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What are the chances of a C8 FE and C8 ME revealing together?

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What are the chances of a C8 FE and C8 ME revealing together?

 
Old 01-30-2019, 07:59 PM
  #81  
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Originally Posted by punky View Post
This is absolutely spot on. The Camaro is the FE champion for GM going forward and that is whether the FE Corvette fist pounders like it or not. Anyone who has driven the latest ZL1 with the LT4 engine knows that this is a fine replacement for a FE Corvette.
I've been saying this for many months now, and from a marketing and manufacturing cost standpoint makes one hell of a lot more sense than 3 high performance sporty model lines in the Chevrolet portfolio.

Last edited by Foosh; 01-30-2019 at 08:03 PM.
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Old 01-30-2019, 08:00 PM
  #82  
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Originally Posted by Warp Factor View Post
Maybe, but the market in general has also moved strongly in the direction of trucks, SUV's and crossovers.
Eh, sports cars generally fall outside of normal buying trends. Few people are cross shopping a Corvette with a Suburban, the way they are an Impala with an Equinox.

Originally Posted by Shaka View Post
It would be very inexpensive to derive a FE Vette from the C8 and build them side by side.. Both cars can have a base model with manual option starting @ $62 gs. The ME will get the very high HP engines. A luxury Caddy version with far out body panels (Lectric) can also be in the mix.
It would actually be very expensive. You're effectively designing two new cars, at least one with an entirely new platform.

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Old 01-30-2019, 08:11 PM
  #83  
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Originally Posted by JoesC5 View Post
I agree with all your logic except for the introduction of RHD models. Both the UK and Japan allow importation of LHD vehicles and I doubt that a RHD version would increase sales in those two countries by much, as the Corvette is presently sold in the UK and in Japan.

That leaves only one country(Australia) that would be a possibility for a RHD version. I really doubt that there would be enough demand in Australia to warrant the expense of tooling up RHD versions of the Corvette. It sure hasn't in the past. I don't think India or Singapore are viable markets for a Corvette.
As an ex-Brit, I know I would not want to drive an LHD car there. When I worked in Europe (the LHD part) I took my company cars (two different times) to Britain, and it was plain miserable. Overtaking almost meant you needed a "spotter" in the right seat. That's why Ford did an RHD Mustang, because they wanted it to be successful. Corvettes in Britain are only handled through an authorized dealer, not GM as such (as are Camaro's). They are treated as a very specialist buy with little or no marketing, hence very low sales numbers - and they are well marked up price wise. There's a lot of money spent on expensive performance cars in Britain. If the Corvette remains LHD only, GM won't see much of it.

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Old 01-30-2019, 08:18 PM
  #84  
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Originally Posted by Randy Miller View Post
I don't get what you mean. The C7 ZR1 would be a much better car than any $65k base model ME car could hope to be, so choosing a lesser model instead of a C7 ZR1 would be trading down.
When one turns in a 140K ZR1 to trade into a 65K car. The more expensive car usually takes a larger hit on trade in value. Dealers typically do not want to pay out the higher difference so they usually will lowball the deal.

Last edited by skank; 01-30-2019 at 08:23 PM.
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Old 01-30-2019, 08:22 PM
  #85  
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Originally Posted by Foosh View Post
Oh no . . . now you've done it. OP is now going to have re-publish the dissertation he wrote based upon his analysis of Google Earth photographs of the BGA site before and after.
I have to hand it to ya Foosh. You are a real comedian.... I can drag that short dissertation on over just to keep you happy and content for your viewing pleasure!

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Old 01-30-2019, 11:28 PM
  #86  
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Interesting that in all this discussion no one referenced the leaked panel supplier's expansion document. According to the supplier, they expanded their plant because their customer (GM) wanted them to supply panels for two cars. The document mentions two new cars. One to be introduced in 2019 was presumed to be the ME car. Th C7 was to be co-produced with the new ME car through at least calendar 2020 while some interpret that the C7 remains in production through.2021. The document states a new car will be introduced in 2022 with panels using the previous C7 capacity. Some presume the 2022 car to be the refreshed C7, i.e. a new FE car.
There is no doubt that at one time GM intended to market an ME and the C7. There was/is no need for the supplier to expand there facility if the ME car is a direct replacement of the C7 as that would have only been a tooling change.
However, that document is at least 3 years old. Marketing plans change so I would not be shocked to find that GM has changed the Corvette plan.
For those who dismiss the 2 platform concept out of hand, be careful. At one time GM wanted both in production at the same time. We'll see.
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Old 01-31-2019, 12:08 AM
  #87  
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Originally Posted by roadbike56 View Post
Interesting that in all this discussion no one referenced the leaked panel supplier's expansion document. According to the supplier, they expanded their plant because their customer (GM) wanted them to supply panels for two cars. The document mentions two new cars. One to be introduced in 2019 was presumed to be the ME car. Th C7 was to be co-produced with the new ME car through at least calendar 2020 while some interpret that the C7 remains in production through.2021. The document states a new car will be introduced in 2022 with panels using the previous C7 capacity. Some presume the 2022 car to be the refreshed C7, i.e. a new FE car.
There is no doubt that at one time GM intended to market an ME and the C7. There was/is no need for the supplier to expand there facility if the ME car is a direct replacement of the C7 as that would have only been a tooling change.
However, that document is at least 3 years old. Marketing plans change so I would not be shocked to find that GM has changed the Corvette plan.
For those who dismiss the 2 platform concept out of hand, be careful. At one time GM wanted both in production at the same time. We'll see.
This is bascailly what I was lead to believ. my intel is 6 months old, but at that time, it was all but said that the FE C7 and an ME would be produced together for at least 2 years, likely more based on demand. If the Market is there, corvette will have an FE and ME each year for the foreseeable future. At the time, it was undecided as to if the FE would survive more than a couple of years.
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Old 01-31-2019, 12:12 AM
  #88  
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Originally Posted by TheSenator View Post
Sigh. We're not talking unit margin. I'm talking about total margin (profit, cash, etc.).

If I sold 10 apples for $1 last year, and I sold 7 apples for $1 this year.
I lost $3 compared to last year.
In your example, -7,000 less cars (from 2017) x $70,000 = -$440,000,000

"We sold 1/4 less product than last year, but our unit margin is okay. Everything's fine. Let's change nothing."
This isn't something successful companies say.
Corvette could be making GM more money (profit ) now per year at a lower volume (revenue). All the huge up front costs are usually allocated and written off over the first 3-5 years or # of units(my guess on their accounting) All the design, development, testing , machinery, factory setup, tooling, training and on and on are up front costs. Long since paid for.
Naturally declining sales volume is not a happy trend.
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Old 01-31-2019, 04:11 AM
  #89  
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Well said. Unit sales decline does mean revenue decline but to call it a "loss" is materially incorrect.
competition....corvette was happy with final sales of c6 @ 13k because although a "decline" still 2x the nearest competitor.
​​​​​​​now we are at 20K with the C7 so i surmise way above the loss threshold...
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Old 01-31-2019, 08:03 AM
  #90  
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Originally Posted by punky View Post
This is absolutely spot on. The Camaro is the FE champion for GM going forward and that is whether the FE Corvette fist pounders like it or not. Anyone who has driven the latest ZL1 with the LT4 engine knows that this is a fine replacement for a FE Corvette.
It is true that styling and performance of the Camaro is closer to the Corvette, trim for trim, as it has ever been. However, I feel the market demographic for the two models is not as close. While the Camaro is far from the old mullet wearing, solid rear axle dragster of two decades ago, to expect the Corvette faithful to (in their mind) settle for a "Camaro" might be a little unrealistic.

I remember the panel supplier expansion deal, and it could just as easily point to two Corvettes as it could point to a the Corvette and GM having them make lighter body panels for an EV as well. The point being that we, the general public, have no real information about any of this.

Personally, I believe the two Corvette scenario makes the most sense. Doing so will alienate none of the FE faithful, keep some ME cravers in the GM family, and attract some cross shoppers into the fold. Whether a current customer switches to the ME is irrelevant as they are still a GM customer. Even if the ME is significantly more expensive than the FE, as long as it is in reach of the current Z06/ZR1 customer it still works. But, if they do this, rolling out a new FE will have to at least follow in short order. Rolling both out at the same time would be a cool event though.
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Old 01-31-2019, 08:37 AM
  #91  
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Originally Posted by lt4obsesses View Post
Personally, I believe the two Corvette scenario makes the most sense. Doing so will alienate none of the FE faithful, keep some ME cravers in the GM family, and attract some cross shoppers into the fold. Whether a current customer switches to the ME is irrelevant as they are still a GM customer. Even if the ME is significantly more expensive than the FE, as long as it is in reach of the current Z06/ZR1 customer it still works. But, if they do this, rolling out a new FE will have to at least follow in short order. Rolling both out at the same time would be a cool event though.
You might want to reconsider that statement. Not a day goes by that we don't see multiple rants on this forum from C4-6 holdouts who claim they wouldn't buy a C7 even if every pig on the planet took flight. Every change alienates some of the "faithful." There are still arguments about round tail-lights and pop-up headlights.

A Camaro redesign could easily get closer to the traditional FE Corvette, and certainly as close as the differences between each Corvette gen.

Last edited by Foosh; 01-31-2019 at 08:47 AM.
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Old 01-31-2019, 08:57 AM
  #92  
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the ''NEW'' addition is what 2-4 times larger then the old plant [4 storys tall ,with 2 basements]

GM didn't build this to paint 1 car,,there is a 2 -3 car/suv/truck plan for it

a lot of people that want a corvette don't want a mid-eng car,so why drop 1/3-1/2 of your customer base?

they will just freshen-up the c7,,and build the c8 ME in the new building

''ALSO'' could a ne Camaro be coming?,and built at that plant?

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Old 01-31-2019, 08:58 AM
  #93  
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2020:
Collector Edition C7 'send-off' cars (ending March 31, 2020; C7 ZR1 discontinued)

2021:
C8 Introduced in January; C7R race team 'goes through the motions' until C8R debuts at LeMans
C8 On-Sale April 1, 2020 as a 2021 MY ...(for first fools who pay $20K+ over MSRP)
C8 appears as Indy 500 Pace Car
C8R first races at 24 du LeMans
'Face-lifted' C7 also on-sale August 15, 2020 as a 2021 MY (no levels above GS sold - no Z06/ZR1 in C7 form - C7 becomes the 'entry-level Corvette')


Mic drop...
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Old 01-31-2019, 09:07 AM
  #94  
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Are these NEW codes being tossed around NOW or the codes that surfaced YEARS ago?
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Old 01-31-2019, 09:19 AM
  #95  
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Originally Posted by wilfie View Post
Corvette could be making GM more money (profit ) now per year at a lower volume (revenue). All the huge up front costs are usually allocated and written off over the first 3-5 years or # of units(my guess on their accounting) All the design, development, testing , machinery, factory setup, tooling, training and on and on are up front costs. Long since paid for.
Naturally declining sales volume is not a happy trend.
I would agree with all of this. Although I don't think a 25% volume drop covers that. Only GM knows that.

Originally Posted by Telepierre View Post
Well said. Unit sales decline does mean revenue decline but to call it a "loss" is materially incorrect
c.ompetition....corvette was happy with final sales of c6 @ 13k because although a "decline" still 2x the nearest competitor.
now we are at 20K with the C7 so i surmise way above the loss threshold...
I think what you mean to say is their unit net margin after depreciation/allocated costs is not causing each unit to sell at a loss.
I agree absolutely, and that was never my argument. Huge rapid volume declines being bad for business, is.

Also how do you know GM was "happy" at that volume?
Under the theory that sales have vanished, but allocation costs have been fully amortized, so unit margin is fantastic:
Why introduce the C7 at all?

GM thrives on being a volume manufacturer. Rapidly declining sales volume does not bring in the same amount of TFCF.
Search your feelings, you know it to be true.

In relation to OP, if GM's strategy is for the ME to be high price/low volume, expect a lower price/high volume car alongside.
Whether it will be a refreshed C7, C8 FE, is anyone's guess.

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Old 01-31-2019, 09:28 AM
  #96  
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Originally Posted by Foosh View Post
You might want to reconsider that statement. Not a day goes by that we don't see multiple rants on this forum from C4-6 holdouts who claim they wouldn't buy a C7 even if every pig on the planet took flight. Every change alienates some of the "faithful." There are still arguments about round tail-lights and pop-up headlights.

A Camaro redesign could easily get closer to the traditional FE Corvette, and certainly as close as the differences between each Corvette gen.
This is definitely the other possibility. Especially if you put faith in the LT5 Camaro rumors.
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Old 01-31-2019, 09:45 AM
  #97  
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Simply amazing that some Corvette enthusiasts actually expect that a C7 and C8 will be produced and marketed at the same time. That is NOT going to happen. This reminds me of the guys who screamed bloody murder for a 4 barrel carburetor be reinstated back in the day. How did that one work out for the Neanderthals. The same mentality compels todays knuckle draggers to believe that GM will continue to build them FE Corvettes while the overwhelming majority of the automotive community embraces the on deck ME C8.
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Old 01-31-2019, 09:48 AM
  #98  
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Originally Posted by roadbike56 View Post
Interesting that in all this discussion no one referenced the leaked panel supplier's expansion document. According to the supplier, they expanded their plant because their customer (GM) wanted them to supply panels for two cars. The document mentions two new cars. One to be introduced in 2019 was presumed to be the ME car. Th C7 was to be co-produced with the new ME car through at least calendar 2020 while some interpret that the C7 remains in production through.2021. The document states a new car will be introduced in 2022 with panels using the previous C7 capacity. Some presume the 2022 car to be the refreshed C7, i.e. a new FE car.
There is no doubt that at one time GM intended to market an ME and the C7. There was/is no need for the supplier to expand there facility if the ME car is a direct replacement of the C7 as that would have only been a tooling change.
However, that document is at least 3 years old. Marketing plans change so I would not be shocked to find that GM has changed the Corvette plan.
For those who dismiss the 2 platform concept out of hand, be careful. At one time GM wanted both in production at the same time. We'll see.
This is old data.... and supply contracts extend past production for replacement parts stock. Have to have C7 parts available to fix banged up ones. There are CAD "leaks" of a new FE Caddy car based on the Alpha platform.

Originally Posted by AZ Car Guy View Post
This is bascailly what I was lead to believ. my intel is 6 months old, but at that time, it was all but said that the FE C7 and an ME would be produced together for at least 2 years, likely more based on demand. If the Market is there, corvette will have an FE and ME each year for the foreseeable future. At the time, it was undecided as to if the FE would survive more than a couple of years.


Then why did GM just release a C7 "Final Edition" in Europe and do their silly sticker/badge "Driver Editions" for the domestic market? There is no 2020 C7. The 2019 is a super long run form 01/2018 through 03/2019 or 04/2019. The question at hand is what will GM do now that the C8 has been delayed slightly? The car was supposed to be introduced in January. The Corvette plant advertised tours resuming in January 2019 and then changed all that and pushed back to "indefinite closure". GM hasn't had a formal acknowledge delay, but some of the support "industries" sure have.

They dealt with this with the C3/C4 change over. The C4 was supposed to be a 1983, but it got pushed back to 1984 and there was technically no 1983. If there are enough issues with the C8 I could see them wrapping up the C7 this summer and the C8 coming out when it's ready as a '21.
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Old 01-31-2019, 09:53 AM
  #99  
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Originally Posted by lt4obsesses View Post
It is true that styling and performance of the Camaro is closer to the Corvette, trim for trim, as it has ever been. However, I feel the market demographic for the two models is not as close. While the Camaro is far from the old mullet wearing, solid rear axle dragster of two decades ago, to expect the Corvette faithful to (in their mind) settle for a "Camaro" might be a little unrealistic.
I can make that same logical argument with folks who buy Euro sport cars pushing a half million dollars or better supposedly wanting to line up to buy a halo ME Corvette, a sports car line traditionally for the potbellied blue collar retirees (paraphrasing Jeremy Clarkson from a few years ago here, don't hold the exact phrase to me).
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Old 01-31-2019, 10:08 AM
  #100  
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Not sure if this has been mentioned by others already but is there a possibility that the next gen Camaro could be built at BGA alongside the ME? People have mentioned reading about building two different cars there. Conjecture was that it might be a Cadillac but I was thinking that they could build the next gen Camaro using the current C7 platform (thus extending its life) and build the ME alongside it. I recall reading something about them building FE and ME cars on the same line as a test (unless that was just rumor). Might make sense if GM is consolidating to save costs to put both of these high performance cars under the same roof. Especially if they were to use the C7 platform as the basis for a new Camaro to extend more cost savings and leverage their existing expertise with the platform.
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