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Please, Chevrolet....NO Start/Stop Technology on C8

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Please, Chevrolet....NO Start/Stop Technology on C8

Old 01-28-2019, 08:09 PM
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My VW Golf R has stop/start. These cars are great "grocery getters". Limited release to USA, AWD, DCT, etc., etc. So...If I come to a stop with light pressure on the brake pedal the engine will not shut off. Harder pressure on the pedal and it shuts off, but before I can lift off the brake pedal the car starts again. Very fast. No lurching upon throttle. However, I live in a rural area, and perhaps I wouldn't like it if I lived in the city. So depending on how it is engineered, it may not be so bad.
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Old 01-28-2019, 08:11 PM
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I hope someone shows me how to turn that stop start crap off if the C8 has it what insanity
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Old 01-28-2019, 08:14 PM
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Every new car will have it... just need to live with it.

If the C8 doesn't have it, I'll be shocked. Even the AMG GT R has it and that's a hard core car. Worse case is you get in, start the car and press a button to disable it. Done.
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Old 01-28-2019, 08:27 PM
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Originally Posted by gthal View Post
Every new car will have it... just need to live with it.

If the C8 doesn't have it, I'll be shocked. Even the AMG GT R has it and that's a hard core car. Worse case is you get in, start the car and press a button to disable it. Done.
Nah... worst case is, a lot of folks just won't be upgrading to the ME car... simple fix is to provide the tech as an optional switch that can be turned off for those who don't want it, or turned on for those who do.

The worst thing any company can do, is try to make preference decisions for its customers, assuming there's an easy solution for providing the choice, etc.
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Old 01-28-2019, 08:39 PM
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Originally Posted by Walter Raulerson View Post
I hope someone shows me how to turn that stop start crap off if the C8 has it what insanity
I heard "from a reliable source" that the C8 will have what they call Atkinson-Super-Cycle Deactivation (drops down to 2 cylinders with each cylinder receiving a fire cycle every 4th revolution). Cylinder deactivation and the stop start can not be bypassed since its needed to meet current mpg regs. NOT... LOL!
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Old 01-28-2019, 08:45 PM
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Yes, they can forgo putting that on. You simply pay the resulting penalty.

Which on this particular car, a low volume (relatively speaking) sports car which will be 30-40k units a year in a 17 million unit/yr auto market, should be the default stance taken by the GM. If in fact after doing so, its customer based requested they install it in order to avoid a higher purchase price, then it could be added.
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Old 01-28-2019, 08:56 PM
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Originally Posted by Newdude View Post
Its going to have it. Its potential purchasers will need to get over it. GM will most likely toss in a disable button, simple as hitting it each time you drive it.

These "dreaded" features are what allows cars like this to be built in the first place. Get used to them or buy old cars.
I'd be curious what these "features" save over the life of the car....as far as these things make these cars possible, thats complete bullshit, if these ******** spent more time tuning these cars for maximum performance and MPG none of these "features" would be needed.
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Old 01-28-2019, 09:28 PM
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The fact is that the US regulations end up requiring it, at least de facto. A significant portion of the EPA fuel economy testing is done at idle. The regulations are so stringent for both a specific car and as a manufacturer that companies who produce cars have limited options. Although laws cannot be written to mandate the specific way to acheive the result, the laws are sometimes outpacing the current technology. Manufacturers need to throw every trick they can find at the designs, even if these are more expensive or annoying to customers.

I have some experience in standard writing in coordination with government agencies. I do not know this for a fact in this case, but I suspect rules have been refined to complete fuel economy testing in "as started" condition without disabling functions. This would likely mean that the default on most all future cars would be "on".

GM does not want to do this. The large investment in R&D for such a feature not likely valued by customers is a poor investment, but is required to do business.

This comes about only based on the political climate. Your neighbors have decided to put representation in place that enact regulations that essentially mandate these types of solutions. I very much try to take a balanced viewpoint on these types of issues, but I feel that many of regulations infrige on my liberty without truly protecting the liberty of others. Products are manufactured with higher cost components or designs that ultimately the consumer pays for without being able to choose.

I got a Audi A6 for a rental a couple months ago. The start-stop was jarring at times and there was hesitation at others. I am very hopeful that GM can avoid this on the C8, but I am not optimistic.
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Old 01-28-2019, 10:05 PM
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the current way the law is written you don't have much of a choice. That's why the early C4s had the 4+3, there wasn't a stout enough 6 speed available and a 4 speed didn't meet the shifting pattern thing or something. The EPA is weird. Having to deal with them only a couple times they don't make life easier on the development end... just makes you get more creative in finding the loopholes.
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Old 01-28-2019, 10:29 PM
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Originally Posted by Tool Hoarder View Post

It saves fuel at the expense of your starter and engine wear, but the OEMs don't care about the latter because once out of warranty it's not their problem.

It's not a matter of them "not caring." It's a matter of the Feds forcing them to do it.
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Old 01-28-2019, 10:44 PM
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Do you want 500+ hp on base cars or do you not want S/S?

S/S exists for one reason: emissions and fuel economy numbers. If you make it permanently disableable, you can't run EPA tests with it, plain and simple. The only reason it exists is to make those numbers better, therefore it is pointless to allow a permanent shut off and lose that advantage. Would you prefer the emissions complying 180hp C3s, or do you like the power you get at the expense of S/S?

Retrogrouches who hate any new tech should have already picked the old car they are going to live the rest of their life with, this stuff isn't going away.
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Old 01-28-2019, 10:47 PM
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You won't see any more key starts in Corvette. The 21st Century is filled with technology, including Corvette.
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Old 01-28-2019, 11:38 PM
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Originally Posted by Atari_Prime View Post
What year is your XC90? The system can be shut off in all 2019 XC90s. 2018s can be shut off as well but you must go to the dealership for a software update.
Mine is a late 2016 T6 Momentum+. I'm coming up on 30K trouble-free miles and intend to replace it in the spring with another one - and I won't be turning the start/stop off, even if I can.

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Old 01-29-2019, 12:23 AM
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Mandated by our government by EPA requirements.

You're complaining to the wrong people
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Old 01-29-2019, 12:35 AM
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Originally Posted by Tool Hoarder View Post

It saves fuel at the expense of your starter and engine wear, but the OEMs don't care about the latter because once out of warranty it's not their problem.
Not all the start / stop technologies use the starter.
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Old 01-29-2019, 01:23 AM
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Aside of this annoying start/stop feature, I think drivers are becoming "dumber" and loosing basic but yet essential driving reflexes:
If you can't stay in your lane
If you can't brake when you're supposed to
If you can't change lane when it's clear
if you can't back up without a camera
If you can't parallel park
if you can't take off from a stop on a hill (manual tranny)
Essentially if one can't drive, then ....
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Old 01-29-2019, 02:21 AM
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I detest it and wonít have it. I have wanted to get a new SUV and been thinking Caddy XT5 for a while but they donít even allow you to shut that damn thing off on those so I guess I am sticking with my older SRX which only has 38000 miles simply because of this. And the damn stupid electronic shift by wire non intuitive shifter in those cars. Yikes, what a mess. So although I have always bought GM, I am now looking for a new luxury SUV that doesnít have all this crap or I will stick with what I have as long as I can.
And a Corvette having this stuff? Deal breaker. Does anyone anywhere really care how much gas mileage your Vette gets? Really? I canít imagine.

Last edited by Frankie2blue; 01-29-2019 at 02:22 AM.
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Old 01-29-2019, 02:21 AM
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The Mclaren Senna has it, it certainly isn't only for "commuter cars".
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Old 01-29-2019, 03:23 AM
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Get a Range.
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Old 01-29-2019, 07:00 AM
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Originally Posted by Garret View Post
What engineer in their right mind thinks it's a good thing to turn the car off(pause) or what ever they call it at a stop light...Then when you push the gas the vehicle lurches forward.Our Acura has it and we hate it and again, have to turn it off everytime you get in the thing.
You found one!

First, the picture below uses EPA data. I made this a few years ago but you can see about ~15% is wasted idling. (Note Engineers use approximate numbers as we are not accountants and some of us old timers used a slide rule in college! ) I'm reminded of the vice chair of our local ASME section, which I chair, who complains about his and says he doesn't save much as he drives on the interstate and it's not needed. I remind him then he doesn't have to deal with it often! But most important he has an old, inefficient system.

Our BMW X5 SUV has such a seamless system I never turn it off! It doesn't wait for me to touch the gas, it starts when my foot is off the brake! In fact someone posted that their system starts when it sees the car in front move! I never hear the starter motor. Many companies are using a system that stops the motor right after a cylinder fires and the high pressure gas turns the crack when stsrting in addition to the motor. (BTW, that is just what the V8 to 4 mode in the C7 does- it keeps pressure in the cylinders that shut off!) Some argue the starter motor will fail! Their are starter motors that are much better then the simple ones in most cars. The `525 hp 502 cid engine in my Street Rod has a 5:1 geared started with a small motor. It turns that high compression 502 cid engine very easily! Yep "engineers" can select a starter motor that will not fail!

Another big waste is of the ~15% of the energy in gasoline that gets to the rear wheel about 1/3 is wasted turning back into heat braking. Our BMW X5 has a simple system that capturers some of that energy I hope as a minimum the C8 includes. It's also seamless. It only charges the battery when coasting or braking. Yep, it has a large AGM battery that can handle deep discharges! But at least some of that wasted braking energy is being captured.

(SIDE BAR: Perhaps We'll Get Even a More Efficient System)
I'm hopeful the C8 will get an even extended Stop/Start! F1 race cars use a Kinetic Energy Recovery System (KERS.) It weighs about 70 lbs including the reported 30 lb battery. The motor generator is connected directly to the power train. It provides 160 hp for a short time that can be used for passing. It charges the small battery when braking. F1 has improved their overall energy efficiency by over 50%. They no longer allow refueling. With a 1.6 liter ~800 hp engine they are beating track records set in the past by gas guzzling V12's!

HOW DOES THAT FIT A C8? We'll after Stop/Start a KERS type system could keep the gas engine needing to start until the car was at cruising speed. If you look at the instant mpg indicator in the C7, mpg is terrible when even modestly accelerating when leaving a stop light. (Newton's 1st Law of Motion!) So if just cruising, that small battery/motor combo can bring the car to speed before turning on the gas engine. Then that motor becomes a generator when braking to charge that small battery. When driving in "anger" that extra 160 hp would be fun! Yep I'll take a C8 with a 4.2 Liter, double overhead cam, twin turbo~500 hp engine with an extra ~150 hp light weight, short use KERS system!

THE OPTION IS WORSE! Some don't appear to understand what Mary Barra said! GM, to survive, is putting all technology into EV cars! Sure hope we can get a last effort to get more efficiency from internal combustion engines. Yep they will need to be smaller cid, double overhead cam, turbocharged engines to reduce some of the 60% of the energy going out the exhaust and heating water then air!

Last edited by JerryU; 01-29-2019 at 07:59 AM.
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