Andy Pilgrim says ME needed, but risk
02-22-2019, 08:11 AM
#1
E-Ray, 3LZ, ZER, LIFT
Thread Starter
Member Since: Sep 2007
Location: NE South Carolina
Posts: 29,447
Received 9,605 Likes
on
6,618 Posts
Andy Pilgrim says ME needed, but risk
Just out. I condensed, eliminated pics and highlighted some key points:
By Andy Bolig February 21, 2019
The concept of a mid-engine Corvette has been passed around the halls of Chevrolet for decades. Zora Arkus-Duntov was a key proponent in the push to move the engine rearward. The C5 Corvette platform was introduced in 1997. The same basic configuration has carried over to both C6 and C7 generations of Corvette. Each generation improved on the basic design and brought about better control, refinement, and performance potential. The increase in performance may be the very reason Corvette needs to be a mid-engine design with the next generation ‘Vette.
We recently had a conversation with Andy Pilgrim. Long-time Corvette enthusiasts will recall Andy was one of the original drivers of the Corvette Racing team on the C5-R Corvette. He is now a valued consultant and team member for the National Corvette Museum and the NCM Motorsports Park in Bowling Green, Kentucky. Andy has extensive experience driving front-, mid-, and rear-engine cars in both competition and on the street. Check out the Racing Sports Cars website for a growing list of cars Andy has wielded around the apexes in competition. Andy is also an excellent instructor in both driving safety and performance driving. We asked Andy to help us understand, given Corvette’s current 50/50 weight ratio, what more could a mid-engine configuration bring to Corvette.
A MORE Perfect 50/50 We’ve grown accustomed to touting Corvette’s “perfect” 50/50 weight ratio, but there’s actually more to it than dividing front and rear parts equally. “It’s all about physics,” Andy says. “You have to look at things like the vehicle’s center of gravity as well as weight distribution. Things like the height of weight distribution/CG [center of gravity] can have a profound effect on a car’s handling. Beyond that, other characteristics such as a car’s polar moment [resistance to change direction] can change the way a car performs. It’s all VERY important.”
Andy explains the concept of polar moment so well by using a simple broom as an example. “Grab the handle end of a broom and try to swing it. It doesn’t want to change direction hardly at all. Grab in the middle of the handle and it’s easier, but still quite hard. But if you twist near the brush end, it changes direction much more easily.”
It’s the same when shifting the placement of an engine – you’re moving that polar moment. When you place mass in the middle, instead of the outer points of the car, it is much easier to turn. So much so, that the car’s newfound willingness to change direction can become a stability issue. The car can become super-responsive, to the point of being quite twitchy. Andy explains though, “The engineers can fix all that! That’s what they work on.”
When the C5 (and subsequent C6 and C7) hit the streets, it was touted as having a near-perfect 50/50 weight bias. While distributed evenly among the front and rear wheels, there were still better ways to carry the weight. Photo: GM Archives Another consideration is how high the car’s center of gravity is from the road surface. Andy explained how a move to mid-engine would solve several issues that have plagued Corvettes. “I’ve learned an incredible amount from engineers, but I’m not an engineer. I’ve learned that with a front-engine configuration, you’ve got a ton of stuff packed around the engine. You need to connect the front wheels with steering, which typically resides under part of the engine. That means you can’t get the engine down low enough. With a mid-engine, you can lower the engine and have a ton of space to do what you want with the suspension/steering.” Our ears perked up as he (without prodding) further explains why this is important: “Now you’ve got the room to put alternate power up front.” We like the sound of that!
Pursuit, Or Result Of Performance? Corvette engineers have devised some ingenious ways to harness Corvette’s power potential throughout the years, but subtle refinements to a car’s chassis cannot outrun exponential increases to its engine’s horsepower output. Recently, we have seen horsepower numbers soar with the C6, and now C7 ZR1 and Z06 Corvettes. With horsepower numbers nestled snugly amid super-car status, it could be said that Corvette’s chassis configuration was left wanting. A scenario that Andy knows all too well.
Andy Pilgrim was selected for Corvette Racing’s first factory ALMS effort in the 1999 Corvette C5-R. He has since driven various race cars for GM. He resides in Bowling Green, Kentucky and offers driving safety and performance driving instruction at the NCM Motorsports Park. Photo: NCM Motorsports Park “The current Grand Sport is superb on the racetrack. It’s a well-balanced package and you can utilize ALL of it,” he adds. “I can be extremely aggressive with a Z06 or ZR1; I know what they’ll do. But with the additional power of the Z06 and ZR1, after a hot lap or two, they totally over-drive the tires. Even in a straight line, cars with 250 less horsepower can out-power a ZR1 for loss of traction.”
The move to mid-engine would place the weight of the engine more on the rear tires, which would help with traction in severe acceleration situations. How severe you ask? Andy is confident that a mid-engine Corvette could be quite capable of breaking the 3-second 0-60 barrier! A feat not even possible with a front engine, mass-produced car. On the downside, moving the engine to the car’s mid-section can also benefit its braking. Andy explains, “Once braking starts, it can unsettle the rear in a front-engine car. With the mass further back, you can be more aggressive on both the front and the rear, as the rear brakes will be able to do more work. It’s all dependent on how the engineers set up the suspension.”
A mid-engine car can also offer more stability in an extreme braking event, both in a straight line and while turning. Having driven everything from the extremely overpowered, front-heavy (57 Front/43 Rear) Hellcat Red Eye to the rear-engine 911 at their limits, Andy shares his thoughts on what he thinks that means for the mid-engine Corvette. “It’s decreased polar moment means it is more resistant to understeer, but also should be a more stable platform, as forces occur equally at both ends of the car. It should feel INCREDIBLY stable!” Andy says. A mid-engine layout puts the engine directly mounted to the transmission in the rearward part of the car. This aids in traction and lowers the car’s polar moment, or resistance to changes in direction. The result is a more agile, better turning car.
A Different Driving Style We asked Andy what the different driving characteristics of a mid-engine Corvette may mean to the Corvette enthusiast. Would it require a complete change in driving style? He assured us that any learning curve would be full of benefits for both the average Corvette driver or seasoned veteran track star. He explains, “Whether on-track or on the street, with a front-engine car, the front tires will warm up quickly while the rear tires will take more time. With a rear engine car, there’s obviously more weight on the rear tires, which is essentially safer even when tires are cold. A mid-engine configuration balances between both scenarios.”
He goes on to explain, with the mid-engine car’s lower polar moment, the front will react quicker, meaning the driver will notice that the car is more responsive to turning input of the steering wheel. In a sense, the car will give you more of what you want, the driver simply needs to be aware of the car’s improved responsiveness. Of course, engineers seek to capitalize on the benefits and limit any unwanted characteristics.
Andy confides this is all part of the suspension setup. “It’s not simple” he explains. “It’s quite complicated. But the general consensus is, it will be a better handling vehicle and have much greater potential for a quick racing vehicle.”
Other Benefits of the Move There are other concerns when designing a mid-engine street car. Corvette buyers like a car that has storage space. A mid-engine layout makes that more difficult, and brings new design challenges for engineers. “Today’s Corvette is a street car, and buyers like the utility of the current Corvette,” Andy states. “It will be interesting to see how they have addressed that with a mid-engine Corvette. I’d be stunned if they did not address storage!”
His experience in driving other mid-engine cars assures him that Corvette owners will soon cozy up to some of the inherent benefits besides performance. “Corvettes have always had that big hood out front, and with this car, that all changes. The windshield will be expansive and you’ll have a panoramic view of the world around you. You won’t have a big hood out in front, which tends to help the driver feel more in control.” Overall, there should be a safer feeling, as they can drive and see things better. The short hood has a lot of benefits. Along with the amazing view, it helps give a totally different driving experience. I think enthusiasts are going to love it!”
As we ended our conversation, it was clear that Andy is just as enthusiastic as the rest of us to experience the car first-hand. He understands Corvette’s roots and heritage, but also knows what it takes to stay on top of the competition. He sees the move to mid-engine as a natural progression of improving the car’s performance, but also acknowledges that it is a bold step. “There’s a history there,” he says. “It’s a huge risk, but you’ve got to give a hats-off to any company that takes on this task. There aren’t many sub $100,000 mid-engine sports cars out there, yet it affords much greater potential for a quick racing vehicle. It will be able to run up with the best! It’s gonna be great!”
Andy Pilgrim Explains The Benefits Of A Mid-Engine Corvette
By Andy Bolig February 21, 2019
The concept of a mid-engine Corvette has been passed around the halls of Chevrolet for decades. Zora Arkus-Duntov was a key proponent in the push to move the engine rearward. The C5 Corvette platform was introduced in 1997. The same basic configuration has carried over to both C6 and C7 generations of Corvette. Each generation improved on the basic design and brought about better control, refinement, and performance potential. The increase in performance may be the very reason Corvette needs to be a mid-engine design with the next generation ‘Vette.
We recently had a conversation with Andy Pilgrim. Long-time Corvette enthusiasts will recall Andy was one of the original drivers of the Corvette Racing team on the C5-R Corvette. He is now a valued consultant and team member for the National Corvette Museum and the NCM Motorsports Park in Bowling Green, Kentucky. Andy has extensive experience driving front-, mid-, and rear-engine cars in both competition and on the street. Check out the Racing Sports Cars website for a growing list of cars Andy has wielded around the apexes in competition. Andy is also an excellent instructor in both driving safety and performance driving. We asked Andy to help us understand, given Corvette’s current 50/50 weight ratio, what more could a mid-engine configuration bring to Corvette.
A MORE Perfect 50/50 We’ve grown accustomed to touting Corvette’s “perfect” 50/50 weight ratio, but there’s actually more to it than dividing front and rear parts equally. “It’s all about physics,” Andy says. “You have to look at things like the vehicle’s center of gravity as well as weight distribution. Things like the height of weight distribution/CG [center of gravity] can have a profound effect on a car’s handling. Beyond that, other characteristics such as a car’s polar moment [resistance to change direction] can change the way a car performs. It’s all VERY important.”
Andy explains the concept of polar moment so well by using a simple broom as an example. “Grab the handle end of a broom and try to swing it. It doesn’t want to change direction hardly at all. Grab in the middle of the handle and it’s easier, but still quite hard. But if you twist near the brush end, it changes direction much more easily.”
It’s the same when shifting the placement of an engine – you’re moving that polar moment. When you place mass in the middle, instead of the outer points of the car, it is much easier to turn. So much so, that the car’s newfound willingness to change direction can become a stability issue. The car can become super-responsive, to the point of being quite twitchy. Andy explains though, “The engineers can fix all that! That’s what they work on.”
When the C5 (and subsequent C6 and C7) hit the streets, it was touted as having a near-perfect 50/50 weight bias. While distributed evenly among the front and rear wheels, there were still better ways to carry the weight. Photo: GM Archives Another consideration is how high the car’s center of gravity is from the road surface. Andy explained how a move to mid-engine would solve several issues that have plagued Corvettes. “I’ve learned an incredible amount from engineers, but I’m not an engineer. I’ve learned that with a front-engine configuration, you’ve got a ton of stuff packed around the engine. You need to connect the front wheels with steering, which typically resides under part of the engine. That means you can’t get the engine down low enough. With a mid-engine, you can lower the engine and have a ton of space to do what you want with the suspension/steering.” Our ears perked up as he (without prodding) further explains why this is important: “Now you’ve got the room to put alternate power up front.” We like the sound of that!
Pursuit, Or Result Of Performance? Corvette engineers have devised some ingenious ways to harness Corvette’s power potential throughout the years, but subtle refinements to a car’s chassis cannot outrun exponential increases to its engine’s horsepower output. Recently, we have seen horsepower numbers soar with the C6, and now C7 ZR1 and Z06 Corvettes. With horsepower numbers nestled snugly amid super-car status, it could be said that Corvette’s chassis configuration was left wanting. A scenario that Andy knows all too well.
Andy Pilgrim was selected for Corvette Racing’s first factory ALMS effort in the 1999 Corvette C5-R. He has since driven various race cars for GM. He resides in Bowling Green, Kentucky and offers driving safety and performance driving instruction at the NCM Motorsports Park. Photo: NCM Motorsports Park “The current Grand Sport is superb on the racetrack. It’s a well-balanced package and you can utilize ALL of it,” he adds. “I can be extremely aggressive with a Z06 or ZR1; I know what they’ll do. But with the additional power of the Z06 and ZR1, after a hot lap or two, they totally over-drive the tires. Even in a straight line, cars with 250 less horsepower can out-power a ZR1 for loss of traction.”
The move to mid-engine would place the weight of the engine more on the rear tires, which would help with traction in severe acceleration situations. How severe you ask? Andy is confident that a mid-engine Corvette could be quite capable of breaking the 3-second 0-60 barrier! A feat not even possible with a front engine, mass-produced car. On the downside, moving the engine to the car’s mid-section can also benefit its braking. Andy explains, “Once braking starts, it can unsettle the rear in a front-engine car. With the mass further back, you can be more aggressive on both the front and the rear, as the rear brakes will be able to do more work. It’s all dependent on how the engineers set up the suspension.”
A mid-engine car can also offer more stability in an extreme braking event, both in a straight line and while turning. Having driven everything from the extremely overpowered, front-heavy (57 Front/43 Rear) Hellcat Red Eye to the rear-engine 911 at their limits, Andy shares his thoughts on what he thinks that means for the mid-engine Corvette. “It’s decreased polar moment means it is more resistant to understeer, but also should be a more stable platform, as forces occur equally at both ends of the car. It should feel INCREDIBLY stable!” Andy says. A mid-engine layout puts the engine directly mounted to the transmission in the rearward part of the car. This aids in traction and lowers the car’s polar moment, or resistance to changes in direction. The result is a more agile, better turning car.
A Different Driving Style We asked Andy what the different driving characteristics of a mid-engine Corvette may mean to the Corvette enthusiast. Would it require a complete change in driving style? He assured us that any learning curve would be full of benefits for both the average Corvette driver or seasoned veteran track star. He explains, “Whether on-track or on the street, with a front-engine car, the front tires will warm up quickly while the rear tires will take more time. With a rear engine car, there’s obviously more weight on the rear tires, which is essentially safer even when tires are cold. A mid-engine configuration balances between both scenarios.”
He goes on to explain, with the mid-engine car’s lower polar moment, the front will react quicker, meaning the driver will notice that the car is more responsive to turning input of the steering wheel. In a sense, the car will give you more of what you want, the driver simply needs to be aware of the car’s improved responsiveness. Of course, engineers seek to capitalize on the benefits and limit any unwanted characteristics.
Andy confides this is all part of the suspension setup. “It’s not simple” he explains. “It’s quite complicated. But the general consensus is, it will be a better handling vehicle and have much greater potential for a quick racing vehicle.”
Other Benefits of the Move There are other concerns when designing a mid-engine street car. Corvette buyers like a car that has storage space. A mid-engine layout makes that more difficult, and brings new design challenges for engineers. “Today’s Corvette is a street car, and buyers like the utility of the current Corvette,” Andy states. “It will be interesting to see how they have addressed that with a mid-engine Corvette. I’d be stunned if they did not address storage!”
His experience in driving other mid-engine cars assures him that Corvette owners will soon cozy up to some of the inherent benefits besides performance. “Corvettes have always had that big hood out front, and with this car, that all changes. The windshield will be expansive and you’ll have a panoramic view of the world around you. You won’t have a big hood out in front, which tends to help the driver feel more in control.” Overall, there should be a safer feeling, as they can drive and see things better. The short hood has a lot of benefits. Along with the amazing view, it helps give a totally different driving experience. I think enthusiasts are going to love it!”
As we ended our conversation, it was clear that Andy is just as enthusiastic as the rest of us to experience the car first-hand. He understands Corvette’s roots and heritage, but also knows what it takes to stay on top of the competition. He sees the move to mid-engine as a natural progression of improving the car’s performance, but also acknowledges that it is a bold step. “There’s a history there,” he says. “It’s a huge risk, but you’ve got to give a hats-off to any company that takes on this task. There aren’t many sub $100,000 mid-engine sports cars out there, yet it affords much greater potential for a quick racing vehicle. It will be able to run up with the best! It’s gonna be great!”
Last edited by JerryU; 02-22-2019 at 08:27 AM.
The following 37 users liked this post by JerryU:
64drvr (04-03-2019),
AORoads (02-22-2019),
ByByBMW (02-22-2019),
capevettes (02-22-2019),
Demnos (02-22-2019),
and 32 others liked this post.
Popular Reply
03-07-2019, 02:01 PM
Melting Slicks
Putting an already lightweight car on a diet costs very SERIOUS amounts of $$$.
GM could throw more carbon fiber at it, but the car's price would skyrocket.
Most Vette fans would go ape-**** over that.
GM could throw more carbon fiber at it, but the car's price would skyrocket.
Most Vette fans would go ape-**** over that.
02-22-2019, 09:22 AM
#3
Race Director
Member Since: Oct 2011
Location: Holly Springs NC
Posts: 14,371
Received 1,609 Likes
on
1,037 Posts
St. Jude Donor '16-'17,'22,'24
Excellent Thread, thanks for posting.
The following users liked this post:
JerryU (02-22-2019)
02-22-2019, 09:42 AM
#4
Drifting
Thanks for sharing this Jerry, very informative. I’m very encouraged by the last paragraph, especially the statement, there are very few sub $100k mid engine cars out there
The following users liked this post:
JerryU (02-22-2019)
02-22-2019, 09:50 AM
#5
Burning Brakes
I always thought it was cool to be able to see the hood with all of it's curves and creases and such as compared to most passenger cars these days where all you have is a front window and the road. Oh well, we'll see.
The following users liked this post:
JerryU (02-22-2019)
02-22-2019, 10:31 AM
#7
Le Mans Master
Ad campaign started
So, if you were looking for a series of preludes to the revealing of the C8, here it is, it began!
Couple big take-aways: Hint of a hybrid configuration, hint of the price.
Couple big take-aways: Hint of a hybrid configuration, hint of the price.
The following users liked this post:
JerryU (02-22-2019)
02-22-2019, 10:39 AM
#8
E-Ray, 3LZ, ZER, LIFT
Thread Starter
Member Since: Sep 2007
Location: NE South Carolina
Posts: 29,447
Received 9,605 Likes
on
6,618 Posts
^^
Considering his position I'd add storage to hybrid possibility (at some point) and price. IMO, he knows!
Considering his position I'd add storage to hybrid possibility (at some point) and price. IMO, he knows!
Last edited by JerryU; 02-22-2019 at 10:39 AM.
02-22-2019, 10:44 AM
#9
Race Director
Member Since: Oct 2004
Location: Cape Cod, Mass.
Posts: 18,760
Received 4,543 Likes
on
2,159 Posts
2023 C3 of the Year Finalist - Unmodified
2021 C8 of the Year Finalist Unmodified
2020 Corvette of the Year Finalist (performance mods)
2019 C1 of Year Winner (performance mods)
2017 Corvette of the Year Finalist
2016 C2 of Year
2015 C3 of Year Finalist
Great reading. Coming from Andy, it is very meaningful. It's going to be a great handling and braking car. It will also be able to put the power to the ground. LS3 forward (LS7, LT-1, LT-4, LT-5), that's been a problem.
02-22-2019, 10:49 AM
#10
It's gonna be awesome. One of the things I prefer on my C5 to my C7 is the view out the hood. The C5 is low and sleek vs. the C7 having high fenders and an overly-high hood cowl for Euro pedestrian standards.
02-22-2019, 11:15 AM
#11
Melting Slicks
Great post and if you ever owned a ME it gives you a connection to the car that is hard to explain. The forward visibility without looking over that long hood makes a big difference.
I get the risk, but I think todays companies have to adjust to changing market conditions. The Auto Industry is going through major changes and the next five years will not look the same. If you think about it Amazon is the online version of Sears back in the day. Sears did not adjust to the changing market and it is DEAD. The ME has been talked about for decades in the halls of GM and Now they have the Leadership team to get it done.
Last thoughts:
If GM can build an ME, that has enough storage, better performance at a price point that is in range of the previous C7, it will be a success.
Name one manufacture that produces a rear Mid Engine sports car with a V8 & DCT that you can buy brand new with a warranty under 100k? I say NONE!
Change is coming some won't like it but I think in the end the Corvette ME is going to be a HIT! And for those that don't like it their will be new buyers that will. All I can say get in line if your not on a list.
I get the risk, but I think todays companies have to adjust to changing market conditions. The Auto Industry is going through major changes and the next five years will not look the same. If you think about it Amazon is the online version of Sears back in the day. Sears did not adjust to the changing market and it is DEAD. The ME has been talked about for decades in the halls of GM and Now they have the Leadership team to get it done.
Last thoughts:
If GM can build an ME, that has enough storage, better performance at a price point that is in range of the previous C7, it will be a success.
Name one manufacture that produces a rear Mid Engine sports car with a V8 & DCT that you can buy brand new with a warranty under 100k? I say NONE!
Change is coming some won't like it but I think in the end the Corvette ME is going to be a HIT! And for those that don't like it their will be new buyers that will. All I can say get in line if your not on a list.
Last edited by fasttoys; 02-22-2019 at 11:28 AM.
The following 4 users liked this post by fasttoys:
02-22-2019, 11:20 AM
#12
Agree, a mid-engine that starts below $80K and performs better than the current C7 base, will be a very big seller.
The following 3 users liked this post by Foosh:
02-22-2019, 03:25 PM
#13
E-Ray, 3LZ, ZER, LIFT
Thread Starter
Member Since: Sep 2007
Location: NE South Carolina
Posts: 29,447
Received 9,605 Likes
on
6,618 Posts
He will be able to get the maximum out of the car. I will measure what I can gain with the “g” force around the large fountain at the end of my street. 
Last edited by JerryU; 02-25-2019 at 02:01 AM.
The following users liked this post:
capevettes (02-22-2019)
02-22-2019, 03:58 PM
#14
Melting Slicks
Member Since: Mar 1999
Location: Apex NC
Posts: 2,830
Received 682 Likes
on
271 Posts
Cruise-In II Veteran
Cruise-In III Veteran
Of course, experience track drivers always have ‘“high eyes” where everyone else stares just over the hood. So I find it amusing that people comment on looking down as opposed to a great driver like Andy who literally looks to the horizon. The short hood will cause unskilled drivers (who believe they are “good drivers”) to drive worse. IMHO
The following users liked this post:
ajgoyt (04-04-2019)
02-22-2019, 04:58 PM
#15
Safety Car
What's polar moment? He must mean 'Planor' second moment of inertia which is the mass moment of inertia or the rotational motion resistance of an object. Now, Polar moment of inertia would apply to the chassis properties contained within it's structure only as an indication of rigidity.
The following users liked this post:
JerryU (02-22-2019)
The following users liked this post:
JerryU (02-22-2019)
02-22-2019, 05:29 PM
#18
Team Owner
Member Since: Jun 2005
Location: Northern, VA
Posts: 46,100
Received 2,478 Likes
on
1,941 Posts
St. Jude Donor '15
"In honor of jpee"
Enjoyed the article. Thanks.
The following users liked this post:
JerryU (02-22-2019)
02-22-2019, 05:46 PM
#19
Race Director
Of course, experience track drivers always have ‘“high eyes” where everyone else stares just over the hood. So I find it amusing that people comment on looking down as opposed to a great driver like Andy who literally looks to the horizon. The short hood will cause unskilled drivers (who believe they are “good drivers”) to drive worse. IMHO
Best view out the windshield that I have ever seen is the view out of the C3.
02-22-2019, 06:48 PM
#20
