Corvette C8 vs. Tesla Roadster?!
#221
The Consigliere
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Just remember that questioning the powers that be when you feel they are mistaken instead of blindly following their doctrine is what created and continues to drive the United States. This goes for believing car manufacturers as well. Industry has proven historically time and again that they are willing to buy and/or bury innovation that hurts their profitability even if it is significantly better than their profitable alternative. I am guessing EV is in some way very profitable in their forecasts either through increase price per unit or by opening up larger market share overseas (i.e. China). I like EV as a hybrid technology or as a stopgap to the next big thing but it would be a mistake to base our entire society on it barring some breakthrough in electric storage/refueling to drive down cost and inconvenience. ICE is the past and the present but that doesn't mean it has to stick around for the future either as long as what comes next is better (even if that is some better form of EV or fusion or whatever).
If this was a genuine consumer demand based enterprise, we'd have far fewer EVs on the road than even the relatively small numbers we have now.
#222
Le Mans Master
I just don't get why we are even discussing Tesla vs. Corvette. One is a commuting car and the other is a toy. Let's not confuse the two. The reality is that the Tesla is unusable on a road course (and will stay unusable in the foreseeable future), but the Corvette is usable on the street (maybe not ideal) and on a track. Your references to Luddites and Netflix 'Behind the Curve' is ridiculous to say the least. So is the argument for carbon footprint (in today's infrastructure).
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joseanMD (02-27-2019)
#223
Racer
The manufacturers aren't going EV because of widespread, broad, market demand. They're going there because various governments are forcing them there.
If this was a genuine consumer demand based enterprise, we'd have far fewer EVs on the road than even the relatively small numbers we have now.
If this was a genuine consumer demand based enterprise, we'd have far fewer EVs on the road than even the relatively small numbers we have now.
#224
The Consigliere
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I agree that governments are pushing but profitability in the case I cited does not necessarily have anything to do with consumer demand but it does have to do with the market in which you want to sell cars. If in China they say that everyone can only buy EVs then not having one will lose you a lot of money. If you are one of only a couple of choices for EVs when they transition over because you got to the technology first then you gain quite a bit due to lack of choice and it gives you a solid foothold. I guarantee that if a car company went to one of these countries and said they had a better alternative (no exhaust, cheaper etc) that the governments would adopt it. Electric just feels like it is the best of a bunch of mediocre choices at the moment. Hopefully that will change and quickly
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vndkshn (02-27-2019)
#225
Le Mans Master
"...as a result, you'd have to be soft in the head to buy the electric version over the petrol car." --Jeremy Clarkson
#226
Banned Scam/Spammer
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Rodbuster56 (02-27-2019)
#228
Le Mans Master
do they still need Platinum as a conductor? thats a cost barrier that will keep rising unless they can find something else. The issue with all of these is the rely on rare earth elements and cost will simply increase, not decrease if mass production were ever to take place.
#229
Le Mans Master
Hydrogen fuel cells are even more impractical than batteries.
1) You still have to put energy INTO water to get H2 out. That energy has to come from somewhere. Right now, that means heating water into superheated steam, injecting the superheated steam into methane and getting H2 and CO2 out. Wait, wasn't the whole point to reduce CO2?
2) Liquid hydrogen only has about 1/4 the energy density of gasoline. The greenies will go on and on about energy per kilogram comparing favorably to gas, but when was the last time you bought your fuel by the kilo? Fact is, it takes 3.75 gallons of liquid H2 to equal the energy available in 1 gallon of gas. So real world, any car that has a 15 gallon tank now will have the equivalent of a 4 gallon tank with H2. Or less trunk space. Or else cars are going to get a lot bigger.
3) Ever try to store liquid H2? You have to store it at something like negative 400 degrees F. otherwise it will turn to gas. You're not going to be able to leave fuel in the tank of your car for a week without some form of refrigeration. Which means the car will need some sort of active refrigeration if the fuel isn't going to evaporate after a couple of days. The amount of energy required to maintain a 500 degree difference between the H2 and ambient is going to be the exact same amount of energy needed to keep an oven at 500 degrees. Not cheap.
Fuel cells will never be more than a niche. There are easier ways already in existence.
1) You still have to put energy INTO water to get H2 out. That energy has to come from somewhere. Right now, that means heating water into superheated steam, injecting the superheated steam into methane and getting H2 and CO2 out. Wait, wasn't the whole point to reduce CO2?
2) Liquid hydrogen only has about 1/4 the energy density of gasoline. The greenies will go on and on about energy per kilogram comparing favorably to gas, but when was the last time you bought your fuel by the kilo? Fact is, it takes 3.75 gallons of liquid H2 to equal the energy available in 1 gallon of gas. So real world, any car that has a 15 gallon tank now will have the equivalent of a 4 gallon tank with H2. Or less trunk space. Or else cars are going to get a lot bigger.
3) Ever try to store liquid H2? You have to store it at something like negative 400 degrees F. otherwise it will turn to gas. You're not going to be able to leave fuel in the tank of your car for a week without some form of refrigeration. Which means the car will need some sort of active refrigeration if the fuel isn't going to evaporate after a couple of days. The amount of energy required to maintain a 500 degree difference between the H2 and ambient is going to be the exact same amount of energy needed to keep an oven at 500 degrees. Not cheap.
Fuel cells will never be more than a niche. There are easier ways already in existence.
Hydrogen can and is made with renewable energy sources. California hydrogen filling stations are required to have at 33% of the hydrogen produced from renewable sources, and some stations, this value is 100%.
Fuel cell cars do not use liquid hydrogen. They use pressurized gaseous hydrogen stored onboard the car in carbon fiber tanks.
There are three hydrogen fuel cars available in California: Toyota Marai, Honda Clarity, and Hyundai Nexo. They have ranges of 312 to 380 miles.
#230
Le Mans Master
I feel like this post is from about 20 years ago.
Hydrogen can and is made with renewable energy sources. California hydrogen filling stations are required to have at 33% of the hydrogen produced from renewable sources, and some stations, this value is 100%.
Fuel cell cars do not use liquid hydrogen. They use pressurized gaseous hydrogen stored onboard the car in carbon fiber tanks.
There are three hydrogen fuel cars available in California: Toyota Marai, Honda Clarity, and Hyundai Nexo. They have ranges of 312 to 380 miles.
Hydrogen can and is made with renewable energy sources. California hydrogen filling stations are required to have at 33% of the hydrogen produced from renewable sources, and some stations, this value is 100%.
Fuel cell cars do not use liquid hydrogen. They use pressurized gaseous hydrogen stored onboard the car in carbon fiber tanks.
There are three hydrogen fuel cars available in California: Toyota Marai, Honda Clarity, and Hyundai Nexo. They have ranges of 312 to 380 miles.
And infrastructure is even worse than the electrics - there's only 100 hydrogen fueling stations in California, all on the coast. WHY would I want a car that performs like the 1970's and traps me in either Los Angeles or San francisco?
#231
Banned Scam/Spammer
There were approximately 81 million vehicles sold worldwide last year. Porsche sold approximately 250,000 of them. Even if Porsche went 100% BEV this year, it would still be a drop in the bucket.
I remember watching the moon landing in 1969. I also remember being on duty the day JKF was killed in 1963. I was on duty in a Titan II missile silo and we were seconds away from blowing Russia off the face of the earth. I hugged a 90' long, 10' in diameter, missile with a 10' long reentry vehicle on top(with a powerful nuclear bomb enclosed) just about every day. I bet I've been involved in "new" technology long before you were born.
I remember watching the moon landing in 1969. I also remember being on duty the day JKF was killed in 1963. I was on duty in a Titan II missile silo and we were seconds away from blowing Russia off the face of the earth. I hugged a 90' long, 10' in diameter, missile with a 10' long reentry vehicle on top(with a powerful nuclear bomb enclosed) just about every day. I bet I've been involved in "new" technology long before you were born.
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joseanMD (02-27-2019)
#232
Le Mans Master
Which proves my point - you're best response is to point to cars ONLY sold in commiefornia, perform like crap, and cost an arm and a leg. I looked at the Hyundai and it costs $60,000 and does 0-60 in 9.5 seconds. What a bahgain. What a bahgain fo' me.
And infrastructure is even worse than the electrics - there's only 100 hydrogen fueling stations in California, all on the coast. WHY would I want a car that performs like the 1970's and traps me in either Los Angeles or San francisco?
And infrastructure is even worse than the electrics - there's only 100 hydrogen fueling stations in California, all on the coast. WHY would I want a car that performs like the 1970's and traps me in either Los Angeles or San francisco?
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ArmchairArchitect (02-28-2019)
#234
Wikipedia
Launch: July 16, 1969, 13:32 UTC
Landing: July 20, 1969, at 20:17 UTC.
First Step; July 21 at 02:56:15 UTC;
Is possible he is referring to the launch and lives on the west coast which would have been around 5:30am his time.
I had to look up the times, I wasn't alive and wasnt born for almost another 20 years so I couldn't remember.
Launch: July 16, 1969, 13:32 UTC
Landing: July 20, 1969, at 20:17 UTC.
First Step; July 21 at 02:56:15 UTC;
Is possible he is referring to the launch and lives on the west coast which would have been around 5:30am his time.
I had to look up the times, I wasn't alive and wasnt born for almost another 20 years so I couldn't remember.
Last edited by flyingbunnys; 02-28-2019 at 05:35 AM.
#235
Le Mans Master
So the best you can do is deflect from my valid points and talk about cell phones?
#236
Banned Scam/Spammer
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Every new technology in its infancy is more expensive than the technology it's replacing. Early adopters always pay the most. And the infrastructure lags at first but then catches up quickly. Also, the cost of EVs will continue to decrease:
https://cleantechnica.com/2018/06/09...packs-in-2020/
"This means that compelling and competitively priced EVs will soon be able to successfully compete in even lower priced segments of the auto market, and continue from there to make more and more affordable EVs possible. On this trend line, even the small economy car segment of the auto market (around the $15,000 price point) will see compelling EVs capable of all use cases, including long highway journeys, by 2023."
Don't forget, to help (or completely) offset the higher current purchase price, over the life of a vehicle, with an EV you save on fuel costs, no oil changes, less maintenance (motor requires zero maintenance). Also a side benefit is that your EV can serve as an emergency power source for your home (the battery in your car powering essentials in your home through a reverse feed).
That being said, to address the OP's point- from a performance standpoint, right now EVs are only proven to be good drag racers, not sports cars comparable to the Corvette (the weight and handling doesn't come close, not to mention ability to do multiple laps). They do make great point A to point B cars though.
https://cleantechnica.com/2018/06/09...packs-in-2020/
"This means that compelling and competitively priced EVs will soon be able to successfully compete in even lower priced segments of the auto market, and continue from there to make more and more affordable EVs possible. On this trend line, even the small economy car segment of the auto market (around the $15,000 price point) will see compelling EVs capable of all use cases, including long highway journeys, by 2023."
Don't forget, to help (or completely) offset the higher current purchase price, over the life of a vehicle, with an EV you save on fuel costs, no oil changes, less maintenance (motor requires zero maintenance). Also a side benefit is that your EV can serve as an emergency power source for your home (the battery in your car powering essentials in your home through a reverse feed).
That being said, to address the OP's point- from a performance standpoint, right now EVs are only proven to be good drag racers, not sports cars comparable to the Corvette (the weight and handling doesn't come close, not to mention ability to do multiple laps). They do make great point A to point B cars though.
Last edited by ArmchairArchitect; 02-28-2019 at 09:57 AM.
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Rodbuster56 (02-28-2019)
#238
Banned Scam/Spammer
#239
Drifting
Wikipedia
Launch: July 16, 1969, 13:32 UTC
Landing: July 20, 1969, at 20:17 UTC.
First Step; July 21 at 02:56:15 UTC;
Is possible he is referring to the launch and lives on the west coast which would have been around 5:30am his time.
I had to look up the times, I wasn't alive and wasnt born for almost another 20 years so I couldn't remember.
Launch: July 16, 1969, 13:32 UTC
Landing: July 20, 1969, at 20:17 UTC.
First Step; July 21 at 02:56:15 UTC;
Is possible he is referring to the launch and lives on the west coast which would have been around 5:30am his time.
I had to look up the times, I wasn't alive and wasnt born for almost another 20 years so I couldn't remember.
Last edited by BEAR-AvHistory; 02-28-2019 at 01:38 PM.
#240
Melting Slicks
I'll give you two that I just did:
1.) My daughter just graduated from Baylor Law. Total round trip without any side trips (like going to the event at the law school after, or lunch with the family after that, or running over to Magnolia so the wife can browse and pickup a few things, etc) puts it at 350 miles. Beyond the range of any EV from Tesla today I believe. Should I just stay overnight to make a Tesla work for me (BTW, I'd have to find a hotel with a charger, not the easiest thing to do in Waco actually). And that range is based on what speed? The 80-85 I was running? With the radio, heat (and AC since it was raining and the windows were fogging), wipers, and headlights on? I doubt it.
2.) A buddy of mine (who has a Tesla ironically) and I needed to run to Austin to hit Winding Road Racing. I wanted to try on new helmets and get my AIM data logger looked at and he had a few odds and ends he wanted to take care of there as well. It is about 250 miles from his house to Winding Road, so about 500 round trip. Assuming no detours or side trips to go get some awesome BBQ (hard to avoid) or TexMex... how do you see that trip working out? And yeah, it was a day trip for us, we took my wife's SUV and left his Tesla plugged into it's charger in his garage.
I too know several Tesla owners who have not turned into a pumpkin. But, using your analogy, I know they don't take their Tesla to every ball for that reason.
Last edited by vndkshn; 02-28-2019 at 02:51 PM.
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Rodbuster56 (02-28-2019)