DCT and Turbo combo < C7 stick
#61
Drifting
Would think same with the sLSD as the ECU senses differences in rear wheel speed or total slippage. I have been driving MT's since my drivers license test in 1959. Still have 3 in the driveway. That said the 7DCT is my personal favorite & would look forward to a C8 with one if I go that way.
As posted by "descartesfool" this is a really big deal: "They are often most amazed by how the transmission can up-shift mid-corner so seamlessly it does not upset the car". Wish my fun car had one.
Last edited by BEAR-AvHistory; 01-20-2019 at 04:02 PM.
#62
Burning Brakes
Most people who swear by sticks like virtually all my track buddies have never driven a car with a DCT on track, so they don't really know the benefits or drawbacks (can't think of any). But a few of them who have ridden with me on track said, "I guess all that shifting stuff is for the birds".
#63
Most people who swear by sticks like virtually all my track buddies have never driven a car with a DCT on track, so they don't really know the benefits or drawbacks (can't think of any). But a few of them who have ridden with me on track said, "I guess all that shifting stuff is for the birds". One of those guys is the one who just ordered a P car with a PDK for the track. They are often most amazed by how the transmission can up-shift mid-corner so seamlessly it does not upset the car. That's something I could never do on track with a manual. Just one of the factors that makes a DCT tranny faster on track.
Here is another picture, a cut-way of an AWD DCT showing the input shaft/flange inline with the dual clutch-pack at the front and then the gear-sets behind. The two clutch packs are located inline one behind the other, as shown in the cut-away. Shift forks are under the gear-sets in this picture so you can't see them. You can clearly see the gold colored synchro-rings just as found in any manual transmission. This is a rear-mounted trans-axle like a C7 with the diff in the back of the transmission. As it is AWD, there is a separate output shaft driven by a gear via a multi-plate clutch pack you can see in the cut-away.
Here is a video of a ZF transmission as used by Porsche with a similar but different design for a DCT.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_c...&v=cd10wif87Qk
Another benefit of a DCT people often do not realize is that you can never mis-shift it, as when you want to upshift to 4th gear from 3rd under full acceleration but mistakenly put it into 2nd gear, and over-rev and destroy your engine unless you are fast with the clutch. In a DCT, the computer just won't ever let you do that. Gives you the option of full manual shifting but eliminates engine destroying mis-shifts.
Here is another picture, a cut-way of an AWD DCT showing the input shaft/flange inline with the dual clutch-pack at the front and then the gear-sets behind. The two clutch packs are located inline one behind the other, as shown in the cut-away. Shift forks are under the gear-sets in this picture so you can't see them. You can clearly see the gold colored synchro-rings just as found in any manual transmission. This is a rear-mounted trans-axle like a C7 with the diff in the back of the transmission. As it is AWD, there is a separate output shaft driven by a gear via a multi-plate clutch pack you can see in the cut-away.
Here is a video of a ZF transmission as used by Porsche with a similar but different design for a DCT.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_c...&v=cd10wif87Qk
Another benefit of a DCT people often do not realize is that you can never mis-shift it, as when you want to upshift to 4th gear from 3rd under full acceleration but mistakenly put it into 2nd gear, and over-rev and destroy your engine unless you are fast with the clutch. In a DCT, the computer just won't ever let you do that. Gives you the option of full manual shifting but eliminates engine destroying mis-shifts.
or snap a shaft anywhere, input , drive,, strip gears.. the 121 is a terrible experience..
#64
Drifting
BMW has finally canned the MT in the 3/4 series with the new generation. They are rumored to be going to offer a stripped M3/4 track day car with an MT but that is their only concession to the MT market & they will cost through the nose compared to ZF8 or 7DCT.
Don't know what the 2018 take rate was but the Corvette Museum listed 23% for 2016. It been falling steadily so would see the logic in offering the DCT.
Last edited by BEAR-AvHistory; 01-20-2019 at 04:18 PM.
#65
Burning Brakes
Think its a nostalgia thing & certainly guys get enjoyment out of a good MT shift. Problem is that is a shrinking MT user world & the general wants to sell cars. Think he will make up quite a bit more (but where are you going to go) then he loses dropping the MT.
BMW has finally canned the MT in the 3/4 series with the new generation. They are rumored to be going to offer a stripped M3/4 track day car with an MT but that is their only concession to the MT market & they will cost through the nose compared to ZF8 or 7DCT.
Don't know what the 2018 take rate was but the Corvette Museum listed 23% for 2016. It been falling steadily so would see the logic in offering the DCT.
BMW has finally canned the MT in the 3/4 series with the new generation. They are rumored to be going to offer a stripped M3/4 track day car with an MT but that is their only concession to the MT market & they will cost through the nose compared to ZF8 or 7DCT.
Don't know what the 2018 take rate was but the Corvette Museum listed 23% for 2016. It been falling steadily so would see the logic in offering the DCT.
I am still waiting to see what the new ME car actually brings, and I am not fully ruling it out even if it ships as DCT-only, but the absence of a manual option will definitely make me consider other options (options including other DCT-only vehicles, other manual vehicles, or perhaps building my own).
Last edited by kozmic; 01-20-2019 at 04:34 PM.
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vndkshn (01-22-2019)
#66
Drifting
Yeah, I can see that too... you'll never see me say that a DCT isn't a great option, but I do prefer the manual... and that is just it... "I" "prefer"... so I just have to laugh at a few folks around here can't seem to stop trying to convince people that others' "opinions" or "preferences" are "wrong".
I am still waiting to see what the new ME car actually brings, and I am not fully ruling it out even if it ships as DCT-only, but the absence of a manual option will definitely make me consider other options (options including other DCT-only vehicles, other manual vehicles, or perhaps building my own).
I am still waiting to see what the new ME car actually brings, and I am not fully ruling it out even if it ships as DCT-only, but the absence of a manual option will definitely make me consider other options (options including other DCT-only vehicles, other manual vehicles, or perhaps building my own).
I am still going back & forth on a C7 now & a C8 later or just wait for the C8. Just what my wife wants to see & hear, another loud car.
Last edited by BEAR-AvHistory; 01-20-2019 at 05:04 PM.
#67
Le Mans Master
my car is a daily driver and a manual is a must. If I was road coarse track only I would sooner consider an dct auto but would likely still go manual. A daily driver would suck as an auto.
#68
Safety Car
Member Since: Feb 2016
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You are really missing the point. And numbingly repetitive to boot!
The guy you are "arguing" with is not saying what you say he is saying.
descartesfool's excellent post lays it out clearly. The DCT is internally almost identical to the typical stick many of us have operated for many years (in my case 40 WITHOUT owning any slushboxes). It is truly a hybrid. And so, to your left foot it won't feel ANYTHING like a clutch operated manual, but to your butt it will feel the same but much quicker. As you use it, it will perform better than either, though obviously you will need to find something to do with your left foot.
That will appeal to many manual lovers (I personally believe more than half), and probably prettty much all slushbox lovers. I can only speak for myself -- I would NEVER have a slushbox (at least like any one I have ever been forced to drive over the last 4 decades) -- but, if I am fortunate enough to afford a C8 before I am too old to enjoy it, I would be excited about the DCT.
I mean, I see your point, and the Nally's chili can example is really funny, but why can't you understand that we all get, and have gotten every time this stupid debate has cropped up, that the DCT has an automatically operated clutch (well, for efficiency, two of them) and therefore is different from today's M7 -- but those differences are far less important to some folks than others.
The guy you are "arguing" with is not saying what you say he is saying.
descartesfool's excellent post lays it out clearly. The DCT is internally almost identical to the typical stick many of us have operated for many years (in my case 40 WITHOUT owning any slushboxes). It is truly a hybrid. And so, to your left foot it won't feel ANYTHING like a clutch operated manual, but to your butt it will feel the same but much quicker. As you use it, it will perform better than either, though obviously you will need to find something to do with your left foot.
That will appeal to many manual lovers (I personally believe more than half), and probably prettty much all slushbox lovers. I can only speak for myself -- I would NEVER have a slushbox (at least like any one I have ever been forced to drive over the last 4 decades) -- but, if I am fortunate enough to afford a C8 before I am too old to enjoy it, I would be excited about the DCT.
I mean, I see your point, and the Nally's chili can example is really funny, but why can't you understand that we all get, and have gotten every time this stupid debate has cropped up, that the DCT has an automatically operated clutch (well, for efficiency, two of them) and therefore is different from today's M7 -- but those differences are far less important to some folks than others.
The DCT is an automatic and the manual is not. You are NOT required to DO ANYTHING AT ALL to shift a DCT. Just press on the accelerator. No intervention required. Zero. Nada. It does it ALL for you. Oh, wait! There's more! You can put it in "manual" mode (cough.) And what does "manual" mode mean? It means you can flip a switch to shift gears. Oh, I'm sorry! You call it a "paddle" (meaning it's a big switch, but it's still a damn switch.) If that's "less important to you" then fine. Lots of people like automatics.
Next you will be telling us an auto-driving car is really the same as a car you physically drive because, after all, you are still telling the car where to go and the "difference is less important to some folks than others."
That will appeal to many manual lovers (I personally believe more than half)
Last edited by mschuyler; 01-20-2019 at 08:02 PM.
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pdiddy972 (01-23-2019)
#69
The part of shifting that is not reflex is deciding when to shift up, down and what gear to use (this implies that you are operating the DCT in manual mode). I personally would not drive a DCT in automatic mode and therefore give up this important aspect of control especially if driving on a track.
Last edited by PurpleLion; 01-20-2019 at 08:26 PM.
#70
Le Mans Master
Oh for Crap's Sake! I can't take you people seriously. The internals of this issue are completely totally irrelevant. To say that a DCT "has a clutch" but just lacks the pedal means everything is the same? You claim the flipping a freaking paddle on the steering wheel us THE SAME AS shifting gears? Really? I'll tell you what the actual difference is:
The DCT is an automatic and the manual is not. You are NOT required to DO ANYTHING AT ALL to shift a DCT. Just press on the accelerator. No intervention required. Zero. Nada. It does it ALL for you. Oh, wait! There's more! You can put it in "manual" mode (cough.) And what does "manual" mode mean? It means you can flip a switch to shift gears. Oh, I'm sorry! You call it a "paddle" (meaning it's a big switch, but it's still a damn switch.) If that's "less important to you" then fine. Lots of people like automatics.
Next you will be telling us an auto-driving car is really the same as a car you physically drive because, after all, you are still telling the car where to go and the "difference is less important to some folks than others."
No, it won't. That is completely delusional.
The DCT is an automatic and the manual is not. You are NOT required to DO ANYTHING AT ALL to shift a DCT. Just press on the accelerator. No intervention required. Zero. Nada. It does it ALL for you. Oh, wait! There's more! You can put it in "manual" mode (cough.) And what does "manual" mode mean? It means you can flip a switch to shift gears. Oh, I'm sorry! You call it a "paddle" (meaning it's a big switch, but it's still a damn switch.) If that's "less important to you" then fine. Lots of people like automatics.
Next you will be telling us an auto-driving car is really the same as a car you physically drive because, after all, you are still telling the car where to go and the "difference is less important to some folks than others."
No, it won't. That is completely delusional.
Yup
#72
Burning Brakes
This is really a great analogy... because similar to the whole "DCT is faster around the track" comments, so too will self-driving cars be "faster around the track", being able to take a lap to an even further extreme edge of speed through monitoring all track conditions (car/road/speed/turn/wheel slip/elevation change/other cars/etc), micro-adjusting for any tiny change that a human driver would at least take a slit-second longer to react. Great comment.
Last edited by kozmic; 01-20-2019 at 11:33 PM.
#73
This is really a great analogy... because similar to the whole "DCT is faster around the track" comments, so too will self-driving cars be "faster around the track", being able to take a lap to an even further extreme edge of speed through monitoring all track conditions (car/road/speed/turn/wheel slip/elevation change/other cars/etc), micro-adjusting for any tiny change that a human driver would at least take a slit-second longer to react. Great comment.
#74
Burning Brakes
Self driving cars is a conversation that doesn't need to happen. The tech is nowhere near ready, there is no need to even talk about it. The change from cars that we can drive and personalize to transportation pods owned by companies such as Uber and only used when people need them is not going to happen in our lifetime.
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#75
We are not going to see cars become soulless boring transportation pods in our lifetime. It's just not going to happen. Sure, computers have quicker reaction times than humans, but computers simply can not account for all the possibilities of hazards we encounter on the road all the time. Plus, even if the technology SOMEHOW happens, cost is going to be a big factor, plus just the massive amount of people that will not be interested. For many reasons, many simply will not even step foot inside one of these self driving vehicles becuase they do not trust the machine to out their life in its hands. The rest will just prefer to drive themselves.
#76
Race Director
Oh for Crap's Sake! I can't take you people seriously. The internals of this issue are completely totally irrelevant. To say that a DCT "has a clutch" but just lacks the pedal means everything is the same? You claim the flipping a freaking paddle on the steering wheel us THE SAME AS shifting gears? Really? I'll tell you what the actual difference is:
The DCT is an automatic and the manual is not. You are NOT required to DO ANYTHING AT ALL to shift a DCT. Just press on the accelerator. No intervention required. Zero. Nada. It does it ALL for you. Oh, wait! There's more! You can put it in "manual" mode (cough.) And what does "manual" mode mean? It means you can flip a switch to shift gears. Oh, I'm sorry! You call it a "paddle" (meaning it's a big switch, but it's still a damn switch.) If that's "less important to you" then fine. Lots of people like automatics.
Next you will be telling us an auto-driving car is really the same as a car you physically drive because, after all, you are still telling the car where to go and the "difference is less important to some folks than others."
No, it won't. That is completely delusional.
The DCT is an automatic and the manual is not. You are NOT required to DO ANYTHING AT ALL to shift a DCT. Just press on the accelerator. No intervention required. Zero. Nada. It does it ALL for you. Oh, wait! There's more! You can put it in "manual" mode (cough.) And what does "manual" mode mean? It means you can flip a switch to shift gears. Oh, I'm sorry! You call it a "paddle" (meaning it's a big switch, but it's still a damn switch.) If that's "less important to you" then fine. Lots of people like automatics.
Next you will be telling us an auto-driving car is really the same as a car you physically drive because, after all, you are still telling the car where to go and the "difference is less important to some folks than others."
No, it won't. That is completely delusional.
1. Find where I said it is “the same.” I didn’t. Most other posters on this thread understand the differences among a DCT, a slushbox, and a manual. Your rants suggest you do not.
2. I have spoken to many manual owners/fans (like me) how they would feel about a DCT. Most have no problem; many think it would be a blast. It is a small sample and does include a few who have tried DCT’s. None of them fly into a lather over the issue.
You are remarkably intolerant of those whose left feet do not require constant stimulation while driving.
Sad...
#77
Burning Brakes
We are not going to see cars become soulless boring transportation pods in our lifetime. It's just not going to happen. Sure, computers have quicker reaction times than humans, but computers simply can not account for all the possibilities of hazards we encounter on the road all the time. Plus, even if the technology SOMEHOW happens, cost is going to be a big factor, plus just the massive amount of people that will not be interested. For many reasons, many simply will not even step foot inside one of these self driving vehicles becuase they do not trust the machine to out their life in its hands. The rest will just prefer to drive themselves.
Last edited by kozmic; 01-21-2019 at 12:05 AM.
#78
Race Director
This is really a great analogy... because similar to the whole "DCT is faster around the track" comments, so too will self-driving cars be "faster around the track", being able to take a lap to an even further extreme edge of speed through monitoring all track conditions (car/road/speed/turn/wheel slip/elevation change/other cars/etc), micro-adjusting for any tiny change that a human driver would at least take a slit-second longer to react. Great comment.
And yet, in the end, I like being behind the wheel even though slower. Similarly, the idea of a self-driving car saddens me, and yet I’d be fine with a DCT.
i discussed this with my son, a good grass-roots level competitive driver who has been through a few schools, heel and toes in his sleep, etc. He prefers a DCT on the road, in the country, on the track, and in town. And he REALLY loves driving. Go figure...
He’s REALLY looking forward to owning a DCT C8...I’m looking forward to driving it.
#79
Burning Brakes