Please, Chevrolet....NO Start/Stop Technology on C8
01-31-2019, 11:28 AM
#121
I have seen them break that way, but those were all prototype vehicles. It sucks, but generally a key cycle gets them moving again, I've never seen one completely kill the system.
I do agree they generally fail in the not shutting off manner. I'm kind of the opposite of most here, I spend considerable time cursing at cars in which S/S has decided to not activate, because I need to test something with it active. There really are a considerable number of conditions that prevent it from cycling, cold weather and the associated low batteries being the ones I am dealing with recently.
I do agree they generally fail in the not shutting off manner. I'm kind of the opposite of most here, I spend considerable time cursing at cars in which S/S has decided to not activate, because I need to test something with it active. There really are a considerable number of conditions that prevent it from cycling, cold weather and the associated low batteries being the ones I am dealing with recently.
Last edited by Foosh; 01-31-2019 at 11:42 AM.
01-31-2019, 11:31 AM
#122
Melting Slicks
But more and more people are also adopting plug-in cars. The amount of electricity a household can save by using LED light bulbs is trivial, compared to what it takes to charge a car.
Air conditioning demands during unusually hot weather can already push the capacity of the grid, in some areas.
Air conditioning demands during unusually hot weather can already push the capacity of the grid, in some areas.
01-31-2019, 11:47 AM
#123
Team Owner
The problem is those coal fired plants are getting old. Some so old the investment to cut sulfur emissions etc is not justified.
Recently our ASME local section toured a Duke Power plant and saw the 6 huge gas turbine generators that are operating not just for peak shaving. Some are running all day. It is less capital cost and easier to add than a new steam power plant. That is where natural gas will find expanding use.
Even the folks in CA, Oregon and Washington will “tollerate” those before a new Nuke in their State!
They took the 3 oldest steam turbine units off line, as they were really inefficient, at the old plant and converted the two newest turbines to run on natural gas. One reason they converted the old plant to run on NG, was that the rails ran right through the city and the powerplant was the only facility using rails. The coal trains were creating havoc as the city had expanded into that area during the past 25-30 years.. It was in the boonies when it was built back in the 1950's. The city wanted the rails removed, so NG was the answer, even though it cost more than burning coal.
They run a bunch of 100+ hopper car coal trans through here, from WY, to keep that new plant running at 100% 24/7. 15 of them a month..
I have heard nothing about converting the new plant over to natural gas. I think that either they don't have a NG pipeline that can handle it or the cost is too much to run it on NG.
A pair of steel rails can handle one hell of a lot of coal trains into Springfield, from WY, with zero capital investment for expansion as would be required to build a new NG pipeline. They could build another coal powered 300MW plant and would then have to run a single coal train each day to feed both of them. Not that big a deal(other than spending another billion dollars for a another new plant).
Thing is, that if your local coal powered plant is getting old and needs replacement, it requires just as much capital investment to build a new 300 MW unit to burn NG as it does to burn coal. Maybe even less as most places have a pair of steel rails nearby that can be brought into service by the railroad, but not a huge NG pipeline nearby.
Last edited by JoesC5; 01-31-2019 at 12:12 PM.
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JerryU (01-31-2019)
01-31-2019, 11:58 AM
#124
Team Owner
Truth on that last part. Last year during the summer, I saw my voltmeters on my power filters indicating as low as 106 volts! We also lost an AC fan motor and I had to have all of my AC units reprogrammed because the power fluctuations caused them to not start when the voltage dropped below a certain threshold. Of course, I list 20 miles past no-where and am at the end of a long line and I don't see them changing their infrastructure anytime soon (although they did add new regulators so they could up the voltage).
He would hang up and I would continue using electricity as if he had not called. At that time, our monthly electric bill was running around $34,000-$35,000(and we got a preferred rate as that was part of the agreement for us to move to their town from Illinois). When the town was bidding for us building our new plant in their town, they said they could handle our electrical needs. But it turned out, they were stretched to the limit. The town has since built a 20 mile pipeline to get natural gas from the large pipeline, that they didn't want to spend the money on it back in 1976
Last edited by JoesC5; 01-31-2019 at 12:15 PM.
01-31-2019, 12:31 PM
#125
Team Owner
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St. Jude Donor '15
"In honor of jpee"
^^^
Interesting! Have been on "demand power" for 30 years after the wife went to a women's club meeting and the power company convinced them it would save money. We were saving ~$500/year (they provide a bill and show what we would have paid if not on the system.) But we don't wash cloths or dishes on Peak Hours (both have start timers that we set to operate at off-peak hours.)
But the off-peak rates that were ~60% of on-peak have gotten closer. The key is also the charge for the max 15 minute/month usage rate during peak hours. It can be 25% of our monthly bill! Unlike industry with a computer managing devices and shutting them off at programed peak loads I do it only by looking backwards each month when the bill comes to see when it occurred! I did meet a fellow from AZ some years ago that did install a monitoring system that tripped a breaker on devices, i.e. AC when it reached a preset level. The power company also offers devices to shut off AC when "they want." I don't do that as if off then when they allow both come on and if in on-peak time, that can be the peak 15 minutes for that month! However they could do that for car chargers as well. But if needing a quick charge on a hot day in SC they would surly shut it off!
Recently visited two power companies for tours with our local ASME section. Duke Power, next to their coal and Nuke plant, has 6 huge gas turbine generators that I thought were being used only for peak shaving. BUT they have become the least expensive capital investment method of adding capacity so some are operating full time. Not the most cost efficient power generating system.
We also visited the advertised "solar farm" at a local co-op power company. After the engineer conducting the tour was asked some tough questions by a group of section members from Myrtle Beach, where they installed solar power on most schools, he admitted it was much more a PR venture that cost effective! Folks installing them often don't understand the maintenance costs, IMO. Was remined of daughter when she was working at her old college (one of combined group of 5 in Claremont CA) where they installed a large gas turbine generator for emergency power. Can't charge those very high tuition rates and tell parents you're closing for lack of power! LA when they were having brownouts and power outages was paying them to operate their generator, which they thought was great. However they had not considered the inevitable maintenance costs!
Interesting! Have been on "demand power" for 30 years after the wife went to a women's club meeting and the power company convinced them it would save money. We were saving ~$500/year (they provide a bill and show what we would have paid if not on the system.) But we don't wash cloths or dishes on Peak Hours (both have start timers that we set to operate at off-peak hours.)
But the off-peak rates that were ~60% of on-peak have gotten closer. The key is also the charge for the max 15 minute/month usage rate during peak hours. It can be 25% of our monthly bill! Unlike industry with a computer managing devices and shutting them off at programed peak loads I do it only by looking backwards each month when the bill comes to see when it occurred! I did meet a fellow from AZ some years ago that did install a monitoring system that tripped a breaker on devices, i.e. AC when it reached a preset level. The power company also offers devices to shut off AC when "they want." I don't do that as if off then when they allow both come on and if in on-peak time, that can be the peak 15 minutes for that month! However they could do that for car chargers as well. But if needing a quick charge on a hot day in SC they would surly shut it off!
Recently visited two power companies for tours with our local ASME section. Duke Power, next to their coal and Nuke plant, has 6 huge gas turbine generators that I thought were being used only for peak shaving. BUT they have become the least expensive capital investment method of adding capacity so some are operating full time. Not the most cost efficient power generating system.
We also visited the advertised "solar farm" at a local co-op power company. After the engineer conducting the tour was asked some tough questions by a group of section members from Myrtle Beach, where they installed solar power on most schools, he admitted it was much more a PR venture that cost effective! Folks installing them often don't understand the maintenance costs, IMO. Was remined of daughter when she was working at her old college (one of combined group of 5 in Claremont CA) where they installed a large gas turbine generator for emergency power. Can't charge those very high tuition rates and tell parents you're closing for lack of power! LA when they were having brownouts and power outages was paying them to operate their generator, which they thought was great. However they had not considered the inevitable maintenance costs!
01-31-2019, 12:32 PM
#126
Melting Slicks
When the town was bidding for us building our new plant in their town, they said they could handle our electrical needs. But it turned out, they were stretched to the limit. The town has since built a 20 mile pipeline to get natural gas from the large pipeline, that they didn't want to spend the money on it back in 1976
01-31-2019, 01:44 PM
#127
Le Mans Master
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01-31-2019, 03:42 PM
#128
Drifting
Ah, but that is the leeching off everyone else doing the right thing. The old "my particular emissions aren't that much in the scheme of things, so why does it matter": because if everyone did it, we would (and once did) have an issue.
Policies in which some people get to get away with something based on almost everyone else complying, thereby making the few not problematic, are bad policies.
Policies in which some people get to get away with something based on almost everyone else complying, thereby making the few not problematic, are bad policies.
Thing is, most people don't enjoy driving. There's no risk of "if everyone did it" because most people don't find it worth the effort to own a sports car. Furthermore, the contribution of SUVs and pickups to CO2 emissions dwarfs that of all the two seater sports cars currently on the road, and I make a point not to drive my truck unless I'm using it to haul stuff.
I'd even argue that if we could take those who daily drive SUVs/trucks solely to get to and from work and switch them over to sports cars, then total CO2 emissions would go down.
01-31-2019, 03:53 PM
#129
Seamless doesn't mean something can't break. Any system can have a defect, but your report is the first time I've heard of a start/stop system malfunctioning in that way. The normal way they stop functioning properly is by no longer shutting the engine down, which would make many here very happy.
I suspect something else was going on not related to start/stop.
I suspect something else was going on not related to start/stop.
01-31-2019, 06:48 PM
#130
Just go buy a Tesla if you are so concerned about the environment that you think a few moments of a stopped engine on a V8 is going to save the planet. It isn't. You shouldn't be buying a car like this at all if this is your primary concern. Just buy a Tesla, plenty of performance with their sport models, and be done with it. Or buy a Taycan.
Maybe you are concerned about the environment and the deletion of fossil fuels and cannot afford a Tesla. The only car you can afford is a Chevrolet but you still would like it to be as EV friendly as possible. This system will meet your needs.
01-31-2019, 07:16 PM
#131
Melting Slicks
Other OEMs also have an outright air temp threshold above/below which it just wont activate.
01-31-2019, 09:12 PM
#132
Race Director
Ah, but that is the leeching off everyone else doing the right thing. The old "my particular emissions aren't that much in the scheme of things, so why does it matter": because if everyone did it, we would (and once did) have an issue.
Policies in which some people get to get away with something based on almost everyone else complying, thereby making the few not problematic, are bad policies.
Policies in which some people get to get away with something based on almost everyone else complying, thereby making the few not problematic, are bad policies.
Boy how the world changed.
02-01-2019, 07:26 AM
#133
E-Ray, 3LZ, ZER, LIFT
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Not exactly like that. Remember most new cars have an automated climate system, its no longer manually controlled in anything but the most basic of cars. Every OEM is different, but theres an algorithm that determins if passenger comfort is going to be diminished (believe it or not, OEMs DO put a lot of time into passenger comfort items), a sort of decision threshold that takes into account air temps, climate settings, etc. Realistically at most stops, shutting off the engine for a few seconds isn't going to appreciably change the climate system. There are time that it will prohibit activation: cold engine temps and cold air temps for example. The testing I was doing involving the system last week, I had to shut climate off completely just to get it to activate, because air temp was just too low to let it turn on.
Other OEMs also have an outright air temp threshold above/below which it just wont activate.
Other OEMs also have an outright air temp threshold above/below which it just wont activate.
Yep we have the AC on automatic in our 2018 BMW SUV all the time. When it's hot out the engine shuts down BUT the evaporator in the passenger compartment is significantly colder than the desired air temp. The fan stays on and continues to blow air through the colder evaporator so it continues to blow cool air through the vents. In the length of time stopping for a light the temp stays where it should. IF stopped longer and the temp cannot be kept at the desired temp the engine will come back on by itself.
No issue with heating as when they implement Stop/Start in a "quality system" they use and electric water pump more for the engine. Therefore the 200 degree water going through the heat exchanger in the passenger compartment is far hotter than needed to keep the interior warm.
Our BMW X5 SUV system is seamless. Car starts when your foot is off the brake before it's on the gas and can't hear a starter motor operate! In fact with the radio on don't even know the engine if off! If Germany can design a quality system- I'm sure the C8 will have one similar!
Last edited by JerryU; 02-01-2019 at 07:28 AM.
02-01-2019, 09:38 AM
#134
Melting Slicks
Yep, that is another good point. Cars today are becoming very quiet, it is often difficult to tell beyond the dash indication (although, maybe this point doesn't exactly apply to Corvettes). The modern options really are seamless.
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02-01-2019, 01:15 PM
#136
Melting Slicks
Do you want 500+ hp on base cars or do you not want S/S?
S/S exists for one reason: emissions and fuel economy numbers. If you make it permanently disableable, you can't run EPA tests with it, plain and simple. The only reason it exists is to make those numbers better, therefore it is pointless to allow a permanent shut off and lose that advantage. Would you prefer the emissions complying 180hp C3s, or do you like the power you get at the expense of S/S?
Retrogrouches who hate any new tech should have already picked the old car they are going to live the rest of their life with, this stuff isn't going away.
S/S exists for one reason: emissions and fuel economy numbers. If you make it permanently disableable, you can't run EPA tests with it, plain and simple. The only reason it exists is to make those numbers better, therefore it is pointless to allow a permanent shut off and lose that advantage. Would you prefer the emissions complying 180hp C3s, or do you like the power you get at the expense of S/S?
Retrogrouches who hate any new tech should have already picked the old car they are going to live the rest of their life with, this stuff isn't going away.
02-01-2019, 06:34 PM
#137
Melting Slicks
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St. Jude Donor '09-'11
I agree. My 18 Golf R will disengage start/stop when in sport mode or in race mode. Surely the C8 Corvette will be the same or similar. As mentioned before, I can completely control start/stop with the brake pedal when not in sport or race modes. Press easy on the pedal and the car keeps running when it comes to a stop, depress a bit more and the engine shuts off...oops, I didn't want that so I ease up a bit on the pedal, and while still stopped, the engine starts again. There's an off button too, but I rarely use it.
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ArmchairArchitect (02-04-2019)
02-01-2019, 08:13 PM
#138
my 19 z06 has one thing that never works or worked...the skip shift. No lights come on and never forces me into any gear. I have a 16 camaro ss and many camaros prior to.that so j am well aware of how CAGS works but it never worked on my car which was ordered from factory. I'm ok with this kind of defect.
02-04-2019, 07:49 AM
#139
That's likely because you never 1-2 shift between 16 and 19 mph, which is the only window in which CAGS ("skip-shift") attempts to intervene and force a 1-4 shift. On any shift before or after that window you'll never see it.
02-04-2019, 08:10 AM
#140
Le Mans Master
