What are the chances of a C8 FE and C8 ME revealing together?
01-31-2019, 05:54 PM
#221
No one said they were in the same class. The Boxster/Cayman was used as an example when someone foolishly said you couldn't produce a mid-engine car and sell it for $65K. Engine power is irrelevant to cost in this case since GM has a boat load of high power, high volume production engines. Those engines far undercut the cost of other ME and RE cars in this discussion.
Oh for heavens sake, what does that have to do with the C8 ME? They dropped it in a $55K C7, and there's nothing that much more inherently expensive about building an ME that volume production won't take care of.
Oh for heavens sake, what does that have to do with the C8 ME? They dropped it in a $55K C7, and there's nothing that much more inherently expensive about building an ME that volume production won't take care of.
01-31-2019, 05:54 PM
#222
01-31-2019, 05:54 PM
#223
Drifting
Pimp, the Cayman was no more then Porsche's effort to get prices down to where a hairdresser or secretary could afford one of their cars. They cut all sorts of corners to build these things to get into that price range. Zora Duntov is rolling over in his grave listening to you compare the Cayman to the pending ME.
Probably the biggest cost saver for GM is that the 'Vette's engine and tranny development, and parts, are shared with the Camaro, some Cadillac models, and trucks. Even the Tremec DCT development costs are shared with Ford, and GM will probably also use the DCT in the gen7 Camaro and maybe a few Cadillac V models. There's also all the little hinges, latches, safety equipment, and switchgear that Jeuchter's team can pull out of GM's parts bins, no R&D necessary.
If GM had any sense they would drop the LT1 in an SUV to take a piece of the market from Porsche's Macan and Cayenne, and in addition they could do a proper LT1 SS to take a shot at the Panamera. They'll need to make Corvette a brand of its own, though, because Chevy doesn't have the necessary mystique to go against Porsche. And design has to be up to Corvette standards, not Chevy standards, lol. The last SS was a great car but it looked like any other cheap Chevy.
Of course, the Porsche is more reliable, so GM also has the advantage of offsetting their costs with more parts sales.
Last edited by Zaro Tundov; 01-31-2019 at 06:02 PM.
01-31-2019, 05:55 PM
#224
01-31-2019, 05:58 PM
#225
Just as nobody said you can't make a ME car for $65k either. I think where the extreme challenge comes in is making a 500+hp ME car with DCT (to handle that power) and active suspension and brakes to slow it, and all of the other rumored tech in the ME, all for $65k. If anyone can do it, GM can, but I think many (myself included) are concerned at what corners will have to be cut to make that number.
The HP (and resulting speed) does factor in here. A car with that kind of power will put loads on the chassis, suspension, brakes, etc that a 300hp one won't. Engineering that difference isn't free.
The HP (and resulting speed) does factor in here. A car with that kind of power will put loads on the chassis, suspension, brakes, etc that a 300hp one won't. Engineering that difference isn't free.
01-31-2019, 06:18 PM
#226
For a well-optioned Z06 version.
If the base ME comes in at near 100K, then their sales volume will drop by 70% or more and lose out on almost the entire market of Corvette buyers and GM will be calling the gravedigger to put in a spot right next to Dodge Viper. Sounds like a win-win, right?
If the base ME comes in at near 100K, then their sales volume will drop by 70% or more and lose out on almost the entire market of Corvette buyers and GM will be calling the gravedigger to put in a spot right next to Dodge Viper. Sounds like a win-win, right?
No one wants to see the ME car be a cheap car for the sake of keeping the price down. I’d rather see the ME car be done right.....looks, handling, power, accessories, etc.
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01-31-2019, 06:31 PM
#227
You are correct! And that’s why the C7 with some kind of refresh will continue. The ME car may or may not be called a “Corvette”, but it will be in a different marketing category.
No one wants to see the ME car be a cheap car for the sake of keeping the price down. I’d rather see the ME car be done right.....looks, handling, power, accessories, etc.
The C7 was "done right". The C8 will be also be "done right", except it will be Mid-Engine.
Corvette has always espoused incredible performance at an unbeatable price. It will continue in that same stride.
I'm perfectly fine if GM wants to build a $250K HyperCar version. that would be sweet.
They just can't ignore heir bread and butter in doing so (and they won't).
Last edited by C7pimp; 01-31-2019 at 06:31 PM.
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jefnvk (01-31-2019)
01-31-2019, 06:36 PM
#228
Race Director
Hmmm, well I live in the US and not many hairdressers here can afford a Cayman, but anyways, Porsche has higher costs due to their lower volume production, though in the last few years that's been changing.
Probably the biggest cost saver for GM is that the 'Vette's engine and tranny development, and parts, are shared with the Camaro, some Cadillac models, and trucks. Even the Tremec DCT development costs are shared with Ford, and GM will probably also use the DCT in the gen7 Camaro and maybe a few Cadillac V models. There's also all the little hinges, latches, safety equipment, and switchgear that Jeuchter's team can pull out of GM's parts bins, no R&D necessary.
If GM had any sense they would drop the LT1 in an SUV to take a piece of the market from Porsche's Macan and Cayenne, and in addition they could do a proper LT1 SS to take a shot at the Panamera. They'll need to make Corvette a brand of its own, though, because Chevy doesn't have the necessary mystique to go against Porsche. And design has to be up to Corvette standards, not Chevy standards, lol. The last SS was a great car but it looked like any other cheap Chevy.
Of course, the Porsche is more reliable, so GM also has the advantage of offsetting their costs with more parts sales.
Probably the biggest cost saver for GM is that the 'Vette's engine and tranny development, and parts, are shared with the Camaro, some Cadillac models, and trucks. Even the Tremec DCT development costs are shared with Ford, and GM will probably also use the DCT in the gen7 Camaro and maybe a few Cadillac V models. There's also all the little hinges, latches, safety equipment, and switchgear that Jeuchter's team can pull out of GM's parts bins, no R&D necessary.
If GM had any sense they would drop the LT1 in an SUV to take a piece of the market from Porsche's Macan and Cayenne, and in addition they could do a proper LT1 SS to take a shot at the Panamera. They'll need to make Corvette a brand of its own, though, because Chevy doesn't have the necessary mystique to go against Porsche. And design has to be up to Corvette standards, not Chevy standards, lol. The last SS was a great car but it looked like any other cheap Chevy.
Of course, the Porsche is more reliable, so GM also has the advantage of offsetting their costs with more parts sales.
And you are right, the car was pretty bland, styling wise, especially in colors like silver or black. The sad thing is the SS wasn't really generic Chevrolet styling as it was just generic. Car guys notice the Brembos and the wheels/tires...normal folks, not so much.. That plus ZERO effort by GM to market the car, and that's why they sold 12,000 of them in 4 years. I have folks ask all the time what it is and I say: "A Chevrolet SS" which is always followed by: "An SS what?"
Last edited by jimmyb; 01-31-2019 at 07:07 PM.
01-31-2019, 06:48 PM
#229
Pro
And that’s why the C7 with some kind of refresh will continue. The ME car may or may not be called a “Corvette”, but it will be in a different marketing category.
No one wants to see the ME car be a cheap car for the sake of keeping the price down. I’d rather see the ME car be done right.....looks, handling, power, accessories, etc.
https://www.corvetteforum.com/forums...-corvette.html
i cannot agree more with people that say we don't want GM to dumb this car down just to reach a price point that very few people buy at anyway. I agree with Kitt when he suggests that adding a minimum of $10k onto the base price is the real starting point of most purchases. It's probably even higher then that. Fussing about what may be a higher price tag then one is accustomed to seeing is a futile effort when most of us will be higher then the base price anyway!
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01-31-2019, 07:15 PM
#230
Race Director
So, you're implying the vast majority of 2014 C7's sold for 55k? I definitely disagree. 2014 put immediate Z51 on constraint, so ppl were checking that box, along with 2LT minimum, with destination and fees, ppl were borrowing 65k easy, on avg. That's the point...yeah, buying AT MSRP on the sticker, sure but the point is...avg buyers who buy the core, they weren't buying Z06's and ZR1's...they want an affordable (for their demo) sports car that's comfortable and has a bit of image. You suddenly pop that avg value up 10k bucks, that's a risk.
Also, you're fixated on ahead, without considering the fact that the C7 chassis is a damn good base you're implying they throw in the trash bin after 6 or 7yrs...why would they dispose of all that good R&D when the investment is now recouped essentially? I think that'd be foolish when you can toss a new body on it, make some tweaks, do a new interior and call it 7 more yrs of fun and profit along side.
Also, you're fixated on ahead, without considering the fact that the C7 chassis is a damn good base you're implying they throw in the trash bin after 6 or 7yrs...why would they dispose of all that good R&D when the investment is now recouped essentially? I think that'd be foolish when you can toss a new body on it, make some tweaks, do a new interior and call it 7 more yrs of fun and profit along side.
I posted long ago that I think it is possible that an FE Corvette may be around. I DON'T think it will start with the ME. Do the ME a year or so and then release a front engine car that is more "GT" in scope and purpose (ala Ferrari FE V12's). Certainly an updated C7 chassis would be fine for that. They could rework the rear subframe so the A10 fits, revised LT1, more sound deadening, dolled-up interior, etc....
Last edited by jimmyb; 01-31-2019 at 07:38 PM.
01-31-2019, 07:40 PM
#231
Folks, several of us have been chanting this for months now: it won't be a Mid Engine Corvette (Zora) without a bunch of the things listed on the List of Components thread included on it. Read that and then rejoice because, frankly, when this car is released, the price may be higher but it will be a much better car.
https://www.corvetteforum.com/forums...-corvette.html
i cannot agree more with people that say we don't want GM to dumb this car down just to reach a price point that very few people buy at anyway. I agree with Kitt when he suggests that adding a minimum of $10k onto the base price is the real starting point of most purchases. It's probably even higher then that. Fussing about what may be a higher price tag then one is accustomed to seeing is a futile effort when most of us will be higher then the base price anyway!
https://www.corvetteforum.com/forums...-corvette.html
i cannot agree more with people that say we don't want GM to dumb this car down just to reach a price point that very few people buy at anyway. I agree with Kitt when he suggests that adding a minimum of $10k onto the base price is the real starting point of most purchases. It's probably even higher then that. Fussing about what may be a higher price tag then one is accustomed to seeing is a futile effort when most of us will be higher then the base price anyway!
You don't seem to understand the value proposition and magic that makes Corvette what it is.
01-31-2019, 09:38 PM
#232
Burning Brakes
I have already heard reports of the top of the line ZORA reaching 250k according to one that is close to the C8. I've always thought that 200k would be the top limit but apparently not. If this is accurate then my ME + FE duo concept makes even more sense. Remember, they didn't triple the square footage of the Bowling Green plant to still build only one configuration. The massive plant expansion explains everything that some of you are not focusing on. They spent nearly a billion dollars to upsize the plant. Some of you have to wake up to that reality.
01-31-2019, 09:40 PM
#233
Pro
01-31-2019, 10:07 PM
#234
Melting Slicks
Thread Starter
Oh, I believe you had some sort of conversation with someone who claimed to know something. I just don't believe your source had any idea what they were talking about or you misheard something. Suppliers are given minimal information on forthcoming products, and a panel manufacturer wouldn't know exactly what they were making panel molds for.
However, my main problem is that it completely strains credulity that you'd just call someone up out of the blue, and they'd share the secrets you claim. That person would have to be either a poser or a complete idiot.
However, my main problem is that it completely strains credulity that you'd just call someone up out of the blue, and they'd share the secrets you claim. That person would have to be either a poser or a complete idiot.
01-31-2019, 10:17 PM
#235
Melting Slicks
I note you excluded the combination of "500+hp, DCT, and active suspension", so not sure your point.
I just looked at Alfa's site and they do not list active suspension for the 4C (and no references to it in any review I could find). It has less than half the 500+ hp I mentioned.
Porsche does offer DCT and active suspension, but again, missed the 500+hp.
So I'm not sure your argument.
I'm not saying the ME will cost $100k plus, but I am also saying you can't use cars that are not the same as evidence of that just because they are mid or rear engine. Hell, might as well through in the Ariel Atom at around $50k then.
I just looked at Alfa's site and they do not list active suspension for the 4C (and no references to it in any review I could find). It has less than half the 500+ hp I mentioned.
Porsche does offer DCT and active suspension, but again, missed the 500+hp.
So I'm not sure your argument.
I'm not saying the ME will cost $100k plus, but I am also saying you can't use cars that are not the same as evidence of that just because they are mid or rear engine. Hell, might as well through in the Ariel Atom at around $50k then.
And my point is that just because a car is ME, does not mean it must cost an exorbitant amount of money to "do right". There are currently and have been historically numerous ME cars at modest price points. As far as the power argument, I can go to JEGS and buy a 460hp LT1 for $8k or a ZR1 755hp crate engine for $17k. A Boxster plus even that retail price for a 755hp engine does not come close to $100k, let alone the 460hp LT1, and GM isn't paying close to that.
Saying that it has to be $100k to be "done right" is literally no different than saying any C7 under $100k is not "done right". Some people have an issue with separating mid-engined from supercar. They are not synonyms.
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01-31-2019, 10:49 PM
#236
Pro
By GM's own numbers, and, I am assuming these are numbers for sales in America, for the model year 2019, they sold 8702 Stingrays. That is 38% of the 23,040 Corvettes sold. 6603 of those Stingrays were 1LT's. That is 28% of all of the Corvettes sold up to January 2, 2019. If any of you think 28% of the buyers of Corvette are buoying up the company, you have a different image of business then I do. What it does show, however, on top of the figure of buyers that bought a base model, is that 62% bought Grand Sports, Z06's, and ZR1's. I do not propose that GM ignore, or negate, the buying power of 28% of the Corvette owners by bringing out a higher priced model (ME) but It might just be more valuable to cater to the 62% of the others. Incidentally, the ZR1 makes up 9% of their total sales and is still in heavy demand.
Corvette owns 35.1% of the American Sports Car Market, by 2018 Calendar year deliveries. This, even in their 2018 down year. Still, they sell more then twice the next largest seller of vehicles in America; Porsche. And the percentages go down from there with the other known sports car manufacturers. Corvette's front engine models are still a very strong brand! Given these statistics, adding the ME to the mix, at any price, and building it on the same lines as the FE in Bowling Green, it will surely dramatically augment the sales figures of the entire line.
Corvette owns 35.1% of the American Sports Car Market, by 2018 Calendar year deliveries. This, even in their 2018 down year. Still, they sell more then twice the next largest seller of vehicles in America; Porsche. And the percentages go down from there with the other known sports car manufacturers. Corvette's front engine models are still a very strong brand! Given these statistics, adding the ME to the mix, at any price, and building it on the same lines as the FE in Bowling Green, it will surely dramatically augment the sales figures of the entire line.
Last edited by ltomn; 01-31-2019 at 10:58 PM. Reason: Clarity
01-31-2019, 10:59 PM
#237
Melting Slicks
Tool, are you talking about the dual rear calipers that are the latest craze on cars like the million dollar McLaren Senna?
http://gmauthority.com/blog/2018/05/...heel-calipers/
http://gmauthority.com/blog/2018/05/...heel-calipers/
Yes, I did call out of the blue and yes I did talk with individuals from all three. My initial request was to discuss the generic mold box fabrication information. At the time of my call they had already completed them over 2 years prior. I assume they were production tooling because we discussed the surface tolerances of being a near mirror like surface finish.
If they did willfully speak on the record to someone who told them it was going straight to the internet, you shouldn't have a problem naming names, at the very least companies.
And if this happened likely 2.5-3 years ago, if it was already 2 years prior when you called, it was prototype tooling. No way GM had final aero designs done 3+ years before launch to buy production tools.
Folks, several of us have been chanting this for months now: it won't be a Mid Engine Corvette (Zora) without a bunch of the things listed on the List of Components thread included on it. Read that and then rejoice because, frankly, when this car is released, the price may be higher but it will be a much better car.
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01-31-2019, 11:17 PM
#239
Pro
https://www.corvetteforum.com/forums...name-zerv.html
Following your weekend of reading that thread (it's a long one), re-read the thread List of Components...
https://www.corvetteforum.com/forums...-corvette.html
Last edited by ltomn; 01-31-2019 at 11:17 PM. Reason: additional info
01-31-2019, 11:46 PM
#240
Le Mans Master
By GM's own numbers, and, I am assuming these are numbers for sales in America, for the model year 2019, they sold 8702 Stingrays. That is 38% of the 23,040 Corvettes sold. 6603 of those Stingrays were 1LT's. That is 28% of all of the Corvettes sold up to January 2, 2019. If any of you think 28% of the buyers of Corvette are buoying up the company, you have a different image of business then I do. What it does show, however, on top of the figure of buyers that bought a base model, is that 62% bought Grand Sports, Z06's, and ZR1's. I do not propose that GM ignore, or negate, the buying power of 28% of the Corvette owners by bringing out a higher priced model (ME) but It might just be more valuable to cater to the 62% of the others. Incidentally, the ZR1 makes up 9% of their total sales and is still in heavy demand.
Corvette owns 35.1% of the American Sports Car Market, by 2018 Calendar year deliveries. This, even in their 2018 down year. Still, they sell more then twice the next largest seller of vehicles in America; Porsche. And the percentages go down from there with the other known sports car manufacturers. Corvette's front engine models are still a very strong brand! Given these statistics, adding the ME to the mix, at any price, and building it on the same lines as the FE in Bowling Green, it will surely dramatically augment the sales figures of the entire line.
Corvette owns 35.1% of the American Sports Car Market, by 2018 Calendar year deliveries. This, even in their 2018 down year. Still, they sell more then twice the next largest seller of vehicles in America; Porsche. And the percentages go down from there with the other known sports car manufacturers. Corvette's front engine models are still a very strong brand! Given these statistics, adding the ME to the mix, at any price, and building it on the same lines as the FE in Bowling Green, it will surely dramatically augment the sales figures of the entire line.
We can sit here and BS numbers all day but sure, gm makes more money on a z06 than a gs. That's a fact. But the thing is the difference is 15-25k per unit but you're selling almost 20% percent less. So your scale is roughly the same. That's how I look at it anyway.