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ok guys i just got off the phone with a few c8 parts suppliers so here's gm's plans:
1. All sports car production will move to bga. Understand how revolutionary this is: Cars were previously built on assembly lines according to their underlying platform. Barra has instituted a new paradigm to assign car production based upon a car's performance level. So all the fastest cars, from chevy and cadillac (sorry buick, you're still for wheezy geezers) will be built at bga using their innovative skillet system.
2. There's a fe corvette and camaro replacement called the cormaro. It's a 2+2 but they made the back seats even smaller so fe corvette buyer loyalty would apply. It even has round tail lights to ensure all the fe corvette faithful will flock to it. Reuss came up with the idea and he's very proud of it.
3. The c8 will cost $380,000.
I'll call some more suppliers on my lunch break and let you guys know what i learn.
Ok guys I just got off the phone with a few C8 parts suppliers so here's GM's plans:
1. All sports car production will move to BGA. Understand how revolutionary this is: cars were previously built on assembly lines according to their underlying platform. Barra has instituted a new paradigm to assign car production based upon a car's performance level. So all the fastest cars, from Chevy and Cadillac (sorry Buick, you're still for wheezy geezers) will be built at BGA using their innovative skillet system.
2. There's a FE Corvette and Camaro replacement called the Cormaro. It's a 2+2 but they made the back seats even smaller so FE Corvette buyer loyalty would apply. It even has round tail lights to ensure all the FE Corvette faithful will flock to it. Reuss came up with the idea and he's very proud of it.
3. The C8 will cost $380,000.
I'll call some more suppliers on my lunch break and let you guys know what I learn.
By this afternoon, you should be able to come up with a comprehensive price list of all models, as well as the various standard and optional equipment packages and cost on each.
Notice F1 cars can lock their front tires? Modern cars have ABS that you can't disable. The level of grip of the tires determines the pressure to the calipers. This negates the need for dual calipers. I put a switch in to my 90 Vette behind the gear shift to be able to disable the ABS in a hurry incase of a spin. I could switch it back on without any problems. My 92 was different. A code comes on and you have to restart to reboot and that is how every Vette has been since.
Ok, now I follow after rereading your comments in a row. I agree, it's not dual caliper setup but a parking brake since the traditional in hat system is going away, that was my view all along. And yes, Maybach a Fn heavy! Lol.
F1 cars can lock any tire independently given the dont have
ABS and the heat those brake systems is ridiculous, I love F1 btw. Fascinating how many variables drivers can adjust, real time, from the seat including brake bias from on track corner to corner.
ABS has certainly changed the way our cars react to changes in weight transfer to each corner and I'm sure a dozen other factors. Pointing out today's tire technology is also a valid point. Most folks look at tires from a cornering perspective but braking is also a key factor. As a card carrying racer friend of mine told me after a track day, he has raced private porsche at 12 and 24 hour events, what separates me from him is I brake for ****. Lol, his words. I realize that's only part of it considering err ring my limited track time compared to his. He also says what separates him from factory drivers or full time team drivers is he brakes for **** compared to them. Ha
I doubt it will happen but would be kind of cool if GM could mimic what Ferrari is doing with offering both FE and ME options. The new 488 Pista (ME) and Portofino (California replacement FE) are beautiful. Dare to dream that GM would do the same sort of thing I guess
488 Pista ME
Portofino FE
They will, for sure.
It's called a C8 Corvette and a 7th Gen Camaro.
A FE corvette has essentially been made obsolete, performance-wise, by the Camaro. Looks-wise, not even close though.
You're right Shaka. Corvette is exactly on track to emulate Ferrari. A C8 FE with a 65k - 150k+ bandwidth and a C8 ME with a 85k - 200k bandwidth. Exactly at a 1 to 3 price ratio of Corvette to Ferrari pricing where it's been for decades.
ABS has certainly changed the way our cars react to changes in weight transfer to each corner and I'm sure a dozen other factors. Pointing out today's tire technology is also a valid point. Most folks look at tires from a cornering perspective but braking is also a key factor. As a card carrying racer friend of mine told me after a track day, he has raced private porsche at 12 and 24 hour events, what separates me from him is I brake for ****. Lol, his words. I realize that's only part of it considering err ring my limited track time compared to his. He also says what separates him from factory drivers or full time team drivers is he brakes for **** compared to them.
The last thing most drivers-in-training figure out is braking.
I doubt it will happen but would be kind of cool if GM could mimic what Ferrari is doing with offering both FE and ME options. The new 488 Pista (ME) and Portofino (California replacement FE) are beautiful. Dare to dream that GM would do the same sort of thing I guess
488 Pista ME
Portofino FE
Originally Posted by Foosh
Chevrolet will be mimicking what Ferrari is doing by offering both ME and FE high performance cars with the ME Corvette and FE Camaro. 488 is to ME C8 as Ferrari is to Chevrolet.
I think it is interesting that Chevy is chasing around after a mid-engined car at the same time Ferrari is advertising their 812 Superfast as the most powerful and fastest road going Ferrari ever made. And it has the basic configuration as a C7, front engine, transmission in the rear with the differential. They do qualify ther statement with an exception of rear-engined “special limited-series“ 12-cylinders.
You have to to wonder if Chevy is just chasing its tail with a ME.
With its output boosted to 800 cv, 60 more than the F12berlinetta, the 812 Superfast is the most powerful and fastest road-going Ferrari ever built (with the exception, of course, of the rear-engined special limited-series 12-cylinders). The 812 Superfast thus ushers in a new era in Ferrari 12-cylinder history, and, in doing so, builds on the invaluable legacies of the F12berlinetta and F12tdf.
To make full use of that huge power and to guarantee perfect weight distribution, the car exploits a highly evolved transaxle architecture that couples a front-mounted engine with a rear-mounted transmission.
You're right Shaka. Corvette is exactly on track to emulate Ferrari. A C8 FE with a 65k - 150k+ bandwidth and a C8 ME with a 85k - 200k bandwidth. Exactly at a 1 to 3 price ratio of Corvette to Ferrari pricing where it's been for decades.
Chevrolet's name, nor Corvette's name, have the clout to pull it off. Simple as that.
Dodge Viper didn't have it either and neither does the NSX. NSX had a near legendary status with its name which Acura thought they could milk off. It failed miserably in the marketplace. You think Chevrolet will succeed where they failed? You are smoking some really strong stuff.
Not that there's much to add to this conversation any more, never mind anything having to do with dubious logic, but....the simplest answer is *usually* the right answer.
Originally Posted by smithers
I think if there was any real chance of a new or refreshed FE car to live next to the ME car we would be seeing FE test mules running around.
Exxxcellent, Smithers. (Sorry, couldn't resist). I would also have expected some whiff of a FE mule if there were going to be parallel FE & ME models. That's a big point in favor of ME-only for me.
Originally Posted by lt4obsesses
There are compelling arguments going either way.
Scenario one: The Mid Engine car is a specialized performance variant designed for low volume, with ZR1 power or better and primarily track focused. This car will be on it's own generational timeline, ME 1, ME 2 etc. The price point would probably start at ZR1 levels. If they went this route, they could continue the C7 as is, side by side....
Scenario two: The FE will be done. The 8th generation of Corvette will be mid engine and that's it. In this case GM goes all in with the new platform. Personally, I don't see where it makes much sense to market this "all new" Corvette that has been 50+ years in the dreaming, and then fall back and say, "but we'll keep making the same old Corvette, just in case you don't like this one.".....
Scenario three: They create a new FE and call it the C8, and roll it out alongside the ME, which will have it's own timeline, but not necessarily a higher priced, low volume 'track car' as in scenario one. More like you have a choice of these two great all new cars. This is very plausible, except that it could be a logistical nightmare for GM....
I think this is a great summary of likely options. Keeping with the simplicity idea, having one 8th generation car simplifies production, marketing, logistics, and sustainment. So I regard scenario two as the most likely. However, scenario one is also pretty plausible and I'd be perfectly happy with it. I've always thought it was a little odd that GM has never bothered to create a more direct competitor to the Ford GT (not that GM should make a 'halo car' that exclusive or that expensive - it's completely obnoxious now), and having a "Zora" above the traditional Corvette line targeted at the deeper-pocket folks could make some sense. The big question in that case is....how will the Corvette forum handle it if "C8" turns out not to be a Corvette, per se?
Not that there's much to add to this conversation any more, never mind anything having to do with dubious logic, but....the simplest answer is *usually* the right answer.
Exactly, it's the Principle (or Law) of Parsimony: "the scientific principle that things are usually connected or behave in the simplest or most economical way, especially with reference to alternative evolutionary pathways." [Courtesy of Dictionary.com]
It's pretty clear what scenario that points to in this case, which is Corvette is ME-only in a variety of trims and performance levels, and Camaro does the same for the FE market. Ferrari and Porsche are brands with many different models as is Chevrolet. Any other scenario is fraught with far more peril and economic risk.
Loss of economies of scale gained from volume production of a single platform with a majority of shared components across the entire model family (a la base C7 through ZR1) would force GM to surrender much of it's traditional cost advantage, which has made Corvette the best selling sports car.
A lot of folks keep saying, "the C7 is already fully developed, it would be cheap to keep building it," or something to that effect, but you have to keep buying the components to build them, and the fewer you buy, the more it's going to cost. The same is true for the cost of the ME. Cannibalizing the Corvette market by splitting it into two sports cars would increase costs to both consumer and manufacturer, and likely hurt Camaro as well.
The last thing most drivers-in-training figure out is braking.
Ya well I dont have the time, money or talent so i just keep it safe and do my best to learn and have a great experience. Was my limiting factor at track days on motorcycles too. Lol Hey i tried, two low sides thank god no high sides!
Exactly, it's the Principle (or Law) of Parsimony: "the scientific principle that things are usually connected or behave in the simplest or most economical way, especially with reference to alternative evolutionary pathways." [Courtesy of Dictionary.com]
It's pretty clear what scenario that points to in this case, which is Corvette is ME-only in a variety of trims and performance levels, and Camaro does the same for the FE market. Ferrari and Porsche are brands with many different models as is Chevrolet. Any other scenario is fraught with far more peril and economic risk.
Loss of economies of scale gained from volume production of a single platform with a majority of shared components across the entire model family (a la base C7 through ZR1) would force GM to surrender much of it's traditional cost advantage, which has made Corvette the best selling sports car.
A lot of folks keep saying," the C7 is already fully developed, it would be cheap to keep building it," or something to that effect, but you have to keep buying the components to build them, and the fewer you buy, the more it's going to cost. The same is true for the cost of the ME. Cannibalizing the Corvette market by splitting it into two sports cars would increase costs to both consumer and manufacturer, and possibly even hurt Camaro.
That is kind of why I thought that it might make sense to pull Camaro production in house since they share so many parts right now. They could build the Camaro on most of the C7 parts so they wouldn't have to pay for that R&D again. I would love it if Corvette made an FE and a ME but that just doesn't make business sense so it will likely be Camaro (FE) and Corvette (ME) as you and others have stated. Especially in this economic climate where GM is consolidating and dropping low selling models.
Ok guys I just got off the phone with a few C8 parts suppliers so here's GM's plans:
1. All sports car production will move to BGA. Understand how revolutionary this is: cars were previously built on assembly lines according to their underlying platform. Barra has instituted a new paradigm to assign car production based upon a car's performance level. So all the fastest cars, from Chevy and Cadillac (sorry Buick, you're still for wheezy geezers) will be built at BGA using their innovative skillet system.
2. There's a FE Corvette and Camaro replacement called the Cormaro. It's a 2+2 but they made the back seats even smaller so FE Corvette buyer loyalty would apply. It even has round tail lights to ensure all the FE Corvette faithful will flock to it. Reuss came up with the idea and he's very proud of it.
3. The C8 will cost $380,000.
I'll call some more suppliers on my lunch break and let you guys know what I learn.
I've always thought it was a little odd that GM has never bothered to create a more direct competitor to the Ford GT (not that GM should make a 'halo car' that exclusive or that expensive - it's completely obnoxious now), and having a "Zora" above the traditional Corvette line targeted at the deeper-pocket folks could make some sense. ?
The corollary to that: what would it actually accomplish, or what goals do hope to obtain from it? The GT is a cool car and all, but I don't think it really adds to Ford's prestige, at least outside of the racing crowds, and at its scarcity even at $400k MSPR it is still rumored to be losing money on every sale. Is there actually a great enough market demand above the ZR1 to support an even more exclusive car?
Ok guys I just got off the phone with a few C8 parts suppliers so here's GM's plans:
1. All sports car production will move to BGA. Understand how revolutionary this is: cars were previously built on assembly lines according to their underlying platform. Barra has instituted a new paradigm to assign car production based upon a car's performance level. So all the fastest cars, from Chevy and Cadillac (sorry Buick, you're still for wheezy geezers) will be built at BGA using their innovative skillet system.
2. There's a FE Corvette and Camaro replacement called the Cormaro. It's a 2+2 but they made the back seats even smaller so FE Corvette buyer loyalty would apply. It even has round tail lights to ensure all the FE Corvette faithful will flock to it. Reuss came up with the idea and he's very proud of it.
3. The C8 will cost $380,000.
I'll call some more suppliers on my lunch break and let you guys know what I learn.
The corollary to that: what would it actually accomplish, or what goals do hope to obtain from it? The GT is a cool car and all, but I don't think it really adds to Ford's prestige, at least outside of the racing crowds, and at its scarcity even at $400k MSPR it is still rumored to be losing money on every sale. Is there actually a great enough market demand above the ZR1 to support an even more exclusive car?
I think the answer to your question is pretty clear based upon the sales numbers of sports cars in various price brackets. Based upon first-year ZR1 sales, the market for a $130K Corvette is around 2K per year. ME novelty may push it a bit higher, but no one sells more than about that number of units in that price range with the possible exception of Porsche given its worldwide sales presence.
To make a profit with that sales volume, you have to get into Ferrari, Lambo, McLaren, and Porsche GT2 RS price territory, where a Corvette would struggle with its legacy as a "bargain" sports car. The ZR1 can only be profitably built and sold at the current price because it shares the majority of its components (e.g. short block, chassis, transmission, eDiff, electronics, computers, modules, HVAC, all interior parts, glass and many other components) with lesser C7s.
I'll call some more suppliers on my lunch break and let you guys know what I learn.
If you could get some of those suppliers to give up the price piece cost that GM pays them, I'd love the info to try and undercut our competition on their bids next time
I think the answer to your question is pretty clear based upon the sales numbers sports cars in various price brackets. Based upon first-year ZR1 sales, the market for a $130K Corvette is around 2K per year. ME novelty may push it a bit higher, but no one sells more than about the number of units in that price range.
True. Maybe there are two questions to ask: 1) if GM were to do a one off halo car (that has an out of the range of most buyers price tag like the GT), what are their goals and what would they consider a successful run to be, and 2) is there a market to truly support an even higher end version of the presumed new C8 car, say at $160k-190k price tag MSRP? Would the upgraded version be more luxurious (say perhaps a caddy) or more performance orientated (say a street legal in name only track car)?
Chevy has done, by all accounts, exceptionally well with the price range and the market the Corvette sells in. I'm trying to understand what I am missing, that so many think that it would be good for GM to significantly move outside an area they dominate.
Some are living in a car nut dream world without thinking about, or having any comprehension of, the business realities. It is absolutely inconceivable to me that GM would abandon the successful model they have carved out for Corvette. Suddenly deciding to go head-to-head with the prestige manufacturers, who have built their exotic and exclusive reputations over many decades is a sure-fire crash and burn strategy.
FGT is purely a Ford marketing campaign, not a profit center.
Chevrolet's name, nor Corvette's name, have the clout to pull it off. Simple as that.
Dodge Viper didn't have it either and neither does the NSX. NSX had a near legendary status with its name which Acura thought they could milk off. It failed miserably in the marketplace. You think Chevrolet will succeed where they failed? You are smoking some really strong stuff.
The Viper was too “raw” and the new NSX too high tech.
The ME “Corvette” needs to be somewhere in between.
02-01-2019, 12:05 PM
By this afternoon, you should be able to come up with a comprehensive price list of all models, as well as the various standard and optional equipment packages and cost on each.
