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We're never gonna win this one. The fun factor is all personal opinion. I get told almost anytime I'm somewhere with enthusiasts that " autos are faster". I basically just ignore it now.
Not that it matters, but I'd still say majority of the time I get comments on my M7 like " that's the way to go".....
Reflective glory. Basking in the car magazine specs.
Ask one if he's ever been in any race where his auto is faster, and can he produce the videos? If not, tell him that you don't believe he's faster since he is not able to prove it.
..I'm finding that they can't drive a manual transmission (or never owned a Corvette manual) is usually why they parrot the car magazines.
If not, tell him that you don't believe he's faster since he is not able to prove it.
..I'm finding that they can't drive a manual transmission (or never owned a Corvette manual) is usually why they parrot the car magazines.
Traditional TC autos are faster on a drag strip. Look at any top level drag car and tell me how many traditional manuals you see. The answer is zero.
Newfangled auto DCTs are faster on a road course. Look at any top level sports or open wheel car and tell me how many traditional manuals you see. None in the premier flights (beyond NASCAR, but that isn't because they are technologically superior). They only appear in the lower level, cost controlled series. Even the C7.R doesn't use a traditional manual.
And yes, I can drive a stick just fine. They had a non-straight line performance advantage over TC autos. They certainly don't over DCTs, beyond the "fun" factor.
Virtually every modern military jet (and actually most planes) use "fly by wire" technology. Effectively, the pilot's input goes into a computer, and the optimum configuration is controlled by that computer... there is no mechanical connection between the pilot's controls, and the control surfaces of the airplane.
So, I use a mechanical linkage to connect a foot pedal to a lever that disengages the clutch. The actual work is done by the mechanism at the driver requests.
Now, assume I connect the clutch pedal of a car to a cylinder that sends hydraulic pressure to a slave cylinder that actually disengages the clutch without a mechanical linkage.
Now assume that instead of a hydraulic cylinder, I use a relay under the pedal, and an electromechanical actuator.
Now assume that, instead of a foot pedal, I use a hand lever to activate that relay.
Now assume that, instead of a hand lever, I use input from the throttle position to activate that relay.
Now assume that the electromechanical actuator is located WITHIN the transmission housing.
Now assume that I give the driver the option to let the computer actuate the clutch based on multiple inputs.
"Manual" comes from "manus" or "hand. In fact losing the clutch "foot" pedal means loss of "pedual" transmission.... in a DCT, the paddles are still activated by the driver's hands, and thus still "manual"
Sheesh!
I have to admit this was a good try! But in fact "manual" in reference to a "manual transmission" is not a reference to the root of the word "manual" or "hand". It's in reference to the definition of manual being, "worked or done by hand and NOT machine; requiring or using physical skill and energy"
I have to admit this was a good try! But in fact "manual" in reference to a "manual transmission" is not a reference to the root of the word "manual" or "hand". It's in reference to the definition of manual being, "worked or done by hand and NOT machine; requiring or using physical skill and energy"
Well if we really want to dig back into this,, the work is actually being done by shift linkages, which I would argue are machinery. If I really wanted to go further into that, shifting with paddles is the same thing, your hands are moving mechanics that shift gears, just with wires and servos conveying the sift signal instead of rods of metal.
Traditional TC autos are faster on a drag strip. Look at any top level drag car and tell me how many traditional manuals you see. The answer is zero.
Agree, for many drag race classes an "automatic" is faster. Where you have more power than traction a race prepared 2 speed Powerglide is used as only one shift. BUT there is still an energy wasting torque converter and lots of oil pumping around.
However it the Top ProSotck class with the most sophisticated and secretive engines (500 cid NA on gasoline producing over 1500 hp) you need all the power you can get. Very close races. They use a conventional clutch only at launch then a geared trans for more efficiency. The transmissions are interesting.
The LENCO has been around for a long time. It's like an automatics sun/planetary gears BUT it's not hydraulics that engage the multiple clutch disks that engage a gear - it's your hand! Recall watching a LENCO Tech at an NHRA National Race rebuilding one (a service they offer.) Asked what the biggest issue is in keeping them alive. He said you have to shift very fast to get minimum slippage of the cutch disks! Too slow and it's a rebuild!
The Liberty trans is more like the inside of a DCT (or standard trans) with straight cut, efficient spur gears. It's shifted with dog clutches and again you need a heavy hand as no clutch is used when shifting. Reminded of "in the day" when we ground off some of the teeth on a synchro hub and shifted without a clutch. Just had to repair the trans often!
Had a similar issue when I bought my S10. Found a new one a state away in the Chevy system with every option I wanted including a standard shift. Don't sell many around here. It was a step-side, with HD sustention, larger sway bars front and back, an extra "hop shock" to help with spring wrap -up, posi, aluminum wheels with wider tires with the Chevy V6 essentially a small block with two cylinders cut-off.
Dealer in the area said he could get it as it had been sitting at that dealer for a while, he stated probably has the issues as around hear, no way could I sell it with a standard shift! He was upset that to cut the deal he had to swap an automatic S-10 he had on his lot. He paid a retired guy to drive his truck a few hundred miles and drive mine back!
Had the similar issue with my first Vette, a 1988. After I agreed on a deal with the sales manager for a car he would order for me, he said, "I'll have to ask for a none refundable $2000 as if you decide not to take it I'll need that to sell a standard shift around here! No problem for me!
I like the semi-retro look of the step side trucks This my 1998 Ranger V6 5MT 4X4. Bought brand new for $15,000 + T&T.
20 years on & it still looks as good as new. Very good on parts. Replaced clutch disc, pressure plate, throw-out bearing, fuel pump, alternator, transfer case shift motor, A/C compressor & dryer. All at home.
On the DCT/8ZF for drag racing, agree they are faster & the only way to go if you are serious. Was one of the last MT's running at Englishtown with my '67 StingRay. Very hard to compete against them.
Had to laugh reading the posts, also did a "Slick Shift" modification on one of my cars, back in the day.
Last edited by BEAR-AvHistory; 03-13-2019 at 11:01 AM.
What difference is it if you use paddles to row through the gears Vs a stick? None. Gear changes are still accomplished through driver control and you still get to exhibit your driving skill or in some cases lack thereof.
So, how do you take the DCT out of <say> 6th gear and leave it in neutral for <say> 20 seconds, then put it in <say> 2nd with a single movement of your hand?
^^ As I use on the Interstate 7th to 4th casually (~ 1 to 2 seconds) then back the same way. Same in town when making a turn from 5th directly to 3rd- casually. Flipping the pedal twice is OK but don't need that step in another gear.
Some DCT do skip gears based on the acceleration, declaration rates etc. But that is a computer "guessing" what I want when a simple gated shifter using Hall sensors could accomplish exactly what I want. All non mechanical.
I agree with everything said here. If I were looking for a track car, I'd want the DCT. It's the proper tool for that job. For my street, fun, daily-driver, I still prefer the manual, stop-and-go traffic and all.
I totally agree with you. That is why I have a '78 911 and a '71 C3 4 speed. I love driving classic cars.
But the question here is would you not buy a new C8 if it only had a DCT? There is no option. Either buy it or buy something else.
My guess is, most buyers on the fence will say..."gees, I rather have a manual, but I can live with the DCT"
I totally agree with you. That is why I have a '78 911 and a '71 C3 4 speed. I love driving classic cars.
But the question here is would you not buy a new C8 if it only had a DCT? There is no option. Either buy it or buy something else.
My guess is, most buyers on the fence will say..."gees, I rather have a manual, but I can live with the DCT"
I have the M7 and live in the suburbs of Chicago. There's traffic here, but that still doesn't stop me from enjoying rowing the gears. I just don't get the same feeling in the car with an auto that I do with the manual.
I agree JCP 911s, to have more fun while driving is what it's all about for me. In regards to the C8, I am sure GM even though they have made some costly mistakes in the past and the money they have invested in tooling for the C8 it will come with paddles or manual. I myself not interested in a C8, especially the first year of production. To me a C8 would corner better on the track but for just normal driving can't see paying the extra money. A C7 Stingray will be fine for me. Come on spring, getting cabin fever.
I have to admit this was a good try! But in fact "manual" in reference to a "manual transmission" is not a reference to the root of the word "manual" or "hand". It's in reference to the definition of manual being, "worked or done by hand and NOT machine; requiring or using physical skill and energy"
As an exercise in existential semantics, everything in a car is done by a machine. The wheels are driven by an engine. The steering uses a shaft and gears. In 1890's it was called an "automobile" because it moved by itself. ("auto" mobile).
Technically, a hammer is a machine... the lever... one of the simple machines of ancient times. It multiplies the force one can generate by "Hand".
I drove an Acura GSR 5 speed for nearly 20 years and now I have an A8 Grand Sport. Don't get me wrong I love my GS but to be honest I really miss the manual. It is not even about old tech vs new tech or what is better. It is more about the feeling you get when you entire body is moving to get the car going. Left foot pushing the clutch while you time the gas with your right. Slamming the gear shift through the gears with your right hand as you steer with your left. The connection to the car can be very visceral. I miss it If they do have a manual option for the C8 I will probably go back to it...
I totally agree and think Corvette will lose buyers if it does away with the manual transmission. It isn't about which tranny is a tick faster. How many of us race? It is about feel, the driving experience. I have a 2017 GS convertible with 8 sp. manual. I have a convertible for the driving experience. I ordered the manual trans for the same reason. As far as future value goes, who knows? Ferrari stopped making cars with manual transmissions with the 2005 360. Now the 360s with manual trannies are worth about 25% more than the automatics.
I don't see how one can make that distinction. Both the A8 and a DCT route the power through various sets of gears, but neither does this via the driver moving gears or clutches via a mechanical linkage.
Your throttle is controlled by an electric motor and not mechanically by a cable any longer... is your throttle now automatic? No, its manually controlled through an electronic actuator same as a DCT.
I agree jefnvk DCTs are faster shifting than a manual, but not as much pleasure as shifting those gears and hearing the exhaust roar. I don't plan on ever going on a drag strip or a track but it's all in shifting those gears that matters to me. As they say to each his own.
If they do, which is not confirmed, I think they will be making a mistake. If it happens, it's entirely possible they'll have to reconsider as happened with BMW and Porsche when they eliminated that option on certain models. They ended up bringing it back after blowback.
It would likely stop me from purchasing one for myself, but my wife might be interested. I have a lot of experience with both DCT and the excellent ZF8 on previous cars I've owned, and I got bored. It's just not the same for me.
Last summer I had my Porsche in for servicing. The best thing they did for me was to give me a Porsche with a PDK tranny as my loaner. I live about 45 minutes from the dealership. For the first 15 minutes I thought that the automated manual was fantastic, the next minutes it was OK, and for the last 15 minutes I put it in automatic mode and was down right bored. I couldn't wait to get my MT back. My fear is that if I took a short test drive, it's likely that I would have ordered my next car with that tranny.
I am really hoping for a three pedals but realize it's wishful thinking at this point. But if Chevy is thinking enough or even some of the M7 group will be won over by the DCT, it would help of the dealers would allow test drives. Not one single dealership offered a test drive in their new C7s.
I thought of getting a C7 but had to go to carMax to drive a 3 year old stingray M7. As much as i wanted go buy a ZR1 or even a Z06, I couldnt convince myself to spend this kind of money on a new car that I can't test drive first. I've seen 1 2019 ZR1 in AZ and the most I could do was sit in it.
Its difficult to see if I'd like a corvette with a DCT if I can't even get a test drive in one. Waiting for a used one to show up at carMax makes it hard to stay interested.
03-13-2019, 12:46 AM
As I use on the Interstate 7th to 4th casually (~ 1 to 2 seconds) then back the same way. Same in town when making a turn from 5th directly to 3rd- casually. Flipping the pedal twice is OK but don't need that step in another gear.
If they do have a manual option for the C8 I will probably go back to it...
