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You might want to reconsider that statement. Not a day goes by that we don't see multiple rants on this forum from C4-6 holdouts who claim they wouldn't buy a C7 even if every pig on the planet took flight. Every change alienates some of the "faithful." There are still arguments about round tail-lights and pop-up headlights.
A Camaro redesign could easily get closer to the traditional FE Corvette, and certainly as close as the differences between each Corvette gen.
The key word there was "faithful", but yes, you're right, there is always something that some folks won't like. And yes, they could redesign the Camaro to simulate the FE Corvette, but I don't believe they will. The bread and butter for the Camaro are V6's and the turbo 4's, in terms of sales volume. The Camaro is primarily a daily commuter car for those that want something sporty and don't need 4 doors. The SS and the ZL1 make up a much smaller portion of Camaro sales. Many feel that they refreshed the designs for 2019 because many thought the 4 and 6 cyl cars looked too aggressive for what most people wanted for their purpose. Now what they did to the SS was just down right sad. I kind of believe that if not the Corvette, the FE "GT style" car will be a Cadillac. But these are just my thoughts, as there are compelling arguments for and against any of these scenarios.
I can make that same logical argument with folks who buy Euro sport cars pushing a half million dollars or better supposedly wanting to line up to buy a halo ME Corvette, a sports car line traditionally for the potbellied blue collar retirees (paraphrasing Jeremy Clarkson from a few years ago here, don't hold the exact phrase to me).
Exactly my point. Folks that buy a half million dollar car, for the most part, not all, are buying it for the nameplate, the prestige. In much the same emotion, folks that buy Corvette, for the most part, not all, will not lower to a Camaro. But, there may be some that buy Porsche in the 130K range, or Audi R8 buyers, that might cross over if the ME Corvette is great.
The speculation about FE, ME, dumb this down to keep it under $250k, Yada, Yada... is out of control.
We’re talking about the Corvette. The “next generation” Chevrolet Corvette from General Motors. It will be the next iteration of THE American sports car. A mass produced American icon. It will not be a hand built or even limited production super car and it will not be designed or priced to compete heads up in the same market niche as a Ferrari, Lamborghini or even the closer rival 911. It will however, be designed to continue to give the most bang for the buck in the sports car / GT market, and even out perform Euro cars that cost two or,three times more because they have a crest or a prancing pony on the nose of their bonnet.
The launch of each generation of the Corvette was an evolution that some Corvette enthusiast liked and some didn’t, but like each preceding new generation of the Corvette, GM will give us something new and exciting. Based on the leaks and the sightings of apparent 8th generation mules, it looks like GM is all in with the ME Corvette that Mr. Duntov dreamt of.
GM cannot profit from a high dollar, low volume car that competes heads in price up with super cars. “Most” super car buyers would never buy any car with a GM, Chevrolet, or even Corvette badge on them, regardless of potentila of the GM product, so while GM covets those buyers, they are not the target market.. And, there is no economic logic for GM to invest in pitting two separate platforms, FE and ME, of the Corvette against each other, especially in a market that will only support 30,000 or so units a year. Offering a future Cadillac two seater, ME or FE, will impact the Corvette numbers to some degree, as some buyers will prefer one over the other for any number of reasons.
So, in my humble speculation during this waiting game, I believe we’re going to see one new C8 Corvette in 2020. An ME car priced for the Chevrolet Corvette buyer, although probably a somewhat higher price than a comparably equipped 2019 C7. Pricing options ala cart like a Porsche would be nice because it would allow Corvette buyers to personalize their car and spend accordingly.
At this point, I don’t care if the C8 ME is powered by an LS, LT, twin cam, or even has electric motors on the front corners. I just want it to be super cool, with high quality build and materials, and able kick the f’n snot out of any car with a blue oval badge as well as a bunch of cars costing twice as much.
The fact that Skank thinks parking brakes are some kind of exotic dual rear caliper option completely invalidates any of his posts. Hey guys... the C8 is gonna be $100K and up because it's a ME and has exotic Lambo/Ferrari/McLaren dual rear calipers. Ground breaking stuff!
See I'm a little weird in that I kind of group the Grand sport with the base as for the most part, they're at that same price level for entry. You do up a base you're around 60 and the GS comes with most of the goodies you'd throw on the base. The Z06 and up is one bracket and the GS down is the other I'd say. I'd wager you're looking more toward that 70% shopping for a car below 75k or so. That leaves the same 30% but to the more expensive echelon.
We can sit here and BS numbers all day but sure, gm makes more money on a z06 than a gs. That's a fact. But the thing is the difference is 15-25k per unit but you're selling almost 20% percent less. So your scale is roughly the same. That's how I look at it anyway.
It is fascinating how one person can deduct what you have from basic numbers. You've also made assumptions that cannot be supported from the numbers shown, The raw facts of the matter is 62% of Corvette buyers do not buy the base model. Period! There are other deductions and perhaps this topic deserves further study. Watch the presentation at the Corvette Experience at Daytona and then come back. I'm willing to be proven incorrect.
The fact that Skank thinks parking brakes are some kind of exotic dual rear caliper option completely invalidates any of his posts. Hey guys... the C8 is gonna be $100K and up because it's a ME and has exotic Lambo/Ferrari/McLaren dual rear calipers. Ground breaking stuff!
Well he is not the only one to think that is a Dual Rear Brake system, I knew I read this somewhere. I believe it is a parking brake similar to some Wilwood systems, maybe this is where he got the information from. Ya know that Google is the end all be all. Lol
Originally Posted by gmauthority
Mid-Engine Corvette Brakes To Feature Dual Rear-Wheel Calipers (By lex Luft)
It appears that the upcoming mid-engine Corvette will feature extremely high-performance brakes, as the latest spy shots show a dual rear caliper brake design.
About Dual Caliper Brakes
The benefits of having two sets of calipers are fairly straight forward, and boil down to three primary advantages:
Double the pistons means greater strength to clamp down on the rotors.
Double the brake pads means twice the contact area of the pads with the rotors (known by engineers as the total swept surface area).
Twice the calipers and brakes means that the hardware has to work half as hard when stopping the car, thereby allowing them to cool off twice as fast and eliminating brake fade during instances of continuous hard braking, such as racing on a track or handling course.
No matter how you spin it, the end result is superior stopping power — and good brakes on a supercar, like the mid-engine Corvette is shaping up to be, is just as important (if not more important) as acceleration, handling and other commonly-measured attributes.
And in the case of the mid-engine Corvette, the weight distribution changes significantly when compared to prior Corvette iterations, placing more of the car’s weight toward the rear wheels. We imagine that this change, in turn, increases the importance of stopping the rear wheels.
But it’s not all marks in the positive column: more calipers and pads comes more weight and mass — the sworn enemies of performance. So it will be interesting to see how Corvette engineers may have been able to mitigate this potential downside.
Parking Brake Theory
One theory surrounding the dual rear caliper setup on the mid-engine Corvette is that the additional set of rear calipers will serve as the electric parking brake for the upcoming sports car.
Typical electric parking brakes lock a vehicle’s axle into place in some fashion, either by clamping the axle or inserting a pin that prevents it from moving. In the case of the mid-engine Corvette, a significant portion of the car’s mid-ship will be taken up by the powertrain. Though electric parking brakehardware is rather compact, a possibility does exist that the engine and transmission placement would limit the space available for a parking brake to lock the axle into place. So the circumstance may have led engineers to move the electric parking brake to the rear rotors via a dedicated set of calipers.
With that said, we do not believe that the function of the second set of braking hardware on the rear wheels is for electric parking brake, due to the calipers being way too big to be for the parking brake. However, a scenario in which the second set of calipers is used for additional stopping power while doing double-duty as parking brake clamps might be spot on.
Mid-Engine Corvette Rear Wheel and Brake with Dual Calipers - Spy Shots - May 2018
The dual caliper rear brake design is not all too common in the industry today, even among super cars, hyper cars or other high-performance exotics. However, double calipers are used on some high-performance motorcycles as well as on rear-engine dragsters — where they are prized for their ability to resist brake fade, especially after continuous runs.
But perhaps the most prominent use of the dual rear caliper design in the automotive world is the Porsche 956 — a 1980s-era prototype-style race car built for the the FIA World Sportscar Championship. In 1983, the 956 famously completed the 20.832 km (12.93 mi) circuit of the famed Nürburgring Nordschleife in 6:11.13 while qualifying for the 1000 km Sports Car race at the hands of Stefan Bellof. The performance set an all-time record, which the car and Bellof still hold to this day.
All that out of the way, at this point why even visit this thread? Clearly ya think Skank is full of it and dropping in to get a dig on him when not even responding to him doing the same is petty don't ya think?
Well then that writer is a bozo too. The front brakes do 80%+ of the braking. You don't do dual rear calipers for performance. It's a freaking parking brake so they can do away with the drum brake assembly in the rotor like the C5/6/7. Allows for a more simple rotor hat and no drum brake setup. The 2nd caliper type brake is less parts than the internal drum brake setup.
The only application you'll see actual dual rear brakes is on a drag car in some cases that don't have front brakes.
It is fascinating how one person can deduct what you have from basic numbers. You've also made assumptions that cannot be supported from the numbers shown, The raw facts of the matter is 62% of Corvette buyers do not buy the base model. Period! There are other deductions and perhaps this topic deserves further study. Watch the presentation at the Corvette Experience at Daytona and then come back. I'm willing to be proven incorrect.
No I agree with you. But that also doesnt mean that 62% are dropping 100k plus on one either. Using those stats from that video 38% are in base territory. 31% in GS territory. 22% in Z06 territory and the remaining 9 in ZR1 territory.
Now yes, you can option a 3lt gs up to 90k. Easily actually. But ~67% of the GS sold was 1-2 lt. So just ball parking a number, let's say 75k msrp. What's interesting is that the majority of the base is 1lt. All I'm trying to say is that, without trying too much math by the way, that the average vette gm is selling is probably under 90k. That's the market as dictated by the numbers. (Roughly)
I can't crunch the numbers now but I'm curious, would you agree that the average selling price across the range should be GMs targeted bracket plus or minus a percent? That's how I'm looking at. Let's say that overall the average C7 sold this year ended up averaging at 80k ish msrp with options. And we could say that has a standard deviation of 15. In other words, most vettes sold were purchased at a price of 65k-95k. Does that sound reasonable and thus mean that GM is catering to the mid upper end bracket very well? I'm curious more than anything because I think we're saying the exact same thing but just not understanding each other correctly.
No I agree with you. But that also doesnt mean that 62% are dropping 100k plus on one either. Using those stats from that video 38% are in base territory. 31% in GS territory. 22% in Z06 territory and the remaining 9 in ZR1 territory.
Now yes, you can option a 3lt gs up to 90k. Easily actually. But ~67% of the GS sold was 1-2 lt. So just ball parking a number, let's say 75k msrp. What's interesting is that the majority of the base is 1lt. All I'm trying to say is that, without trying too much math by the way, that the average vette gm is selling is probably under 90k. That's the market as dictated by the numbers. (Roughly)
I can't crunch the numbers now but I'm curious, would you agree that the average selling price across the range should be GMs targeted bracket plus or minus a percent? That's how I'm looking at. Let's say that overall the average C7 sold this year ended up averaging at 80k ish msrp with options. And we could say that has a standard deviation of 15. In other words, most vettes sold were purchased at a price of 65k-95k. Does that sound reasonable and thus mean that GM is catering to the mid upper end bracket very well? I'm curious more than anything because I think we're saying the exact same thing but just not understanding each other correctly.
I can't locate the article but volume wise the vast majority of C7s sold are 1LT Stingrays. That doesn't mean most of the profit comes from those cars... probably a sweet spot of volume/margine, but based on volume (which allows costs amortization) the standard $60Kish car is the seller.
Some of this stuff is simply amazing. The self proclaimed experts have really blown their wads on this one with guaranteed prices, parallel simultaneous production of FE and ME variants, exact predictions regarding the viability of a ME Corvette and on. You really couldn't script this stuff. Seriously good entertainment in this thread.
Well he is not the only one to think that is a Dual Rear Brake system, I knew I read this somewhere. I believe it is a parking brake similar to some Wilwood systems, maybe this is where he got the information from. Ya know that Google is the end all be all. Lol
PC
Ain't going to happen. Forget unsprung weight, extreme loads on front suspension, dive geometry, etc,. on a FE car or the ME car with downforce, what about the heat that is created? On a Vette that stops quicker than any production car converts nearly 2000hp of KE into heat. How do you dissipate that heat? What kind of materials will be required on all related components including tires. F1 c c brakes can't even do it. Also, the load transfer for ME cars is not as great as FE on the front and the unloading of the rear tires gives a load far less than the FE Vette front tires. Tire grip depends on loading. Even then, the Mu has to accommodate that level of grip.
Cars with dual calipers. Parking brake calipers on the rear disc are common place.
Ain't going to happen. Forget unsprung weight, extreme loads on front suspension, dive geometry, etc,. on a FE car or the ME car with downforce, what about the heat that is created? On a Vette that stops quicker than any production car converts nearly 2000hp of KE into heat. How do you dissipate that heat? What kind of materials will be required on all related components including tires. F1 c c brakes can't even do it. Also, the load transfer for ME cars is not as great as FE on the front and the unloading of the rear tires gives a load far less than the FE Vette front tires. Tire grip depends on loading. Even then, the Mu has to accommodate that level of grip.
Cars with dual calipers. Parking brake calipers on the rear disc are common place.
So we agree, I think! Lol What are you saying again?
Do I have to resend my PM to you? You know exactly what I told you unless you have selective memory. And I'll pretend I didn't read your nonsense above as I was very clear in what I told you what the engineer said at the Mold and Die company! Short of calling out the company that gave that info( which I won't do ), I know concisely what he did and didn't say as I was taking notes of our conversation while talking to him.
Please don't send it again. I didn't find it credible that "an engineer" at a minor supplier or even the supplier itself would have any idea what GM's new car development plans were. Suppliers aren't given such info and only receive the specs of what they're contracted to produce.
I didn't find it credible that anyone in a position of importance at that company would share GM client-privileged info with an outsider, who just happened to call on the phone. It sounded like you got connected with a junior guy who was trying to feel important, and presented his theory to you, which was about as reliable as any of the other crazy theories floating around here. It's also possible you got punked as Jeff said. Lastly, if we could get past those other credibility hurdles, the info is old, and plans change.
That kind of info is right up there with a 25 yr. old sales person at a small Chevy dealer in Smalltown, USA telling you what the C8 ME is going to cost. Just as on this forum, there's no shortage of Chevy dealer and GM supplier employees who'll sling all kind of BS about the new ME.
I doubt it will happen but would be kind of cool if GM could mimic what Ferrari is doing with offering both FE and ME options. The new 488 Pista (ME) and Portofino (California replacement FE) are beautiful. Dare to dream that GM would do the same sort of thing I guess
ha, ok.......you partying already today, it's just 10:50 am for me! Well it 5pm somewhere!
Notice F1 cars can lock their front tires? Modern cars have ABS that you can't disable. The level of grip of the tires determines the pressure to the calipers. This negates the need for dual calipers. I put a switch in to my 90 Vette behind the gear shift to be able to disable the ABS in a hurry incase of a spin. I could switch it back on without any problems. My 92 was different. A code comes on and you have to restart to reboot and that is how every Vette has been since.
I doubt it will happen but would be kind of cool if GM could mimic what Ferrari is doing with offering both FE and ME options. The new 488 Pista (ME) and Portofino (California replacement FE) are beautiful. Dare to dream that GM would do the same sort of thing I guess
Ok guys I just got off the phone with a few C8 parts suppliers so here's GM's plans:
1. All sports car production will move to BGA. Understand how revolutionary this is: cars were previously built on assembly lines according to their underlying platform. Barra has instituted a new paradigm to assign car production based upon a car's performance level. So all the fastest cars, from Chevy and Cadillac (sorry Buick, you're still for wheezy geezers) will be built at BGA using their innovative skillet system.
2. There's a FE Corvette and Camaro replacement called the Cormaro. It's a 2+2 but they made the back seats even smaller so FE Corvette buyer loyalty would apply. It even has round tail lights to ensure all the FE Corvette faithful will flock to it. Reuss came up with the idea and he's very proud of it.
3. The C8 will cost $380,000.
I'll call some more suppliers on my lunch break and let you guys know what I learn.
I doubt it will happen but would be kind of cool if GM could mimic what Ferrari is doing with offering both FE and ME options. The new 488 Pista (ME) and Portofino (California replacement FE) are beautiful. Dare to dream that GM would do the same sort of thing I guess
Chevrolet will be mimicking what Ferrari is doing by offering both ME and FE high performance cars with the ME Corvette and FE Camaro. 488 is to ME C8 as Ferrari is to Chevrolet.
02-01-2019, 12:14 AM
Well it 5pm somewhere!
