Foosh

I'm pretty sure you can purchase an LT1 for significantly less than the cost of the engine in the 4C or Boxster/Cayman. HP/TQ and engine cost are not necessarily highly correlated. Volume production (also used in Camaros, Cadillacs, and trucks) also brings the cost of a high performance engine way down, and many of the lesser displacement engines you cite are produced in much smaller numbers.

JimmyB, we were posting at the same time. Obviously, we're on the same page.

Azferrari

Foosh

Sorry Junior, fortunately you're wrong. Welcome to the Corvette Forum.

vndkshn

How does anyone at this point know the ME will be a "clearly inferior car" to the C7 ZR1?
It's also 300hp and per Porsche numbers over a second slower 0-60 than a Z51 Stingray. Kinda in a different class.
I think to make it completely accurate, you should change "C8" to ME. Mainly because at this point nobody KNOWS that the ME car running around is called (or considered by Chevy) to be the "C8". They could have a different designation entirely for it.

All are great drives no doubt (and other than the Boxster, yes, I have driven them all, and in anger on the track), but none keep up with a Corvette in any performance category.

vndkshn

Please quote ME where I called it a "hairdressers car".... I'll wait.

RapidC84B

vndkshn

Yeah, but you also can't just drop a LT1 in a 4C or Caymen and everything work and work right and be as fast. Adding the power means other things change too.

Foosh

No one said they were in the same class. The Boxster/Cayman was used as an example when someone foolishly said you couldn't produce a mid-engine car and sell it for $65K. Engine power is irrelevant to cost in this case since GM has a boat load of high power, high volume production engines. Those engines far undercut the cost of other ME and RE cars in this discussion.

Oh for heavens sake, what does that have to do with the C8 ME? They dropped it in a $55K C7, and there's nothing that much more inherently expensive about building an ME that volume production won't take care of.

vndkshn

Actually, I'd say it clearly shows the evolution of the Corvette emblem, but would not automatically call it the C8 emblem.
'
I'm just saying, if you are trying to make a bet with skank on specifics, make it as specific as possible and leave zero wiggle room for either of you.

jimmyb

An impressive read it is....
Is any of it FACT or just wishful thinking/opinion/best guess/wild *** guess?

vndkshn

Just as nobody said you can't make a ME car for $65k either. I think where the extreme challenge comes in is making a 500+hp ME car with DCT (to handle that power) and active suspension and brakes to slow it, and all of the other rumored tech in the ME, all for $65k. If anyone can do it, GM can, but I think many (myself included) are concerned at what corners will have to be cut to make that number.

The HP (and resulting speed) does factor in here. A car with that kind of power will put loads on the chassis, suspension, brakes, etc that a 300hp one won't. Engineering that difference isn't free.

Foosh

Yes, Skank and several others did, which is what produced the Boxster/Cayman response. Read the entire thread.

Moreover, I disagree with your other conclusions above. All the fantastical tech being predicted here isn't going to appear on the base model or will be offered as expensive option packages, or only in high-end models, just as on the C7. DCTs and 500HP engines aren't adding much if anything to the cost over the C7, again when procured in the volume that will be produced.

And once again, if GM can put nearly 500HP in a $55K C7, they can most certainly do it in a $65-75K ME.

jimmyb

Sorry, I can't keep up with which of the "C8 can't be less than $90K" crowd says what. The point is that $65K ME sports cars ARE being built and to suggest that GM, with their economies of scale (compared to Porsche/Alfa Romeo) CAN'T do it is preposterous.

And if you're going to use a base Cayman, then use a base Stingray (not Z51)

Foosh

. . . don't forget ignorant and naive.

And you are also correct to point out that the Z51 version of the C7 with MSRC is a $70K+ MSRP car with a lot of expensive equipment not on the $55K base car.

Also folks keep talking about how expensive things like DCT are, yet for $58K you can get a Boxster/Cayman with Porsche's version of DCT (PDK).

KnightDriveTV

I feel strongly there is a big point that people often miss, while they focus on the ME vs FE debate. The relevant example is, look at the city of Las Vegas. Hardest hit by the recession, because all of their "chips were in one basket"...meaning, economy declines, gambling and tourism tanks. Vegas took it big time...GM knows something about that experience. So, Las Vegas has pushed hard to shore themselves up, in the event of future decline...sports teams, food, museums, activities, etc.

So, in the ME case, GM would consciously be putting the brand of Corvette at very high risk in what, many can argue is a rising bubble...the longer there is rise, the more guaranteed a retraction will occur. The retraction occurs, and you've taken a very profitable 60k-68k OUT THE DOOR Stingray out of play...the current bread and butter of the entire lineup. The affordable base car is what makes Corvette work.

Let's focus on this fact...the current BASE MSRP of a Stingray is 55,900.00, and you know well, that the average Stingray sold is an easy 10k on top of that...just a mid level interior, etc. So, the CURRENT car is basically starting at 65k right now. ME adds in DCT trans, what appears to be yet another interior upgrade (think C6 to C7 level...which added weight and cost), along with the associated increased costs Tadge clearly outlined, which is approx 5k more to produce, all things being equal. My point is, a 10k immediate cost increase would be MINIMUM, making the real avg ME Corvette out the door 75k, and you let go of a bit of legacy with it, in search of new buyers.

You do this on the heels of the fact, the full C7, initial approved investment (which I recall was 250 million) is on it's 6th yr of use, when we see cars like Challenger (selling Demons) on a chassis designed back when Diamler owned Chrysler, and they're crushing it with those cars still. There is NO feasible need to dispose of the C7 investment, because it'll keep selling, for sure. Throw a body update, new interior and a new engine in there, and you'll get 6 more years out of that investment easily...why throw it in a trash can? Especially when you're going to build the C8 ME right next to C7 FE's?

In summary, going higher priced ME only makes the car potentially riskier for the brand, were the economy to retract, as Corvette being an affordable toy is also one of the most profitable cars GM sells (fact), moving the price up only moves it out of a sector where really, it has no competition...for 60k bucks. End of year GS's with 1LT were 52k on one site...there's no car on the planet that can compare for that money. I don't see a car that touches it in all around value, shy of maybe an equipped ZL1, due to back seats...but you're talking about a 28k car with bolt ons...a Corvette still has that luster that Camaro never will have, nor Challenger, etc. I'm not saying GM can't do it, but disposing of the legacy of the platform is very high risk, moving the price up in one big shot is high risk...and you can never go back either. Porsche has built it's brand on keeping the core identity of the car visible and intact. 911 and Cayman, should be Corvette ME and FE, but in cost reversal.

Randy Miller

We are talking about comparing the C7 ZR1 to a hypothetical $65k base model. No one in their right mind thinks that GM could produce a profitable car at $65k that would out perform the C7 ZR1.

Darion

I agree, no way a base car out performs a C7 ZR1. GM can keep the active suspension off the base car too, dont want it.

PC

jimmyb

You can't compare 2019 C7 SELLING prices with a 2020 ALL NEW platform. 2014 C7's didn't sell for anywhere close to the prices you're quoting. I would bet the vast MAJORITY of 2014 C7's sold at MSRP (or above), as did 2015 Z06's, and as 2019 ZR1's have.
Also, there is NO current information that states the C7 IS going to be built with the ME. This thread's premise (2 production codes) is THREE years old.

KnightDriveTV

So, you're implying the vast majority of 2014 C7's sold for 55k? I definitely disagree. 2014 put immediate Z51 on constraint, so ppl were checking that box, along with 2LT minimum, with destination and fees, ppl were borrowing 65k easy, on avg. That's the point...yeah, buying AT MSRP on the sticker, sure but the point is...avg buyers who buy the core, they weren't buying Z06's and ZR1's...they want an affordable (for their demo) sports car that's comfortable and has a bit of image. You suddenly pop that avg value up 10k bucks, that's a risk.

Also, you're fixated on ahead, without considering the fact that the C7 chassis is a damn good base you're implying they throw in the trash bin after 6 or 7yrs...why would they dispose of all that good R&D when the investment is now recouped essentially? I think that'd be foolish when you can toss a new body on it, make some tweaks, do a new interior and call it 7 more yrs of fun and profit along side.

C7pimp

For a well-optioned Z06 version.

If the base ME comes in at near 100K, then their sales volume will drop by 70% or more and lose out on almost the entire market of Corvette buyers and GM will be calling the gravedigger to put in a spot right next to Dodge Viper. Sounds like a win-win, right?