the inclination to build one of the funds for very limited production specials.
http://www.thedrive.com/news/26144/9...gearbox-report
Still reaching?
01-24-2019, 04:29 PM
#146
Melting Slicks
What is up with all the negativity? Sheesh. There are loads of choices. One can buy custom cars, kit cars, swap engines and transmissions. The possibilities are endless for the entry price of an exotic. If you must buy new and production, I think some of the coolest cars in the pipeline are stick. Look at the new TVR for example, V8, dry sump, light, rear wheel drive, and has a composite construction:
https://www.tvr.co.uk/new-car
https://www.tvr.co.uk/new-car
And do you honestly think that most high performance enthusiasts are going to want to screw around swapping engines and transmissions in kit cars? Maybe 1% might, and that’s probably a sky high estimate. The vast majority of enthusiasts want their high performance vehicles to have modern options; to be safe, and to be road legal, and the fact is that the majority of high performance cars sold today and going forward will be turbo-charged with some form of non-manual transmission, or soon, an EV; (not for road course duties however).
Bish
01-24-2019, 04:35 PM
#147
Melting Slicks
This just in, the new 992 GT3 will come stick and naturally aspirated:
http://www.thedrive.com/news/26144/9...gearbox-report
Still reaching?
http://www.thedrive.com/news/26144/9...gearbox-report
Still reaching?
Every other mainstream 992.1 911 variant, except for the GT3 RS, will be turbocharged. It is only a matter of time before the GT variants other than the GT2/RS also become equipped with a turbo, as the limit of power out of the NA 4.0 flat six is about to be reached, and Porsche will need to keep up with their competitors.
Btw if you want to experience a turbocharged car that does not have ‘lag’ and that also has an exhaust note to die for, go and drive an AMG GT R.
Bish
01-24-2019, 04:46 PM
#148
Safety Car
Thread Starter
How about a coherent discussion point here? You can buy a stick from the past, present, and you'll be able to buy one in the future. That's the point. There were complaints in the thread that you can't but a modern stick and I showed you that you can. Then it was said that future stick cars need to be six figures, and they I showed some that will be six figures. Are we really going to debate why not every single iteration of a car is not stick and na? Who cares that not every 911 is stick and na?
This is utter nonsense. Do you go to a restaurant and eat the entire menu or do you make a choice?
And no I don't understand why engine swaps cannot be discussed. It's a realistic way to extend your options. I'm in the process of getting my second engine swap, so it's very much a reality from my point of view. Another bit of nonsense: we can't discuss engine swaps in Corvette forum. Literally the most common engine swap is a small block Chevy.
This is utter nonsense. Do you go to a restaurant and eat the entire menu or do you make a choice?
And no I don't understand why engine swaps cannot be discussed. It's a realistic way to extend your options. I'm in the process of getting my second engine swap, so it's very much a reality from my point of view. Another bit of nonsense: we can't discuss engine swaps in Corvette forum. Literally the most common engine swap is a small block Chevy.
Last edited by SBC_and_a_stick; 01-24-2019 at 04:48 PM.
01-24-2019, 09:26 PM
#149
This just in, the new 992 GT3 will come stick and naturally aspirated:
http://www.thedrive.com/news/26144/9...gearbox-report
Still reaching?
http://www.thedrive.com/news/26144/9...gearbox-report
Still reaching?
Lets go for the LOADS of choices you claim will be available. Also try the real world of new cars since you chose the new $146K (est) Porsche. Just because someone can buy a 1966 GTO MT at Mecums does not mean by any stretch of most peoples imaginations that the typical buyer represented here will be able to go out & get a NEW modern MT in the next few year.
Of course you don't want to debate every iteration because the pool is very shallow. You are on a forum where a majority of the cars are purchase for upper 5 figures not 6 figures. So rather than talking about 6 figure unobtainium MT's for the majority you might address where the LOADS of 5 figure MT cars are coming from
Last edited by BEAR-AvHistory; 01-24-2019 at 09:48 PM.
01-24-2019, 09:39 PM
#150
Le Mans Master
Every other mainstream 992.1 911 variant, except for the GT3 RS, will be turbocharged. It is only a matter of time before the GT variants other than the GT2/RS also become equipped with a turbo, as the limit of power out of the NA 4.0 flat six is about to be reached, and Porsche will need to keep up with their competitors.
Bish
01-25-2019, 02:18 PM
#151
Safety Car
Thread Starter
Yes, thats just one so far.
Lets go for the LOADS of choices you claim will be available. Also try the real world of new cars since you chose the new $146K (est) Porsche. Just because someone can buy a 1966 GTO MT at Mecums does not mean by any stretch of most peoples imaginations that the typical buyer represented here will be able to go out & get a NEW modern MT in the next few year.
Of course you don't want to debate every iteration because the pool is very shallow. You are on a forum where a majority of the cars are purchase for upper 5 figures not 6 figures. So rather than talking about 6 figure unobtainium MT's for the majority you might address where the LOADS of 5 figure MT cars are coming from
Lets go for the LOADS of choices you claim will be available. Also try the real world of new cars since you chose the new $146K (est) Porsche. Just because someone can buy a 1966 GTO MT at Mecums does not mean by any stretch of most peoples imaginations that the typical buyer represented here will be able to go out & get a NEW modern MT in the next few year.
Of course you don't want to debate every iteration because the pool is very shallow. You are on a forum where a majority of the cars are purchase for upper 5 figures not 6 figures. So rather than talking about 6 figure unobtainium MT's for the majority you might address where the LOADS of 5 figure MT cars are coming from
1. I cited at least half a dozen modern cars that are either in production or about to be with stick that are by any measure fast.
2. I reviewed ten exotics, the thread was never about Hyundai compact cars. If you can't afford them it's not the thread starters' life mission to make it so.
3. Regardless of the pool level, my review of the 10 exotics stands, and my recommendations for a C8 worth buying stand.
What this really comes down to is that I gave DCT+turbo a black eye, even for the best examples on the market. The response I'm seeing from some is that, "you have no choice, you have to buy a boring turbo powered car with automated shifts." Well, I didn't, and no one has to either.
The truth is that a competing naturally aspirated powerplant is expensive to make today as it was yesterday and it will always be. It's far easier to package, develop, and pass emissions with a turbo engine of the same output. To me this screams exotic, you have to pay to play today more than you ever had to. What the VW group achieves today via the GT3 and Lamborghini powerplants is truly breathtaking, and they do so without ever having caught up with Honda's VTEC as they do not even use variable lift. Their solenoid based variable lift was never able to keep up with the revs. The folks I rented for generally say the V10 lambos and flat 6 are bulletproof cars, so there's that too. Both the V10 and the V12 powered Lambos have recently held Nurburgring lap records. The mega-bucks hybrid cars have used naturally aspirated engines, the 918, the La Ferrari. McLaren is turbo, but they've never been an engine company, they work with an 80's Nissan block with modern turbocharging and driving it, it shows. Even McLaren decided to cut costs and not compete with their own naturally aspirated engine. Aston Martin is building a 1,000 horse naturally aspirated V10 because, well at that price level they can. And yes, it does show that Porsche's flat 6 can be further developed. Look at the specific output of the Cosworth built engine in the Aston. If you do the math, an NA 4.0 can deliver 695HP with today's technology, as proven by Cosworth. Porsche is still at 513hp.
Stick shift, believe it or not, is also about cost. It costs money to develop a car that is both DCT and manual. The provisions you have to make for 3 pedals and the shifter cost money. Since most customers buy DCT every manufacturer has to make the decision whether to invest in a manual options. I wouldn't go as far as saying stick shift is exotic, because one can develop a car stick only for less than DCT only. But no doubt, once you decide it has to have any of the auto technologies, it costs extra to make it stick as well.
So Porsche is investing in both NA and stick in the 992. They make the benchmark sports car. My opinion is that if GM wants to compete, they have to as well. Right now the C7 ZR1 is dripping with personality and it's plenty fast. I can tell a Chevy went by on track by the sound of it, and it's super fun going against someone that rows their own out there. If the C8 is just fast I think we'll lose a great car.
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01-25-2019, 05:10 PM
#152
Points of clarification:
1. I cited at least half a dozen modern cars that are either in production or about to be with stick that are by any measure fast.
2. I reviewed ten exotics, the thread was never about Hyundai compact cars. If you can't afford them it's not the thread starters' life mission to make it so.
3. Regardless of the pool level, my review of the 10 exotics stands, and my recommendations for a C8 worth buying stand.
What this really comes down to is that I gave DCT+turbo a black eye, even for the best examples on the market. The response I'm seeing from some is that, "you have no choice, you have to buy a boring turbo powered car with automated shifts." Well, I didn't, and no one has to either.
The truth is that a competing naturally aspirated powerplant is expensive to make today as it was yesterday and it will always be. It's far easier to package, develop, and pass emissions with a turbo engine of the same output. To me this screams exotic, you have to pay to play today more than you ever had to. What the VW group achieves today via the GT3 and Lamborghini powerplants is truly breathtaking, and they do so without ever having caught up with Honda's VTEC as they do not even use variable lift. Their solenoid based variable lift was never able to keep up with the revs. The folks I rented for generally say the V10 lambos and flat 6 are bulletproof cars, so there's that too. Both the V10 and the V12 powered Lambos have recently held Nurburgring lap records. The mega-bucks hybrid cars have used naturally aspirated engines, the 918, the La Ferrari. McLaren is turbo, but they've never been an engine company, they work with an 80's Nissan block with modern turbocharging and driving it, it shows. Even McLaren decided to cut costs and not compete with their own naturally aspirated engine. Aston Martin is building a 1,000 horse naturally aspirated V10 because, well at that price level they can. And yes, it does show that Porsche's flat 6 can be further developed. Look at the specific output of the Cosworth built engine in the Aston. If you do the math, an NA 4.0 can deliver 695HP with today's technology, as proven by Cosworth. Porsche is still at 513hp.
Stick shift, believe it or not, is also about cost. It costs money to develop a car that is both DCT and manual. The provisions you have to make for 3 pedals and the shifter cost money. Since most customers buy DCT every manufacturer has to make the decision whether to invest in a manual options. I wouldn't go as far as saying stick shift is exotic, because one can develop a car stick only for less than DCT only. But no doubt, once you decide it has to have any of the auto technologies, it costs extra to make it stick as well.
So Porsche is investing in both NA and stick in the 992. They make the benchmark sports car. My opinion is that if GM wants to compete, they have to as well. Right now the C7 ZR1 is dripping with personality and it's plenty fast. I can tell a Chevy went by on track by the sound of it, and it's super fun going against someone that rows their own out there. If the C8 is just fast I think we'll lose a great car.
1. I cited at least half a dozen modern cars that are either in production or about to be with stick that are by any measure fast.
2. I reviewed ten exotics, the thread was never about Hyundai compact cars. If you can't afford them it's not the thread starters' life mission to make it so.
3. Regardless of the pool level, my review of the 10 exotics stands, and my recommendations for a C8 worth buying stand.
What this really comes down to is that I gave DCT+turbo a black eye, even for the best examples on the market. The response I'm seeing from some is that, "you have no choice, you have to buy a boring turbo powered car with automated shifts." Well, I didn't, and no one has to either.
The truth is that a competing naturally aspirated powerplant is expensive to make today as it was yesterday and it will always be. It's far easier to package, develop, and pass emissions with a turbo engine of the same output. To me this screams exotic, you have to pay to play today more than you ever had to. What the VW group achieves today via the GT3 and Lamborghini powerplants is truly breathtaking, and they do so without ever having caught up with Honda's VTEC as they do not even use variable lift. Their solenoid based variable lift was never able to keep up with the revs. The folks I rented for generally say the V10 lambos and flat 6 are bulletproof cars, so there's that too. Both the V10 and the V12 powered Lambos have recently held Nurburgring lap records. The mega-bucks hybrid cars have used naturally aspirated engines, the 918, the La Ferrari. McLaren is turbo, but they've never been an engine company, they work with an 80's Nissan block with modern turbocharging and driving it, it shows. Even McLaren decided to cut costs and not compete with their own naturally aspirated engine. Aston Martin is building a 1,000 horse naturally aspirated V10 because, well at that price level they can. And yes, it does show that Porsche's flat 6 can be further developed. Look at the specific output of the Cosworth built engine in the Aston. If you do the math, an NA 4.0 can deliver 695HP with today's technology, as proven by Cosworth. Porsche is still at 513hp.
Stick shift, believe it or not, is also about cost. It costs money to develop a car that is both DCT and manual. The provisions you have to make for 3 pedals and the shifter cost money. Since most customers buy DCT every manufacturer has to make the decision whether to invest in a manual options. I wouldn't go as far as saying stick shift is exotic, because one can develop a car stick only for less than DCT only. But no doubt, once you decide it has to have any of the auto technologies, it costs extra to make it stick as well.
So Porsche is investing in both NA and stick in the 992. They make the benchmark sports car. My opinion is that if GM wants to compete, they have to as well. Right now the C7 ZR1 is dripping with personality and it's plenty fast. I can tell a Chevy went by on track by the sound of it, and it's super fun going against someone that rows their own out there. If the C8 is just fast I think we'll lose a great car.
Noticed the switch from DCT/SCT to N/A engines in your posts. Nice that you mentioned those fast Ring cars, Which one of those N/A AWD Lamborghini are running a MT?
BTW throwing out the "cant afford card" is a typical move when someone going way over the top & has nothing else going for them in the debate. Right up there with the real drivers & man pedal thing.
Last edited by BEAR-AvHistory; 01-25-2019 at 05:33 PM.
01-25-2019, 05:15 PM
#153
My wife and I daily drive a shelby gt350. I will be daily driving my 2019 ZR1 (with snow tires on both cars). 3 pedals both cars. I will never own a SUV, van, or automatic car. I told my wife she will never convince me and I am glad she supports me and puts up with me. Imagine the neighborhood school pickup line where 99% of the cars are SUVs and vans and one red sports car with hundreds of horsepower and a big american V8 and a mom drives it, looks cool
I will never own a DCT and I will never own a turbo car as my primary/fun cars. I might get so rich one day that I can afford 3-4 cars and live in a mansion with 3 garages. And maybe I can buy a shitbox SUV with a slushbox but never a sports car.
I will never own a DCT and I will never own a turbo car as my primary/fun cars. I might get so rich one day that I can afford 3-4 cars and live in a mansion with 3 garages. And maybe I can buy a shitbox SUV with a slushbox but never a sports car.
01-25-2019, 09:06 PM
#154
My wife and I daily drive a shelby gt350. I will be daily driving my 2019 ZR1 (with snow tires on both cars). 3 pedals both cars. I will never own a SUV, van, or automatic car. I told my wife she will never convince me and I am glad she supports me and puts up with me. Imagine the neighborhood school pickup line where 99% of the cars are SUVs and vans and one red sports car with hundreds of horsepower and a big american V8 and a mom drives it, looks cool
I will never own a DCT and I will never own a turbo car as my primary/fun cars. I might get so rich one day that I can afford 3-4 cars and live in a mansion with 3 garages. And maybe I can buy a shitbox SUV with a slushbox but never a sports car.
I will never own a DCT and I will never own a turbo car as my primary/fun cars. I might get so rich one day that I can afford 3-4 cars and live in a mansion with 3 garages. And maybe I can buy a shitbox SUV with a slushbox but never a sports car.
Still think some of you guys need to get over yourselves because you can drive a stick shift. My oldest daughter has been driving stick shift sports cars since she took her drivers license test on the Corvette in the 1970's. Current car is a Porsche 911 Carrera 4S 6MT, she does not even think about it just something she does very well.
BTW so there is no confusion this is her house & she pulled the shitbox SUV sulsh o matic out so the no roof car could stay out of the sun
Last edited by BEAR-AvHistory; 01-25-2019 at 09:24 PM.
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ByByBMW (01-25-2019)
01-25-2019, 10:14 PM
#155
Safety Car
Thread Starter
Well good for you. Keep aspiring for a muili car garage where you can keep your antiques out of the weather. No big deal about driving a Corvette with nannies up the wazoo on snow with snow tires. Did about 25}+ years Jersey Shore to Wall St in a '67 4MT 427 3X2 Mechinical lifter big block. No PS, PB, AC or nannies but back then it was no big deal just another car on the road.
Still think some of you guys need to get over yourselves because you can drive a stick shift. My oldest daughter has been driving stick shift sports cars since she took her drivers license test on the Corvette in the 1970's. Current car is a Porsche 911 Carrera 4S 6MT, she does not even think about it just something she does very well.
BTW so there is no confusion this is her house & she pulled the shitbox SUV sulsh o matic out so the no roof car could stay out of the sun
Still think some of you guys need to get over yourselves because you can drive a stick shift. My oldest daughter has been driving stick shift sports cars since she took her drivers license test on the Corvette in the 1970's. Current car is a Porsche 911 Carrera 4S 6MT, she does not even think about it just something she does very well.
BTW so there is no confusion this is her house & she pulled the shitbox SUV sulsh o matic out so the no roof car could stay out of the sun
Have you talked to your daughter about how wrong she is driving a car that's antique (stick and na!)? You are her father, why didn't you convince her to get one of those super modern DCT 4S with turbos if it's better for her? Better yet, why don't you get one of those super modern cars? If it's nostalgia, what's so nostalgic about a 997 911? You say she doesn't even think when she drives stick, since you know how she thinks, why did she make such a big mistake? Maybe you can learn something from her.
01-26-2019, 01:03 AM
#156
Now the plot thickens!
Have you talked to your daughter about how wrong she is driving a car that's antique (stick and na!)? You are her father, why didn't you convince her to get one of those super modern DCT 4S with turbos if it's better for her? Better yet, why don't you get one of those super modern cars? If it's nostalgia, what's so nostalgic about a 997 911? You say she doesn't even think when she drives stick, since you know how she thinks, why did she make such a big mistake? Maybe you can learn something from her.
Have you talked to your daughter about how wrong she is driving a car that's antique (stick and na!)? You are her father, why didn't you convince her to get one of those super modern DCT 4S with turbos if it's better for her? Better yet, why don't you get one of those super modern cars? If it's nostalgia, what's so nostalgic about a 997 911? You say she doesn't even think when she drives stick, since you know how she thinks, why did she make such a big mistake? Maybe you can learn something from her.
Also no whining about the future of the nostalgia cars over there either. They will still be around for anyone who wants to drive them, just a lot fewer to choose from. I feel the same way want pure nostalgia with a bit of a kick drive the Cobra 5MT. Want to step a bit into the present & a car with a roof drive the Turbo Convert with the 6MT. Want a up to-date ride take the turbo Coupe with the 8ZF.
Life is fun as long as you don't constrain yourself especially as technology improves. I remember the same whining when AT started to displace MT in everyday cars. The next big whine was Power Brakes are ending the world we have no brake feel anymore. Then it was power steering that was killing fun cars. Power windows, my God you will kill the battery. Who needs A/C in a Chevy? Every technological advance has had its Luddites. But when the Luddites try to condemn anything that does not fit their narrow world view they need some reality put into the mix.
The reality in this mix is the Corvette is not going to disappear from the face of the earth because GM elects to put a 7DCT into the C8 as its transmission. If you guys don't buy it so what someone else will see the similarities to the exotics & step right up. The Luddites can then smugly think & comment on the internet how stupid all those people are while the new owners will just go on enjoying their rides.
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PurpleLion (01-26-2019)
01-26-2019, 01:54 AM
#157
Safety Car
Thread Starter
Not much of a plot to thicken. She likes to drive a MT thinks its fun just like I do. That said no closed minds that the world is about to end as the MT dries up, their other car the newer 2018 is a Turbo PDK & the SUV is a 8TS automatic. They pretty much have it covered.
Also no whining about the future of the nostalgia cars over there either. They will still be around for anyone who wants to drive them, just a lot fewer to choose from. I feel the same way want pure nostalgia with a bit of a kick drive the Cobra 5MT. Want to step a bit into the present & a car with a roof drive the Turbo Convert with the 6MT. Want a up to-date ride take the turbo Coupe with the 8ZF.
Life is fun as long as you don't constrain yourself especially as technology improves. I remember the same whining when AT started to displace MT in everyday cars. The next big whine was Power Brakes are ending the world we have no brake feel anymore. Then it was power steering that was killing fun cars. Power windows, my God you will kill the battery. Who needs A/C in a Chevy? Every technological advance has had its Luddites. But when the Luddites try to condemn anything that does not fit their narrow world view they need some reality put into the mix.
The reality in this mix is the Corvette is not going to disappear from the face of the earth because GM elects to put a 7DCT into the C8 as its transmission. If you guys don't buy it so what someone else will see the similarities to the exotics & step right up. The Luddites can then smugly think & comment on the internet how stupid all those people are while the new owners will just go on enjoying their rides.
Also no whining about the future of the nostalgia cars over there either. They will still be around for anyone who wants to drive them, just a lot fewer to choose from. I feel the same way want pure nostalgia with a bit of a kick drive the Cobra 5MT. Want to step a bit into the present & a car with a roof drive the Turbo Convert with the 6MT. Want a up to-date ride take the turbo Coupe with the 8ZF.
Life is fun as long as you don't constrain yourself especially as technology improves. I remember the same whining when AT started to displace MT in everyday cars. The next big whine was Power Brakes are ending the world we have no brake feel anymore. Then it was power steering that was killing fun cars. Power windows, my God you will kill the battery. Who needs A/C in a Chevy? Every technological advance has had its Luddites. But when the Luddites try to condemn anything that does not fit their narrow world view they need some reality put into the mix.
The reality in this mix is the Corvette is not going to disappear from the face of the earth because GM elects to put a 7DCT into the C8 as its transmission. If you guys don't buy it so what someone else will see the similarities to the exotics & step right up. The Luddites can then smugly think & comment on the internet how stupid all those people are while the new owners will just go on enjoying their rides.
If your answer from above is yes, does that make your daughter a luddite, because she comes from a family of luddites?
Many millennials think that walking to work is the future, and they don't own a car. Does that makes us both luddites just by merely owning cars?
If the answer above is yes, then can you be a luddite for wanting less technology?
If I drive a car with stick but I have air conditioning, am I still a luddite or does that vindicate me?
If a new technology flops, and gets replaced by the old technology, are you luddite for using the better but older technology?
If I'm poor and can only afford an old stick shift car but prefer a newer automatic car am I still a luddite, or does my purchasing power relegate me to being a luddite?
Is merely having a preference for a technology package make one a luddite?
If my mom drives an automatic turbo car, does that vindicate me from being a luddite?
If you claimed automatic is the future in '55 but stickshift was still being made in 2019, does that make me a luddite for wanting a manual?
If every technology is being replaced at some point, aren't we all luddites just for liking what we see?
If in the long run we're all dead, does that make me a luddite for being alive?
Should we allow a guy who has no preferences but hides behind nostalgia, his purchasing power and his daughter's choices to decide what a luddite is?
01-27-2019, 12:18 AM
#158
Team Owner
You can get a 911 a direct competitor to the Corvette.
01-27-2019, 12:20 AM
#159
Team Owner
01-27-2019, 02:01 AM
#160
Excellent exchange from owners much more knowledgeable on the specific subject than me.
IMHO the best written arguments come from the "anti-OP" camp and yes..the "let technology prevail" camp is a very persuasive message!
Yet..I am siding with SBC this time (it's usually 50/50) and I am going to try an analogy with the music industry (which I know a lot about) to support SBC's point...
You all remember the music industry switch from analog to digital right!? vinyl and tape to CDs and MP3s...
All done for the sake of "better!! cleaner, less noise, crisper high frequencies and on and on.. Digital wins!
Fast forward to today and substitute analog with shifter and technology with experience...
It has been empirically proven that the analog sound experience is actually better and the industry switch to digital was simply done to revolutionize music delivery with portability and convenience.
In short the music "experience" is delivered better even if the actual music is worse! at least that is what I am getting out of SBC.
I know enough to state there is no way 911 is adding turbos for a skimpy 20HPs! We all know it is about emissions/gas consumptions laws and yes the message is you can have your cake and eat it too! (just like digital music) but it is fundamentally not true. Turbos and DCTs are gas savings technologies conflated as driving improvements and yet like SBC says..(just for digital music in the headphones) don't feel it where it counts.
So this is what is going to happen... analog music is back as a evident "better" nuanced listening experience at 3x the original price..
Stick shift will come back at 3x the original price as well...
Meet the 2020/21 200K plus base GT3..
IMHO the best written arguments come from the "anti-OP" camp and yes..the "let technology prevail" camp is a very persuasive message!
Yet..I am siding with SBC this time (it's usually 50/50) and I am going to try an analogy with the music industry (which I know a lot about) to support SBC's point...
You all remember the music industry switch from analog to digital right!? vinyl and tape to CDs and MP3s...
All done for the sake of "better!! cleaner, less noise, crisper high frequencies and on and on.. Digital wins!
Fast forward to today and substitute analog with shifter and technology with experience...
It has been empirically proven that the analog sound experience is actually better and the industry switch to digital was simply done to revolutionize music delivery with portability and convenience.
In short the music "experience" is delivered better even if the actual music is worse! at least that is what I am getting out of SBC.
I know enough to state there is no way 911 is adding turbos for a skimpy 20HPs! We all know it is about emissions/gas consumptions laws and yes the message is you can have your cake and eat it too! (just like digital music) but it is fundamentally not true. Turbos and DCTs are gas savings technologies conflated as driving improvements and yet like SBC says..(just for digital music in the headphones) don't feel it where it counts.
So this is what is going to happen... analog music is back as a evident "better" nuanced listening experience at 3x the original price..
Stick shift will come back at 3x the original price as well...
Meet the 2020/21 200K plus base GT3..